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Yeah, it's like saying "if there are no red pebbles left then all blue pebbles should count as red pebbles for scorin". It doesn't mean the pebbles are red. It just means for that situation the pebbles act as red for scoring only. And if GW themselves say different then they're wrong themselves and don't know their own rules!
That slight change to the mob rule - getting rid of just sharing LD between Ork models - makes the already terrible trukk-mounted Ork boys utterly useless. Their only option for even a tiny amount of morale mitigation was being able to sit next to high-LD characters. Now it's multiple warbosses or nothing - Nobs don't help at all with only a meagre 6+ save against running away... why don't they get 'Breaking Heads' as well?
I've played Speed Freaks since 4th ed and for the first time I can think of, the army is really kind of unplayable. As soon as I switched to a horde build, I've started winning my first games in 8th.
It's sad, part of the reason I liked Orks in the first place was the variety of playstyles. The sooner this mono-build attitude towards Orks goes away, the better. I don't have high hopes for the codex at this point, though, I won't lie. It gives the impression that nobody in the design team is putting much effort toward the faction at all, we keep getting these placeholder patches nobody asked for and no real polish.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 16:16:10
Jambles wrote: That slight change to the mob rule - getting rid of just sharing LD between Ork models - makes the already terrible trukk-mounted Ork boys utterly useless. Their only option for even a tiny amount of morale mitigation was being able to sit next to high-LD characters. Now it's multiple warbosses or nothing - Nobs don't help at all with only a meagre 6+ save against running away... why don't they get 'Breaking Heads' as well?
I've played Speed Freaks since 4th ed and for the first time I can think of, the army is really kind of unplayable. As soon as I switched to a horde build, I've started winning my first games in 8th.
It's sad, part of the reason I liked Orks in the first place was the variety of playstyles. The sooner this mono-build attitude towards Orks goes away, the better. I don't have high hopes for the codex at this point, though, I won't lie. It gives the impression that nobody in the design team is putting much effort toward the faction at all, we keep getting these placeholder patches nobody asked for and no real polish.
I really don't see how this makes any real difference. If you have 2-3 blobs of 12 boyz next to each other, then either one can use the size of a neighbour blob for leadership tests. It is not that we have a lot high LDHQs that are not warbosses anyway.
And yes, it sucks that trukk-boyz are not viable. It sucks a lot.
But the new mobrule has nothing to do with that. A trukk is simply too good/expensive to carry 6 point models around. It either needs to be cheapened, its capacity increased, or a combination. I would love to see a slightly more fragile trukk (with 8 wounds perhaps) costing 50 points including the big shoota. Then the battle-wagon could be the more expensive, durable transport for high value units.
I wouldn't field those trukkz at 40pts let alone 50. Last edition I never used them at 35pts, and the durability increase wasn't significant enough to justify raising their cost by over 150%.
Son of Russ wrote: "as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"
You treat them like they are arriving as reinforcements not that they ARE reinforcements. That's my interpretation anyways, so i think using da jump and gate of infinity will still be legal turn one. Seeing how many people are having a problem with this I am sure GW will FAQ this soon(soon for GW anyways lol).
Hopefully! I'm hoping it's possible as da jump helps with roadblock issues orks can suffer from. With loss of kommandos i would need to buy like 7 more stormboyz sets without
SemperMortis wrote: I wouldn't field those trukkz at 40pts let alone 50. Last edition I never used them at 35pts, and the durability increase wasn't significant enough to justify raising their cost by over 150%.
I coudl write a phd on the cost of Ork trukks. Even before the marine codex we couldn't figure out why the rhino was some how cheaper. Just because it's opened topped doesn't make it 3 times the price it used to be!
Son of Russ wrote: "as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"
You treat them like they are arriving as reinforcements not that they ARE reinforcements. That's my interpretation anyways, so i think using da jump and gate of infinity will still be legal turn one. Seeing how many people are having a problem with this I am sure GW will FAQ this soon(soon for GW anyways lol).
Hopefully! I'm hoping it's possible as da jump helps with roadblock issues orks can suffer from. With loss of kommandos i would need to buy like 7 more stormboyz sets without
Storm boyz are the biggest ripp of GW can come up with. Selling 5 6+ save 40pts in total models for £15 is criminal! You need at least 20 to have a semi useful squad and 60 to play a real speed freaks list! That's almost £200 for 2 units! You can outright get a Ork titan for that or (if you were smart) a completely new army! Even with 20% off (if you found a place tbat does that) that's still £160! I would be upset if they were 10 for £15 but I'd probably buy them.
