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topaxygouroun i wrote:
The problem is this:

There is no rule that says "If the unit that can cast powers dies due to perils, then it explodes."

Instead there is a rule that says: "If the psyker dies due to perils, it explodes."

If the rubrics don't lose the keyword when the aspiring dies, then the "pskyer" is not dead due to perils, and therefore never explodes.

I have explained this three times now. Psyker is not the same as PSYKER. The Psyker is the model casting the power. The PSYKER keyword has literally zero rules attached to it, all it does is act as an anchor for other rules to use.

Going to throw my hat into the ring with an attempt of answering this.

We know that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only Psyker, in the unit of Psykers, that can use Psychic powers.

So, step 1 says 'Choose a Psyker and Power'
Well, the rest of your Rubric marines can't manifest Psychic Powers (As per the datasheet). So you select the Aspiring Sorcerer. As such, he becomes THE Psyker.
Choose your power, good to go.

Make your test, and the Aspirign Sorcerer perils. What a dunce.
The rules for Perils of the Warp state:
"If you roll a double 1 or double 6 when taking a psychic test, THE psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. THE Psyker suffers... If THE psyker is slain...as THE psyker is dragged..."

So you have a unit of models, all of which have the Psyker keyword. Cool beans.
A single Psyker, in the mass of Psykers, tries to manifest a power.
That single Psyker perils.

Here is how you resolve.
1) THE Psyker suffers d3 mortal wounds
1.5) If the Psyker dies, then the wounds MIGHT spill over onto the unit. I am not convinced about that.
2) Is the Psyker dead?
No) Manifest psychic power as normal.
Yes) Do I have a rule that changes anything about THE Psyker exploding at death?
Yes) Proceed as rule dictates
No) THE Psyker has died, THE Psyker explodes.

If it was meant to work as a unit thing, it wouldn't say The Pysker. It would say The Psykers. There is no plural, it is only one.

That is how I read it.

Korbee11 wrote:
Going to throw my hat into the ring with an attempt of answering this.

We know that the Aspiring Sorcerer is the only Psyker, in the unit of Psykers, that can use Psychic powers.

So, step 1 says 'Choose a Psyker and Power'
Well, the rest of your Rubric marines can't manifest Psychic Powers (As per the datasheet). So you select the Aspiring Sorcerer. As such, he becomes THE Psyker.
Choose your power, good to go.

Make your test, and the Aspirign Sorcerer perils. What a dunce.
The rules for Perils of the Warp state:
"If you roll a double 1 or double 6 when taking a psychic test, THE psyker immediately suffers Perils of the Warp. THE Psyker suffers... If THE psyker is slain...as THE psyker is dragged..."

So you have a unit of models, all of which have the Psyker keyword. Cool beans.
A single Psyker, in the mass of Psykers, tries to manifest a power.
That single Psyker perils.

Here is how you resolve.
1) THE Psyker suffers d3 mortal wounds
1.5) If the Psyker dies, then the wounds MIGHT spill over onto the unit. I am not convinced about that.
2) Is the Psyker dead?
No) Manifest psychic power as normal.
Yes) Do I have a rule that changes anything about THE Psyker exploding at death?
Yes) Proceed as rule dictates
No) THE Psyker has died, THE Psyker explodes.

If it was meant to work as a unit thing, it wouldn't say The Pysker. It would say The Psykers. There is no plural, it is only one.

That is how I read it.

In this scenario the wounds definitely spill over, it's MW suffered over the same unit. No question about that. Now comes the next part: If all of them are psykers, and the perils kill 3 models, do I get 3 explosions because 3 psykers died through perils?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Korbee11 wrote:

In this scenario the wounds definitely spill over, it's MW suffered over the same unit. No question about that. Now comes the next part: If all of them are psykers, and the perils kill 3 models, do I get 3 explosions because 3 psykers died through perils?

Follow the chart.
Did THE Psyker die?
Note the emphasis on 'the'
Perils doesn't give a hoot about whether A psyker dies, just whether The psyker dies.

Edit: So you would only get an explosion if the Aspiring Sorcerer died.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The problem is this:

There is no rule that says "If the unit that can cast powers dies due to perils, then it explodes."

Instead there is a rule that says: "If the psyker dies due to perils, it explodes."

If the rubrics don't lose the keyword when the aspiring dies, then the "pskyer" is not dead due to perils, and therefore never explodes.

I have explained this three times now. Psyker is not the same as PSYKER. The Psyker is the model casting the power. The PSYKER keyword has literally zero rules attached to it, all it does is act as an anchor for other rules to use.

This puzzles me even more. I am looking through the book right now. Page 178:

1. "Some models are noted as being PSYKER on their datasheet.". This denotes me that every single Rubric Marine in the unit is a psyker, because in their datasheets they have PSYKER.

2. "The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny are detailed in their datasheet." This much is clear: The Aspiring can manifest and deny one power, the remaining models cannot.

3. "Unless stated otherwise, all psykers know the Smite psychic power, listed below. Some know other powers instead of, or in addition to smite." This implies that every single Rubric Marine knows Smite (It is not stated otherwise anywhere). Some psykers (ie the Aspiring), know other powers in addition to Smite. For the record, I think this statement is ridiculous. Also, even if they know Smite, they cannot cast it because in their datasheets states they cannot cast any spells.

