Tournament time limits

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**Primark G**

I have a free app that works fine on my phone. Just make sure it’s fully charged.

**tneva82**

Primark G wrote:
I have a free app that works fine on my phone. Just make sure it’s fully charged.

Which is easier said than done in tournaments. My phone won't survive 3 game tournament if screen has to be on(which it has to be for app to be usable). It's out of battery before 3rd game is even halfway.

Not to mention hitting accurately on those screens isn't easiest thing either. Button better be pretty much screen sized so I don't have to aim for specific spot on the screen.

**kronk**

Moving on from chess clocks for a moment.

If people aren’t finishing games at 2000 point in 2.5 hours, then drop the points to 1850 or 1500.

Yes people will gripe, but you will get the games played to completion.

**Primark G**

That’s quite a novel suggestion did you think it up?

**Mushkilla**

Not sure if this has already been posted but the GW grand tournament is dropping to 1750 points.

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/the-official-2018-2019-warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

Won't stop slow play. But it should mean both slow to play lists and quick to play lists should both have a better chance of going the full 5-7 turns, even in a chess clocks environment.

**JimOnMars**

It should make slow play more obvious, if nothing else.

**zedsdead**

tneva82 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
I have a free app that works fine on my phone. Just make sure it’s fully charged.

Which is easier said than done in tournaments. My phone won't survive 3 game tournament if screen has to be on(which it has to be for app to be usable). It's out of battery before 3rd game is even halfway.

Not to mention hitting accurately on those screens isn't easiest thing either. Button better be pretty much screen sized so I don't have to aim for specific spot on the screen.

Buy a Digital chess clock on Amazon and include it in your gear.

Ive spent hundreds of Dollars on Dice and Gaming Aids. $20 is a small price to pay for a better gaming experience.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mushkilla wrote:
Not sure if this has already been posted but the GW grand tournament is dropping to 1750 points.

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/the-official-2018-2019-warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

Won't stop slow play. But it should mean both slow to play lists and quick to play lists should both have a better chance of going the full 5-7 turns, even in a chess clocks environment.

why ? do you really think 250pts of Orks or AM is going to make that big of a difference in a Horde List ?...nah

**alextroy**

Cutting the points value of the AM CP farm from a list will make no difference?

**Audustum**

Jidmah posted this in General Discussion and I think it's relevant here. MtG has more players than 40k so we can't say this solution is a turnoff to the public at large and it doesn't prejudice the system even further against elite armies or promote skew lists like lowering points.

Jidmah wrote:
ravenerioli wrote:
Haven't had much tourney experience myself but do you guys find most matches don't get past 3 turns? Do you think it would be good for the game if people didn't take 90 plaguebearers or 150 cultist lists to speed the game up? IMO while horde lists are strongly competitive and viable they're more suited to playing one off games with mates, or leagues. Too many people take forever and easily end up being on objectives and winning that way with hordes that would get wiped out if the game went for 6 turns. Have you guys ever heard of tournaments where they cap the unit limit to 60 models or something to speed it up? Is 2000 points too much for 2-3 hours of play on average to play a game to 6 turns? I'm sure this has been discussed plenty but I'm new to tournaments and want to get some feedback on all of this, cheers

The answer is pretty simple:
Sanction the player, not the army.

If you're fast enough to play 400 gretchin in a 2k game and still finish turn 5, go play it. If you can't finish turn 3 despite playing pure custodes, you should be punished for it just like any horde player.
Tournament organizers and judges need start to actively fight slow play. Providing chess clocks to make sure both players get the same game time is one way to do it, but having experienced judges that identify and punish slow play is just as effective, if not more.

Here are two articles on handling slow play slow play in MtG. Especially at low profile events like pre-releases, stalling used to be a common practice to turn losses into ties, and in return placing a lot higher than players that scored losses and thus improving the chances of getting rewards. In the last years this practice as all but disappeared from competitive MtG.

If you can wrap your head around the few things that don't apply to WH40k, you can learn a lot from them:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/practical-approach-slow-play-2007-09-24
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/playerexperience/2016/11/02/slow-play-myths-and-truths/
Note that MtG differentiates between stalling (intentionally wasting time) and slow play (just playing slow with no intention behind it). You can get sanctioned for just honestly playing slow at events that are not meant to be entry-level.

The TL;DR of those articles is that you should be able to finish your game(s) within the time limit no matter what. Complex situations usually don't appear out of nowhere, so you should not start to think something through when you are supposed to take action.
To quote one of the articles: "The important thing is not whether a player is ending the game as fast as possible, but whether they are making their decisions in a reasonable amount of time." You can extend that to moving, rolling dice and measuring.

Last, but not least, if a game or a player has already noticed to be slow playing or even stalling, a judge needs to closely monitor what's going on an follow up on any warnings they gave out with hard punishments up to game losses or even DQs.

**zedsdead**

alextroy wrote:
Cutting the points value of the AM CP farm from a list will make no difference?

in play time ?...nope. An AM CP farm costs 182. Thats a tiny price to pay for 5 regenerating CPs

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

If you're fast enough to play 400 gretchin in a 2k game and still finish turn 5, go play it. If you can't finish turn 3 despite playing pure custodes, you should be punished for it just like any horde player.