Ork boyz are so common because they're cheap and come in all different sizes. You can buy 20+ Or boyz for £15. I got all my 120+ boyz for abiut £30... there are so many of them I only got 30 painted. XD and they're all official GW models that range from old to new ork boyz creating a unique look!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 18:41:36
SemperMortis wrote: Kommandos are even worse, you get 5 for $45, and guess what? they cost 45pts A dollar a point apparently.
This is especially annoying because they're not even that much different from boyz... most people just make their own kommandos by painting boyz purple or brown. XD
I've been playing orks in 40k for 30 years near enough and all this whining about the lack of units and that this or that are worth taking or you'd only use this if you were mad is crazy talk and very un-orky. For ever I've had useless units that killed more of my own army than anyone else's and that is the joy of playing orks, you should think like one and play what makes you smile. If you limit yourself to only units that are any 'good' you would have misse out on the joys or 1st edition gems like Storm boyz, madboyz and Kustom vehicles and guns. All which killed so many of my own troops it's crazy. I have always played evil Sunz as my warboss and so all my armies include warbikes and I'm happy the bike boss got a boost. I don't care if they die a lot. Or don't kill much. At least they don't shoot your own troops nowadays. Folks need to chill and if you can't and winning matters that much go play eldar!
SemperMortis wrote: Kommandos are even worse, you get 5 for $45, and guess what? they cost 45pts A dollar a point apparently.
This is especially annoying because they're not even that much different from boyz... most people just make their own kommandos by painting boyz purple or brown. XD
Well at least that problem just vanished.
For the record I was planning to do some capes and cloaks by greenstuff for them and then paint them up in "camoflage". Might still do as bit extra fancy blood axe boyz mob. Maybe magnetize bunch to give them burna in the home games where we can say "screw the faq" and have actual kommandos that are worth a damn.
Andykp wrote: I've been playing orks in 40k for 30 years near enough and all this whining about the lack of units and that this or that are worth taking or you'd only use this if you were mad is crazy talk and very un-orky. For ever I've had useless units that killed more of my own army than anyone else's and that is the joy of playing orks, you should think like one and play what makes you smile. If you limit yourself to only units that are any 'good' you would have misse out on the joys or 1st edition gems like Storm boyz, madboyz and Kustom vehicles and guns. All which killed so many of my own troops it's crazy. I have always played evil Sunz as my warboss and so all my armies include warbikes and I'm happy the bike boss got a boost. I don't care if they die a lot. Or don't kill much. At least they don't shoot your own troops nowadays. Folks need to chill and if you can't and winning matters that much go play eldar!
Zachectomy wrote: Has anyone noticed that Boss Nobs now cost six points?
they always have in 8th
I think some people were taking them for free. Like they were paying for 29 boyz and 1 free nob.
It is a free upgrade, not a free model
Andy and Nazrak, Orkz aren't the fun wacky army anymore. We have literally lost all of our fun rule and are left with bad rules. I mean they can be fun if your a masochist, who wouldn't want to waste an entire shooting phase against a target you can't really hurt because you had to roll for strength after targeting a vehicle. Or, that good old wacky SAG, which used to kill its user more often then its target, thats fun right? No, that is just stupid. The wacky rules were the ones like the old Ramshackle where the vehicle had its own destruction chart and would sometimes take out an entire squad of Space Marines OR kill your own unit next to the trukk as well as the unit inside. That was fun, not the current crap GW is pushing out. I mean hell, even our favorite weirdboy who could turn people into squigs got taken away from us :(
Andykp wrote: I've been playing orks in 40k for 30 years near enough and all this whining about the lack of units and that this or that are worth taking or you'd only use this if you were mad is crazy talk and very un-orky. For ever I've had useless units that killed more of my own army than anyone else's and that is the joy of playing orks, you should think like one and play what makes you smile. If you limit yourself to only units that are any 'good' you would have misse out on the joys or 1st edition gems like Storm boyz, madboyz and Kustom vehicles and guns. All which killed so many of my own troops it's crazy. I have always played evil Sunz as my warboss and so all my armies include warbikes and I'm happy the bike boss got a boost. I don't care if they die a lot. Or don't kill much. At least they don't shoot your own troops nowadays. Folks need to chill and if you can't and winning matters that much go play eldar!