4. "If you roll a double 1 or 6....the psyker immediately suffers Perils. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds...If the psyker is slain by Perils, each unit within 6" immediately suffers D3 mortal Wounds." If every model is a psyker (see point 1), aka an individual psyker, then the psyker who rolled the power and got snake eyes suffers the perils. Aka the Aspiring takes D3 mortal wounds. Mortal wounds, page 181: "Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll...just allocate it as you would allocate any other wound." "Unlike normal damage, excess damage from Mortal Wounds is not lost. Keep allocating damage to another model in the same unit...". From this I can see that the wounds definitely spill over. However, I am allowed to allocate the wounds as any other wound, which means I am allowed to kill Rubrics instead of the Aspiring, since they are part of the same unit. If the Aspiring dies, then the model who rolled the snake eyes has died of perils and explodes. If the Aspiring does not die from perils, he does not explode.


So after the above, this is my understanding:

The Aspiring is a psyker in a unit that are psykers. Or not, doesn't matter really. Aspiring casts a spell and rolls snake eyes. Perils! The Aspiring takes d3 Mortal wounds. These mortal wounds I can allocate any way I want, as any other wounds. These mortal wounds spill over to the same unit, because that's what mortal wounds do. So if I allocate a wound to the Aspiring, he will die (because he only has 1) and he will explode because he died due to Perils. However, if I do not allocate wounds to the Aspiring but to the Rubrics, then he does not explode and I am free to cast spells with him again next turn.


What would your opinion be on this?

Yeah, as the above, there's some clunky interactions between the Perils rule (I'm pretty sure it was written assuming that all PSYKER units were singular models) and the Mortal Wounds rule.

1. "Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries."
We see here that PSYKER is a keyword, and then it uses non keyword to refer to it everywhere else. I only note this because it shows that Rubrics are PSYKERs and would not lose this keyword on the death of the AS; call it being charged with warp energies or that they were sorcerors in life, but Inquisition models will get their rerolls agains ASless squads, Culexus will get charged up, etc.

I also think it's pretty clear per above that the Rubrics can't cast anything, only the AS is permitted to per the datasheet.

2. Under Psychic Test, it states: "A psyker can attempt to manifest a psychic power they know by taking a Psychic test.
To do so, roll 2D6."
This is in the singular, and does not state a "psyker unit" or just "a unit", so we must infer that only one psyker takes that test.
Now we see how Perils work, as quoted above: "If you roll a double 1 or 6 when taking a psychic test, the psyker immediately suffers Perils. The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds...If the psyker is slain by Perils, each unit within 6" immediately suffers D3 mortal Wounds."
From the Psychic Test wording, this is all in reference to the singular psyker taking the test, so it is the model that suffers the Perils and the subsequent mortal wounds. Therefore the AS eats the wounds and dies.
However, as stated again above, the mortal wounds rule refers to a unit suffering the wounds, and as the AS is part of a unit and the mortal wounds can be allocated normally, the psyker can shunt the wounds to Rubrics like a right condescending "b-word for jerk" (shorter: Thousand Sons Sorceror) and survive.

I'm sure this is just restating what topaxy said above, I'm just adding a little clarification where I thought was needed and saying: I think the Psychic Test and Perils rules very much so are worded that the AS should suffer the wounds, but when you link them to the Mortal Wounds rules for how to suffer and allocate you get a probably unintended result due to only having one spell-casting model in a PSYKER unit. (GKs do not have this issue since every model in the unit can cast, so allocating mortal wounds to specific models does not matter)

topaxygouroun i wrote:

So after the above, this is my understanding:

The Aspiring is a psyker in a unit that are psykers. Or not, doesn't matter really. Aspiring casts a spell and rolls snake eyes. Perils! The Aspiring takes d3 Mortal wounds. These mortal wounds I can allocate any way I want, as any other wounds. These mortal wounds spill over to the same unit, because that's what mortal wounds do. So if I allocate a wound to the Aspiring, he will die (because he only has 1) and he will explode because he died due to Perils. However, if I do not allocate wounds to the Aspiring but to the Rubrics, then he does not explode and I am free to cast spells with him again next turn.


What would your opinion be on this?

I think not. Perils of the Warp says "the" psyker, referring to the psyker that is manifesting the power, takes d3 mortal wounds. It does not say the PYSKER, which might allow you to spread the wounds around. You start with giving the AS the d3 mortal wounds. If he explodes you follow the rules for perils and inlict another d3 Mortal wounds on each unit within 6". this includes the rest of the Rubrics, who might also have some additional mortal wound slop over from the initial batch of mortal wounds that took out the Aspiring Sorcerer. You do not get subsequent explodes for taking out any Rubrics because Perils was referring specifically to the psyker who tried manifesting a power but screwed the pooch and ended up with Perils of the Warp; he is the only one who causes the explodo when he pops off.

