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HMint wrote:
It's not on my army lists though??? Obviously.
PL are so arbitrary, now I am forced to use them even in points games. I do not like this.
PL was ok when I was allowed to ignore its existance.

So...write it down. It's not arbitrary. It's a rough calculation of the unit strength and an easy guideline for deepstrikers.

Lots of interesting changes... completely changes building army lists, and definitely moves the power scale quite substantially. Can;t wait for the points and all that!

With the changes to CP. Guard got aassive buff
As the army that can spam CP has even more CP to spam with.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
BETA - full half by units and PL ON THE TABLE!

If it arrives FIRST TURN ONLY IN YOUR DEPLOYMENT ZONE.

So basically, shooting armies are buffed, melee armies are nerfed?

No more tying things up with T1 deepstrike+charge; meanwhile, you can still T1 blast from all the way across the table.

I thought Orks would still have "Da' Jump", but seeing as how they deployed as per reinforcements - we'll see what the FAQ's wording is.

Well that wss boring. Everything seemed pretty well thought out... now I have nothing to complain about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

HMint wrote:
It's not on my army lists though??? Obviously.
PL are so arbitrary, now I am forced to use them even in points games. I do not like this.
PL was ok when I was allowed to ignore its existance.

So...write it down. It's not arbitrary. It's a rough calculation of the unit strength and an easy guideline for deepstrikers.

Huh? only caught like the last 2-3 mins of the stream cos i was driving home from work.. What's this about PL?

So deep-strike protection is less reliable now, since you have to wait until Turn 2 to drop in outside of your own DZ if I understand correctly?

Well.. with only watching the stream and listening to them describe things and not having read it myself. I am happy with what they mentioned! It all sounded good.

Terrible Q&A though... answered like 2 questions from chat.

Is it over?

I don't think I like the deepstrike change.
Feels like they fethed up deepstriking this edition and now that its not a single rule they can tweak they just slam a dumb restriction on it rather then fix dozens of individual rules.

Not being able to meaningfully Deepstrike turn 1 feths up so many armies/units.

I'm worried that these changes mean that if your army can't cross the table T1, such as Tyranids/Genestealer madness (do they need to deepstrike The Swarmlord for this?), or reach out and touch someone, such as Imperial Guard; you're dead in the water?

Deepstriking nerfed to deployment zone on T1 is a massive blow to any army that relied on getting in range, especially those that are close-combat based (Orks, Da' Jump).

Oh, nevermind that Imperial Guard are getting even MORE CPs from the detachment changes apparently.

I'm not quite sure that whole bit about 'Alpha Strike' made a lot of sense.
They started out with how there are so many guns in the game and those guns tend to blow your stuff off the table turn 1.
Which of course means they need to limit deepstrike...?
Last time I checked most of those guns fire across the table no problem and don't need deepstrike.

I guess they specifically meant CC alpha strike?

 Ordana wrote:
I don't think I like the deepstrike change.
Feels like they fethed up deepstriking this edition and now that its not a single rule they can tweak they just slam a dumb restriction on it rather then fix dozens of individual rules.

Not being able to meaningfully Deepstrike turn 1 feths up so many armies/units.

On the other hand putting more on the table and deploying it aggressively is more doable since you don't have to worry about getting stuff in your face.

So screens to prevent getting obliterated in CC 1st turn have become less important. We might have some armies that have a chance to shoot something now.

Disappointed it's a beta rule for the keywords limitations... The problem is multiple different faction detachments, not mixing in the same. You already lose too much boni when doing that. And if it's a beta rule half the players won't like it and will say they don't have to apply it, will feel great in LGS.

 Aaranis wrote:
So screens to prevent getting obliterated in CC 1st turn have become less important. We might have some armies that have a chance to shoot something now.

Disappointed it's a beta rule for the keywords limitations... The problem is multiple different faction detachments, not mixing in the same. You already lose too much boni when doing that. And if it's a beta rule half the players won't like it and will say they don't have to apply it, will feel great in LGS.

Big tournies will take up the Beta rules and eventually they'll become standard after tweaking.

True. I feel like Blood Angels are gonna feel that the most. Isn't that their entire schtick!?

Glad my Scions will still be useful. Will just have to rely on my Guardsmen to withstand the storm before they drop in and deal with the tough stuff.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I don't think I like the deepstrike change.
Feels like they fethed up deepstriking this edition and now that its not a single rule they can tweak they just slam a dumb restriction on it rather then fix dozens of individual rules.

Not being able to meaningfully Deepstrike turn 1 feths up so many armies/units.