This guy gets it.
You've both missed the point - it's not about playing to win and only taking stuff that's 'meta', it's just being able to play without feeling like it's a waste of time.
I'm not getting upset that I'm losing with Orks - as Nazrak points out, the army has always been perceived as a more 'casual' one - I just find it frustrating when I want to enjoy a game of 40k with my roommate, and it's already basically over by turn 2 and I didn't really get to play. He's feeling the same thing across the table - unless you're a particular type, it's generally not much fun to play a completely one-sided match.
That's my whole point really, freaks just aren't very fun to play currently - in the horde list I bring Lootas, Bikes and Burna Boyz, cause they're my favourite painted models.
Jambles wrote: That slight change to the mob rule - getting rid of just sharing LD between Ork models - makes the already terrible trukk-mounted Ork boys utterly useless. Their only option for even a tiny amount of morale mitigation was being able to sit next to high-LD characters. Now it's multiple warbosses or nothing - Nobs don't help at all with only a meagre 6+ save against running away... why don't they get 'Breaking Heads' as well?
I've played Speed Freaks since 4th ed and for the first time I can think of, the army is really kind of unplayable. As soon as I switched to a horde build, I've started winning my first games in 8th.
It's sad, part of the reason I liked Orks in the first place was the variety of playstyles. The sooner this mono-build attitude towards Orks goes away, the better. I don't have high hopes for the codex at this point, though, I won't lie. It gives the impression that nobody in the design team is putting much effort toward the faction at all, we keep getting these placeholder patches nobody asked for and no real polish.
I really don't see how this makes any real difference. If you have 2-3 blobs of 12 boyz next to each other, then either one can use the size of a neighbour blob for leadership tests. It is not that we have a lot high LDHQs that are not warbosses anyway.
And yes, it sucks that trukk-boyz are not viable. It sucks a lot.
But the new mobrule has nothing to do with that. A trukk is simply too good/expensive to carry 6 point models around. It either needs to be cheapened, its capacity increased, or a combination. I would love to see a slightly more fragile trukk (with 8 wounds perhaps) costing 50 points including the big shoota. Then the battle-wagon could be the more expensive, durable transport for high value units.
You're right - I was clearly not understanding about how the rule worked in the first place. I like the idea of more fragile trukks being a justification for reducing their cost, especially if they bring back the old ramshackle rule for the occasional damage mitigation on a 6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 16:54:02
Zachectomy wrote: Has anyone noticed that Boss Nobs now cost six points?
they always have in 8th
I think some people were taking them for free. Like they were paying for 29 boyz and 1 free nob.
Andy and Nazrak, Orkz aren't the fun wacky army anymore. We have literally lost all of our fun rule and are left with bad rules. I mean they can be fun if your a masochist, who wouldn't want to waste an entire shooting phase against a target you can't really hurt because you had to roll for strength after targeting a vehicle. Or, that good old wacky SAG, which used to kill its user more often then its target, thats fun right? No, that is just stupid. The wacky rules were the ones like the old Ramshackle where the vehicle had its own destruction chart and would sometimes take out an entire squad of Space Marines OR kill your own unit next to the trukk as well as the unit inside. That was fun, not the current crap GW is pushing out. I mean hell, even our favorite weirdboy who could turn people into squigs got taken away from us :(
I'm really back and forth on this. MY random Bubble chukka easily out preformed 5 KMK's in a single game. You do have a point but I just don't know that "redundant" options actually pay off, my dice are like..Nope.
I've found better results with a larger mix of units than playing to any one extreme, which I have done. Once dice are involved you can have as much mathhammer as you want it never seems to matter for me.
So for one am willing to put points back into units that "shouldn't work". Prior to this edition wacky rules just irked my nerves. That old ramshackle rule did not make me happy and was a reason to leave the trukks at home. I think it was fun in one game of 6th edition, I had skipped all but the last few months of 6th edition. It's all subjective really. (A little unfortunate.)
Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds
Andykp wrote: I've been playing orks in 40k for 30 years near enough and all this whining about the lack of units and that this or that are worth taking or you'd only use this if you were mad is crazy talk and very un-orky. For ever I've had useless units that killed more of my own army than anyone else's and that is the joy of playing orks, you should think like one and play what makes you smile. If you limit yourself to only units that are any 'good' you would have misse out on the joys or 1st edition gems like Storm boyz, madboyz and Kustom vehicles and guns. All which killed so many of my own troops it's crazy. I have always played evil Sunz as my warboss and so all my armies include warbikes and I'm happy the bike boss got a boost. I don't care if they die a lot. Or don't kill much. At least they don't shoot your own troops nowadays. Folks need to chill and if you can't and winning matters that much go play eldar!