Either the Aspiring is part of the unit or he is not. If he is, the mortal wounds spill over because mortal wounds rule on page 181 but I am able to allocate them because mortal wounds rule on page 181. The mortal wounds rule must be taken as a whole or not at all.

Otherwise, the aspiring is not part of the unit, so the extra wounds do not spill over but the explosion does.

I don't think it's the second case because they are in the same datasheet.

On a side note, I think it's really fluffy and badass for the Aspiring Sorcerer to use the mindless automatons he controls to protect himself from psychic backlash. They are expendable to him anyways.

doctortom wrote:I think not. Perils of the Warp says "the" psyker, referring to the psyker that is manifesting the power, takes d3 mortal wounds. It does not say the PYSKER, which might allow you to spread the wounds around. You start with giving the AS the d3 mortal wounds. If he explodes you follow the rules for perils and inlict another d3 Mortal wounds on each unit within 6". this includes the rest of the Rubrics, who might also have some additional mortal wound slop over from the initial batch of mortal wounds that took out the Aspiring Sorcerer. You do not get subsequent explodes for taking out any Rubrics because Perils was referring specifically to the psyker who tried manifesting a power but screwed the pooch and ended up with Perils of the Warp; he is the only one who causes the explodo when he pops off.

See what I wrote. I agree with you, it's just that the interaction between Perils and Mortal Wounds rules are clunky.

topaxygouroun i wrote:On a side note, I think it's really fluffy and badass for the Aspiring Sorcerer to use the mindless automatons he controls to protect himself from psychic backlash. They are expendable to him anyways.

I completely agree.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Either the Aspiring is part of the unit or he is not. If he is, the mortal wounds spill over because mortal wounds rule on page 181 but I am able to allocate them because mortal wounds rule on page 181. The mortal wounds rule must be taken as a whole or not at all.

Otherwise, the aspiring is not part of the unit, so the extra wounds do not spill over but the explosion does.

I don't think it's the second case because they are in the same datasheet.

On a side note, I think it's really fluffy and badass for the Aspiring Sorcerer to use the mindless automatons he controls to protect himself from psychic backlash. They are expendable to him anyways.

I never siade the mortal wounds don't spill over - don't mistrepresent what I'm saying. The Aspiring Sorcerer takes the D3 mortal wounds because the Perils of the Warp sidebar states "The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds,.." It doesn't say the unit takes D3 mortal wounds, it says the model takes D3 mortal wounds, the psyker who tried to manifest the power. The Mortal Wounds sidebar says nothing about being able to allocate the first mortal wound directed at a pskyer to someone else, so the first wound must be allocated to the Aspiring Sorcerer. You keep doing that until you run out of mortal wounds to allocate or the AS runs out of wounds and dies. Then you get to allocated any excess wounds to the rest of the unit following the mortal wounds rules....as I said previously.

So this is what it comes down to (In my eyes)

Either
A) Since the Perils of the Warp rule specifies that THE Psyker suffers d3 mortal wounds. Which would mean that the AS (as THE Psyker), would suffer the d3 mortal wounds on his lonesome, they are not allocated to the unit. So anything over his wound characteristic does NOT spill over, but you can't shunt them off to the rubrics. If the AS dies, he explodes, but the rest of the unit only suffers the d3, not d3+ovekill.

OR

B) Since the Mortal Wounds rules allows you to allocate them normally, the AS can shunt ALL of them off onto the Rubrics. Only if the AS is killed by the Perils does he then explode. So you could get a situation where the Rubrics suffer d3+overkill in mortal wounds.

I don't think you can do both. Either the Mortal wounds are allocated just to the Psyker, or to the unit.

Korbee11 wrote:
So this is what it comes down to (In my eyes)

Either
A) Since the Perils of the Warp rule specifies that THE Psyker suffers d3 mortal wounds. Which would mean that the AS (as THE Psyker), would suffer the d3 mortal wounds on his lonesome, they are not allocated to the unit. So anything over his wound characteristic does NOT spill over, but you can't shunt them off to the rubrics. If the AS dies, he explodes, but the rest of the unit only suffers the d3, not d3+ovekill.

OR

B) Since the Mortal Wounds rules allows you to allocate them normally, the AS can shunt ALL of them off onto the Rubrics. Only if the AS is killed by the Perils does he then explode. So you could get a situation where the Rubrics suffer d3+overkill in mortal wounds.

I don't think you can do both. Either the Mortal wounds are allocated just to the Psyker, or to the unit.

No, it's C.

C) The psyker manifesting the power suffers the D3 mortal wounds as Perils indicates, overriding the normal wound allocation rules for getting to pick any old schlub in the unit to be the first recipient.. Wounds are allocated to him until he snuffs it, as per wound allocation rules, as only the part about choosing the initial "winner" of the first wound was overridden. After he buys the farm, excess mortal wounds spill over to the rest of the unit as per the rules for mortal wounds. You are told to target a specific model so you have a limitation on the allocation of the first mortal wound. You are not given permission to ignore the mortal wounds rules about shifting excess wounds to the rest of the unit.

EDIT: I used to think they would all go on the psyker, but I was convinced otherwise because there's no mention of overriding the Mortal Wounds rules for dealing with excess mortal wounds.