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Counts-as and Proxy are basically the same thing and are terms casually interchangeable.


Length of using something like a beer bottle as a model would certainly come into things for most players. If you really can never afford any models at all then warhammer might not be the hobby for you if all you can ever turn up with is your collection of beer bottle models. Of course some players won't mind, but you can bet many might get a little offput - then again if you are seriously keen and seriously that short of pocket a game club might help you build up a force from some donations.

But honestly such situations are very rare. In general proxy/counts-as tends to be a shorter term thing.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Both are examples of using something other than the "proper" model. The meaning of "proxy" covers both examples, and the phrase "this Irn Bru can counts as a Dreadnought " is just as valid as "this Penitent Engine counts as a Dreadnought".

No it does not in the context of this hobby. I've already explained that. Please stop being so obtuse, this discussion has happened so many times over the years I fail to see how it has not sunk in.

One is a permanent sub that fits with the flavour of the army.
One is a temporary sub that is done due to wanting to try something out, lack of funds, whatever. Etc.

These are not the same. What is so difficult to understand about this?

I've been wargaming since 1990, and this is the first time I've encountered such a separation of the terminology, so it's not anything to do with the context of my hobby. Must be an internet thing. Thank you for the explanation, although the personal insult was unnecessary. I'll forgo hitting the yellow button this time.

I REALLY REALLY want to put the "andy dufresne vs the warden" lines here I wouldnt take "obtuse" as an insult that being said, I will play against whatever is on the other side of the table from me, but I do expect you to make it clear (maybe with a sticky or something) what the heck its supposed to be.

It depends what you want out of the hobby.

For me personally, if we're going to play a game using beer bottles, coke cans and highlighters to represent models, then why even collect models in the first place? Let's put coloured pebbles on the table and play spreadsheet-hammer.

A lot of my enjoyment comes from the narrative of the game coming to life being represented by the actual models etc to tell a story. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people playing with proxies and wouldn't care what they do if they enjoy their time - but I'd politely decline the game and play against someone else.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
It depends what you want out of the hobby.

For me personally, if we're going to play a game using beer bottles, coke cans and highlighters to represent models, then why even collect models in the first place? Let's put coloured pebbles on the table and play spreadsheet-hammer.

A lot of my enjoyment comes from the narrative of the game coming to life being represented by the actual models etc to tell a story. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people playing with proxies and wouldn't care what they do if they enjoy their time - but I'd politely decline the game and play against someone else.

sometimes you are in places where you dont have a lot of options I have played rogue trader in adak alaska with paper cutouts, that was all we had.

To answer the OP, I don’t think it’s up to me to prevent someone else from doing anything with their army. I suppose, unless I owned a store or gaming space, I shouldn’t have a say in what’s allowed.

As for playing against stuff, I don’t want to say I don’t care, because I’d rather play against a beautifully painted army that is what it’s supposed to be. But really, I’ll play against the coke bottles or paper cutouts if someone just can’t afford to buy minis or doesn’t have what they need yet.

As for WYSIWYG in terms of loadouts, I really couldn’t care less,

I never have problems with proxies or counts as because my force and that of my opponent is always WYSIWYG.

But I once ran into a very casual gamer that wanted to proxy an Ork Trukk with a box lid. I just refused the game and told him that he shouldn´t bother with infantry minis at all and use beer bottle caps instead.

I'm not a fan of proxies really unless it is someone looking to try something before they buy it and even then I'd see if they could borrow one rather than plonk something else down on the table. Likewise I'm not a fan of counts-as unless absolutely necessary.

One time a player in Ft. Wayne ran a unit of Hormagaunts as a unit of Howling Banshees so he could test run the unit before committing to a purchase. That was cool, as there was no mistaking what he was trying to run and what it counted as.

On the same token, a different player in the same gaming group at that store brought in an entire Warzone army trying to proxy it as Imperial Guard. The issue I had with it was trying to figure out what weapon was what. THIS took it too far.


I'm fine with proxies as long as there's no real confusion as far as function, and as long as it doesn't become a permanent resident.