This guy gets it.
I used to play like this as well but noe that a lot of my army costs more points wise than their more durable space marine counterparts I am okay with being upset. Don't get me wrong, I want to send orks to their death but I can't! Lootas cost the same as immortals, trukks and battlewagons cost more than Marine rhinos and raxor backs, even the mega nobz and nobz are priced like crazy! Most of thr time (when I play mechanized lists) I find my space marine and guardsmen opponents bringing more troops than I did! Right now the Ork index is un orky!
In terms of the lack of “characterful” rules, I agree to an extent at the moment (particularly with regard to the Shokk Attack Gun, a long-time fave of mine), but I think on that front, we just need to hold tight for our Codex. Someone had to be last out of the gate, but we can be fairly sure it’s coming sooner rather than later, and it’s only what, nine months since 8th dropped?
The fun randomness of Orks used to have a much better weighting of risk versus reward, IMO. They were a gamblin' army - they risked more harm to themselves, so when the dice gods smiled upon them the results were more devastating. Maybe your Shokk Attack gun would just explode, or maybe it would completely annihilate a unit of Terminators (back when that actually meant something).
Somewhere along the way, that was commuted into just introducing a high chance of failure to everything they do, with none of the spectacular payoff when things go their way. Even the interesting weaponry is crippled - like, even if you roll four sixes with a bubble-chukka, you've got pretty good odds of still doing no damage with it. For the most part, Orks just have slightly worse versions of common weaponry, and they use it badly.
They really need to inject a lot more into the "reward" side of the trade-off.
kadeton wrote: The fun randomness of Orks used to have a much better weighting of risk versus reward, IMO. They were a gamblin' army - they risked more harm to themselves, so when the dice gods smiled upon them the results were more devastating. Maybe your Shokk Attack gun would just explode, or maybe it would completely annihilate a unit of Terminators (back when that actually meant something).
Somewhere along the way, that was commuted into just introducing a high chance of failure to everything they do, with none of the spectacular payoff when things go their way. Even the interesting weaponry is crippled - like, even if you roll four sixes with a bubble-chukka, you've got pretty good odds of still doing no damage with it. For the most part, Orks just have slightly worse versions of common weaponry, and they use it badly.
They really need to inject a lot more into the "reward" side of the trade-off.
100% this. There is virtually no reward for having our objectively worse guns fired from worse platforms.
I mean, I agree with what has been discussed in the thread. Too many random elements without the potential reward to justify it, no good way of transporting boys cheaply in vehicles. (I'm still holding out for that 2 grots per slot in vehicle rule) But several armies have been pretty massively improved when their codex came out, like dark eldar, which was a faction not a lot of people had high hopes for in terms of viability so I'm cautiously optimistic that ork builds other than green tide will get buffed. Due to the random nature of ork stats I never think they'll be objectively good/great but the codex will hopefully bridge the gap between that and where we are now.
PiñaColada wrote: I mean, I agree with what has been discussed in the thread. Too many random elements without the potential reward to justify it, no good way of transporting boys cheaply in vehicles. (I'm still holding out for that 2 grots per slot in vehicle rule) But several armies have been pretty massively improved when their codex came out, like dark eldar, which was a faction not a lot of people had high hopes for in terms of viability so I'm cautiously optimistic that ork builds other than green tide will get buffed. Due to the random nature of ork stats I never think they'll be objectively good/great but the codex will hopefully bridge the gap between that and where we are now.
Problem is GW hasn't shown much interest in orks for years. They had decent(not amazing but decent) army briefly with nob bikers until new codexes vaporized that build. Apart from that generally uninspired mediocre codexes. Not having avid ork fan in develop team hurts(Adrian Smith to the developer team would have been interesting! Maybe then orks would have got characterful codex that doesn't suck)
kadeton wrote: The fun randomness of Orks used to have a much better weighting of risk versus reward, IMO. They were a gamblin' army - they risked more harm to themselves, so when the dice gods smiled upon them the results were more devastating. Maybe your Shokk Attack gun would just explode, or maybe it would completely annihilate a unit of Terminators (back when that actually meant something).