On the other hand putting more on the table and deploying it aggressively is more doable since you don't have to worry about getting stuff in your face.

Right. Part of the double-whammy of a good alpha strike army was forcing you to deploy screens/expendables in front of stuff, and then nuking the stuff off the board because it couldn't effectively move up through its own screens. At least now, they've neutered the double-whammy, which means that all that is required to balance the game is making super long-ranged "reach out and touch you" shooting either more expensive or less lethal. It's half the problem solved.

Or, they could reduce lethality.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I don't think I like the deepstrike change.
Feels like they fethed up deepstriking this edition and now that its not a single rule they can tweak they just slam a dumb restriction on it rather then fix dozens of individual rules.

Not being able to meaningfully Deepstrike turn 1 feths up so many armies/units.

Aaranis wrote:So screens to prevent getting obliterated in CC 1st turn have become less important. We might have some armies that have a chance to shoot something now.

Disappointed it's a beta rule for the keywords limitations... The problem is multiple different faction detachments, not mixing in the same. You already lose too much boni when doing that. And if it's a beta rule half the players won't like it and will say they don't have to apply it, will feel great in LGS.

On the other hand putting more on the table and deploying it aggressively is more doable since you don't have to worry about getting stuff in your face.

Meanwhile, shooting armies can still shoot you, same as always. This just means they can obliterate MORE of your army on the first turn; and they're less punished by going second - your melee units won't be in range to stop them, even if they don't go first.

 Ordana wrote:
I don't think I like the deepstrike change.
Feels like they fethed up deepstriking this edition and now that its not a single rule they can tweak they just slam a dumb restriction on it rather then fix dozens of individual rules.

Not being able to meaningfully Deepstrike turn 1 feths up so many armies/units.

Yeah but it also frees up a lot of other armies. No longer mandatory to spam-shield your deployment zone. Making it less mandatory to have those cheap screens. Could make some interesting changes in army builds.

Any bets on when the GW machines come back online? XD

If I heard correctly they said IG get so many CP anyway that it doesn't even mater if they get more... this kinda just illustrates how the 40k devs think... it's kinda lazy... unless I heard wrong.

 Kelligula wrote:
True. I feel like Blood Angels are gonna feel that the most. Isn't that their entire schtick!?

Glad my Scions will still be useful. Will just have to rely on my Guardsmen to withstand the storm before they drop in and deal with the tough stuff.

BA are basically dead with these deepstrike rules yeah.
They get 1 DC unit across the board turn 1 (using pre-game move). which are out all on their own and no one else will show up until T2 atleast.

Soon(tm).

RIP Grey Knights? I mean, their only viable strategy is to deepstrike and assault, if they are forced to wait for the 2nd turn most likely they will be tabled before their army can get in.

Gunline 40k.

I think that the 50% points on the table is a good enough change, it limits deepstrikes without killing it entirely with the deployment zone limit.

R.I.P. Farsight Enclaves.

I love how people think that no T1 deepstrike = no need for screens, and that army lists will significantly change.

Why?

You still need screens for T2 deepstrikers; and, if you're a gunline, you don't give a feth about needing to move. The only thing will change is that non-gunline armies will have a weaker alpha strike, as more points will need to be spent on durability to weather the first turn alpha strike; meaning less offense, meaning your gunline operates just as well.

MalfunctBot wrote:
Gunline 40k.

I think that the 50% points on the table is a good enough change, it limits deepstrikes without killing it entirely with the deployment zone limit.

R.I.P. Farsight Enclaves.

As long as it's power levels, FSE bombs might survive. Crisis suits cost way more points than power.

If it's points in points games though... rip. That's like 1100 points of deep striking units, minimum.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
With the changes to CP. Guard got aassive buff
As the army that can spam CP has even more CP to spam with.

Guard run out of effective things to do with CP, and they've already been able to soft-cap CP, so it doesn't really matter. What this change DOES matter for is allowing elite Imperial armies not NEED to bring along a CP farm detachment of Guard in order to have enough CP to fuel their stratagems.

 Ordana wrote:

 Kelligula wrote:
True. I feel like Blood Angels are gonna feel that the most. Isn't that their entire schtick!?

Glad my Scions will still be useful. Will just have to rely on my Guardsmen to withstand the storm before they drop in and deal with the tough stuff.

BA are basically dead with these deepstrike rules yeah.
They get 1 DC unit across the board turn 1 (using pre-game move). which are out all on their own and no one else will show up until T2 atleast.

Meh, BA will be fine. They'll use the same old tricks they've been using, they just don't have this one shiny toy. It seems like it's more likely to affect GK than anyone, and they could use some love.