 Just Tony wrote:
One time a player in Ft. Wayne ran a unit of Hormagaunts as a unit of Howling Banshees so he could test run the unit before committing to a purchase. That was cool, as there was no mistaking what he was trying to run and what it counted as.

On the same token, a different player in the same gaming group at that store brought in an entire Warzone army trying to proxy it as Imperial Guard. The issue I had with it was trying to figure out what weapon was what. THIS took it too far.


I'm fine with proxies as long as there's no real confusion as far as function, and as long as it doesn't become a permanent resident.

Have a similar guy in my group that seems to be using Dust tactics models or what not. I like them, they're cool, but I for the life of me can't tell the difference at times. It's frustrating until I ask him if he has the actual models.

And he does.

As for the subject of the thread, as per usual, it's subjective. Casual games are generally free for all, within reason. 'Competitive' arenas, where there are prizes and the rules are generally watched for, I would like either an official model, or one that is distinct in what it is, and recognizable as what it is supposed to be.

If it's the counts as type, like they've obviously put in work to make something cool then I'd always allow it. If it's still easy to track but something just proxying for something else, to test out a unit before buying it, I'd allow it as well but not expect to see it for long before they got the actual models.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
It depends what you want out of the hobby.

For me personally, if we're going to play a game using beer bottles, coke cans and highlighters to represent models, then why even collect models in the first place? Let's put coloured pebbles on the table and play spreadsheet-hammer.

A lot of my enjoyment comes from the narrative of the game coming to life being represented by the actual models etc to tell a story. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people playing with proxies and wouldn't care what they do if they enjoy their time - but I'd politely decline the game and play against someone else.

This is my position too. There’s no right or wrong answer to this question, as different people want different things out of the hobby. Nothing wrong though with deciding what works for you and doing things that way.

I generally proxie all my SOB heavy flamers (I mostly have Multmeltas). So proxies are fine within reason but I had a made who wanted to proxie half his army because he packed the wrong minis. I had to say no because there was no way anybody was going to be able to work out what was what.

 amazingturtles wrote:
I just used a turtle in place of a dreadnought

but it seemed right

More than right. Perfect.

 DeffDred wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
I just used a turtle in place of a dreadnought

but it seemed right

More than right. Perfect.

How the did you get it to stay still and allow measuring?? gawd forbid trying to measure from its mouth (or even worse its other end)?

Cigarette pack Rhino, the stuff of legends.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
I just used a turtle in place of a dreadnought

but it seemed right

More than right. Perfect.

How the did you get it to stay still and allow measuring?? gawd forbid trying to measure from its mouth (or even worse its other end)?

Before they destroyed the majority of their own forums (why PP why!) there used to be a fun thread on the Privateer Press forums with the rules for Feline Intervention during games.

 Overread wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 amazingturtles wrote:
I just used a turtle in place of a dreadnought

but it seemed right

More than right. Perfect.

How the did you get it to stay still and allow measuring?? gawd forbid trying to measure from its mouth (or even worse its other end)?

Before they destroyed the majority of their own forums (why PP why!) there used to be a fun thread on the Privateer Press forums with the rules for Feline Intervention during games.

My cats never lose a battle, ever....vicious little brutes that they are.

I use Kairic Acolytes (with no conversion at all) in place of 40k Tzaangors because I hate how goatmen look. Nobody has ever complained.

i'll play against pretty much anything, bottlecaps with sharpie saying m for tac marine no problem. that said I honestly like nicely done conversions better than some actual models. I kit bashed my warboss on a bike from a wartraxx, a aobr warboss, some green stuff, a Gretchen model chopped up with a fedora as the warboss's cheafer (gretchin drives he rides on the back platform to hit things with his claw), and various other ork bitz. it is not an official gw model and I guess not a proxy but a counts as, but people usually love the kitbashed warboss.

As long as it's the same base size and general idea of what it's meant to be I'm fine.

For example, I proxy a chaos warshrine for fantasy as a vortex beast because the model is still outta stock. Same base size so it's all good