Tournament organizers and judges need start to actively fight slow play. Providing chess clocks to make sure both players get the same game time is one way to do it, but having experienced judges that identify and punish slow play is just as effective, if not more.

Last, but not least, if a game or a player has already noticed to be slow playing or even stalling, a judge needs to closely monitor what's going on an follow up on any warnings they gave out with hard punishments up to game losses or even DQs.

**alextroy**

zedsdead wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Cutting the points value of the AM CP farm from a list will make no difference?

in play time ?...nope. An AM CP farm costs 182. Thats a tiny price to pay for 5 regenerating CPs

Yes. But if you have to cut 250 points and the AM CP Farm stays, what's going to be cut instead? Will having that removed from a list not speed up play?

I'm no expert in the competitive 40K, but I've yet to notice smaller games not being faster. And if 1750 isn't enough to make the game faster, then maybe 1500 is the answer?

**easysauce**

If the game is meant to actually be competitive, fair, and a showing of skill then time limits would need to be into a "what ever it takes to bring the game to the final turn", no matter how long it took to finish.

There would also have to be "weight" (point) classes like 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, points to ensure often unused strategies (IE hordes) get to be used to effect.

**greyknight12**

easysauce wrote:
If the game is meant to actually be competitive, fair, and a showing of skill then time limits would need to be into a "what ever it takes to bring the game to the final turn", no matter how long it took to finish.

Exactly, which is why the “just play faster/use a chess clock” mantra doesn’t really hold up.

**Primark G**

greyknight12 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
If the game is meant to actually be competitive, fair, and a showing of skill then time limits would need to be into a "what ever it takes to bring the game to the final turn", no matter how long it took to finish.

Exactly, which is why the “just play faster/use a chess clock” mantra doesn’t really hold up.

I would agree if everyone could finish a game in 2 1/2 hours but obviously that is not the case. I am glad to see some TOs finally addressing slow play.

**Audustum**

greyknight12 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
If the game is meant to actually be competitive, fair, and a showing of skill then time limits would need to be into a "what ever it takes to bring the game to the final turn", no matter how long it took to finish.

Exactly, which is why the “just play faster/use a chess clock” mantra doesn’t really hold up.

I kind of disagree. Chess is highly competitive and yet the players have timers with an auto-loss should those timers reach 0. Adding the timers just forces people to learn to play faster (and thus show off their skill at thinking quickly and decisively under pressure).

**Peregrine**

Audustum wrote:
Adding the timers just forces people to learn to play faster (and thus show off their skill at thinking quickly and decisively under pressure).

It really doesn't. Unlike in chess, where the execution of a move takes a few seconds at most, in miniatures games the primary clock factor is being able to move models, roll dice, etc, fast enough. That stuff has nothing to do with strategic thinking and being better at the game than your opponent, it's pure logistics of playing a game with a complex array of physical pieces to move around the table.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

zedsdead wrote:
What should have happened and what should happen going forward is: After every game players record the turns they play..on there score sheets. TOs take note of 2-3 turn games. After Game 2 if a PLAYER IS IN VIOLATION, they get a time clock for the duration of the Tournament...plain and simple.

So if you're stuck playing against a slow opponent and can't finish your game you get penalized with a clock? No.

**JimOnMars**

How about using chess clocks, but you get more time if you bring more models? Not a linear scale, that would be ridiculous, but something like this:

1-40 models = 60 minutes
41-60 = 65
61-80 = 70
81-100 = 75
100-140 = 80
141 + = 85

**Ordana**

JimOnMars wrote:
How about using chess clocks, but you get more time if you bring more models? Not a linear scale, that would be ridiculous, but something like this:

1-40 models = 60 minutes
41-60 = 65
61-80 = 70
81-100 = 75
100-140 = 80
141 + = 85

"This is a general announcement. The tournament is delayed for 40 minutes because 2 ork players were paired against eachother. If this happens again next round we will be cancelling round 5 because we don't have access to the venue for that long".

**zedsdead**

Peregrine wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Adding the timers just forces people to learn to play faster (and thus show off their skill at thinking quickly and decisively under pressure).

It really doesn't. Unlike in chess, where the execution of a move takes a few seconds at most, in miniatures games the primary clock factor is being able to move models, roll dice, etc, fast enough. That stuff has nothing to do with strategic thinking and being better at the game than your opponent, it's pure logistics of playing a game with a complex array of physical pieces to move around the table.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

zedsdead wrote:
What should have happened and what should happen going forward is: After every game players record the turns they play..on there score sheets. TOs take note of 2-3 turn games. After Game 2 if a PLAYER IS IN VIOLATION, they get a time clock for the duration of the Tournament...plain and simple.

So if you're stuck playing against a slow opponent and can't finish your game you get penalized with a clock? No.

I said after game 2. Sure there is a chance that you have come up against 2 rounds of horde armies or slow playing opponents. ( the TO should take that into consideration). Time clocks arent a penalty BTW. I would assume this unfortunate player would have no problem with a time clock playing against a different army.. If he does maybe he is part of the problem.