Somewhere along the way, that was commuted into just introducing a high chance of failure to everything they do, with none of the spectacular payoff when things go their way. Even the interesting weaponry is crippled - like, even if you roll four sixes with a bubble-chukka, you've got pretty good odds of still doing no damage with it. For the most part, Orks just have slightly worse versions of common weaponry, and they use it badly.
They really need to inject a lot more into the "reward" side of the trade-off.
This is what a lot of people have been saying for years now and it's made a lot of people jump ship to AoS. I believe it was my friend who said the Skaven dev team would understand Orks the most. I do not play AoS but I hear Skaven are the perfect balance of risk vs reward vs sacrificing lots of troops for fun timez.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: I mean, I agree with what has been discussed in the thread. Too many random elements without the potential reward to justify it, no good way of transporting boys cheaply in vehicles. (I'm still holding out for that 2 grots per slot in vehicle rule) But several armies have been pretty massively improved when their codex came out, like dark eldar, which was a faction not a lot of people had high hopes for in terms of viability so I'm cautiously optimistic that ork builds other than green tide will get buffed. Due to the random nature of ork stats I never think they'll be objectively good/great but the codex will hopefully bridge the gap between that and where we are now.
From my discussions with other members I know i speak for a lot of people when i say a lot of us couldn't give a squig if our codex was good or not. What we want is a fun Orky codex! Orks are a highly unique race in 40k and we want this represented in our army! The index is so boring! Nothing feels unique... I started playing space marines recently and i honestly don't even notice I'm playing a different army sometimes. We want cheap expendable vechiles and rewards! But we don't want them because it's good! We want them because it's the bets feeling in the world when you roll a tripple 6 and mork himself smiles upon the battle feild as your shokk attack gun warps snottlings into the head of girlyman to cause him to explode! Not "well younrolled a 6... I geuss you can now go onto trying to wound like any normal gun now..."
The saddest part is my Morkanaut. He looks cool and has this beig glowing blue gun! I fire it and finally manage to get 6 shots with 3 hits! But now i just wound like a lazz cannon and only do d3 wounds... it just feels like a bad anti tank weapon that took a stupid amount of luck to even use... It doesn't feel like I'm blasting pure energy accross the feild and vaporising elite warriors with the advanced tecknolgy of an ancient race so advanced they basically made most living things in the universe.
Even if i was hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s and doing 6 damage I wouldn't be happy. I do not want to just fire weapons like a marine player! I want cool things! So maybe the gun melts people and splashes onto nearby units, or maybe it pushes enemy units around! Maybe it sets people on fire and causes imperial guards men to physical move backwards on the table as they run in pain (potentially blocking paths for their tactics and causing all kind of orky choas! Hell... maybe when the Morkanaut rolls lots of 1s it causes the weapon to just explode and spray shrapnel everywhere while the Morkanaut continues to use its claw to fight.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 09:59:57
I'm not an ork player but isn't the rule clarification that you can charge up on e.g a first floor building if there's enough space basically a dealbreaker for melee focused orkbuilds?
I'd just park my plaguemarines in the first floor of a building, they're essentially enough to block the whole space and you'll never get me off there unless you shoot me with something very heavy.
mungkorn88 wrote: I'm not an ork player but isn't the rule clarification that you can charge up on e.g a first floor building if there's enough space basically a dealbreaker for melee focused orkbuilds?
I'd just park my plaguemarines in the first floor of a building, they're essentially enough to block the whole space and you'll never get me off there unless you shoot me with something very heavy.
If I brought 200 slugga boyz to a seige game where there was a castle wall and no room for my guys to get up then basically I would have to line up outside the wall and fire 200 5BS S4 shots into you all game until you destroyed my army. So yes... it kinda is...
mungkorn88 wrote: I'm not an ork player but isn't the rule clarification that you can charge up on e.g a first floor building if there's enough space basically a dealbreaker for melee focused orkbuilds?
I'd just park my plaguemarines in the first floor of a building, they're essentially enough to block the whole space and you'll never get me off there unless you shoot me with something very heavy.
Pretty much yeah. Orks best hopes are KMK's and then maybe like tank bustas. Against anything with -1 to hit would be burnas etc but those are expensive(planning squad of 10 with chinork to give 32" flamer range).
But that change is going to screw h2h armies without good shootings quite a lot.
