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epronovost wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Weeeelll, clearly there's some level of canon that exists, otherwise you could say that the whole gathering storm event never happened and Guilliman's resurrection never occurred, that its all imperial propaganda (even though its clear that Cadia is destroyed at this point). It just seems like it doesn't jive your own personal head canon so you try to justify why you think its impossible that Raven Guard are outdone in terms of stealth by Custodes.

Not really, all of this could just be a legendary version of an actual event within the universe that doesn't count gods and monsters, just trillions of dead people. That's how 40K works. We are playing the legends and stories of the 41st millenium, not the 41st history itself.

Okay, then from that viewpoint why is it so crazy that Custodes are better at stealth and infiltration than Raven Guard then? If there is "no canon" why be upset at one interpretation that shows Custodes being more capable than Astartes?

 Grimskul wrote:
Okay, then from that viewpoint why is it so crazy that Custodes are better at stealth and infiltration than Raven Guard then? If there is "no canon" why be upset at one interpretation that shows Custodes being more capable than Astartes?

Have you read my arguments about it? Space Marines are naturally disadvantaged when it comes to stealth due to their size, weight and smell. Custodes are like Space Marines, but even larger, heavier and probably not much better in terms of body odor. Thus they have even greater disadvantage in terms of stealth making training them in it even harder and fundamentaly pointless since they don't need for their job which basically consist in :"don't let anybody, but these three guys with these authorisations pass through that door". I don't like it because it overstretch my suspention of disbelief to a ridiculous point.

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

Following the Battle in the Webway, only a thousand Custodes remained during the end of the Heresy. As they are confirmed to be once again 10 000 strong as of M41, it means that even if ALL of these Horus Heresy survivors survived for 10k years, they only make up 10% of the grand total. That is pretty far from "most of them".

Engrenages wrote:

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

Following the Battle in the Webway, only a thousand Custodes remained during the end of the Heresy. As they are confirmed to be once again 10 000 strong as of M41, it means that even if ALL of these Horus Heresy survivors survived for 10k years, they only make up 10% of the grand total. That is pretty far from "most of them".

Makes sense, on a side note the primarchs peturabo book puts to bed that marines are biologically immortal, Dantioch estimates their lifespan to be around 3k years based on how Hrud temporal fields work.

 Formosa wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

Following the Battle in the Webway, only a thousand Custodes remained during the end of the Heresy. As they are confirmed to be once again 10 000 strong as of M41, it means that even if ALL of these Horus Heresy survivors survived for 10k years, they only make up 10% of the grand total. That is pretty far from "most of them".

Makes sense, on a side note the primarchs peturabo book puts to bed that marines are biologically immortal, Dantioch estimates their lifespan to be around 3k years based on how Hrud temporal fields work.

Marines aren't biologically inmortal but Custodes are. Its on their Codex, the 8th one.

epronovost wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Okay, then from that viewpoint why is it so crazy that Custodes are better at stealth and infiltration than Raven Guard then? If there is "no canon" why be upset at one interpretation that shows Custodes being more capable than Astartes?

I don't like it because it overstretch my suspention of disbelief to a ridiculous point.

"That's like... your opinion, man."

Your suspension of disbelief is your headcanon. Games Workshop have outright said that certain things are true. If you're suggesting that nothing is true, then what's the point of debating 40k when anything is subjective. Space Marines don't exist, because there's no canon, right? Humanity died out in M3. Orks are actually red skinned.
If you assume that anything GW says is just "propaganda", then nothing in 40k can be discussed on a background level.

Speaking of Custodes propaganda, there IS actually mention of it: apparently, every battle the Custodes take part in is recorded as a victory by the Administratum, so that the Custodes look like they've never lost a battle. This is very real propaganda that GW specify that they do. However, this is not mentioned about the Blood Games. In fact, we have books from the perspective of a Custodes IN the Blood Games - how is this propaganda?

Again, your headcanon is fine - but it's still headcanon.

Engrenages wrote:

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

Following the Battle in the Webway, only a thousand Custodes remained during the end of the Heresy. As they are confirmed to be once again 10 000 strong as of M41, it means that even if ALL of these Horus Heresy survivors survived for 10k years, they only make up 10% of the grand total. That is pretty far from "most of them".

Good catch, that's a fair point! However, I don't think the 90% have been sitting around doing nothing - if anything, the 10% have been training them the whole time, and there have been cases where the Custodes have left to do other duties (bodyguarding Imperial officials).

 Galas wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

Following the Battle in the Webway, only a thousand Custodes remained during the end of the Heresy. As they are confirmed to be once again 10 000 strong as of M41, it means that even if ALL of these Horus Heresy survivors survived for 10k years, they only make up 10% of the grand total. That is pretty far from "most of them".

Makes sense, on a side note the primarchs peturabo book puts to bed that marines are biologically immortal, Dantioch estimates their lifespan to be around 3k years based on how Hrud temporal fields work.

Marines aren't biologically inmortal but Custodes are. Its on their Codex, the 8th one.

ummm... well done? it says it in the previous post lol

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Your suspension of disbelief is your headcanon. Games Workshop have outright said that certain things are true. If you're suggesting that nothing is true, then what's the point of debating 40k when anything is subjective. Space Marines don't exist, because there's no canon, right? Humanity died out in M3. Orks are actually red skinned.
If you assume that anything GW says is just "propaganda", then nothing in 40k can be discussed on a background level.

Speaking of Custodes propaganda, there IS actually mention of it: apparently, every battle the Custodes take part in is recorded as a victory by the Administratum, so that the Custodes look like they've never lost a battle. This is very real propaganda that GW specify that they do. However, this is not mentioned about the Blood Games. In fact, we have books from the perspective of a Custodes IN the Blood Games - how is this propaganda?

Again, your headcanon is fine - but it's still headcanon.

GW has clearly stated without the shadow of a doubt that some stories that are told to us are just legends, that some information a lies or exagerations. Some are indeed true, other not and there is no clear indication of what is true and what is not that's left to your own jugement but all that is written about 40K cannot be true or false that's the only certitude. Some things are 100% true, some things are 100% false and most thing are somewhere in between. The book you read might be a pure legend containing no "real" events or characters. What you read might be the exact same fiction an Imperial citizen might read. It might be the scenario of one of their plays, movies, opera and novels. You could have been reading fiction within fiction.

Now, we have the story of a 9 foot tall 500 pound giant sneaking around a palace where every inch is covered by a camera watched dutifully by a superhuman whose superpower is always being attentive to the most minute detail and being supernaturally good at getting and coordinating information of that nature and the 9foot tall guy doesn't get spotted. Then, he passed through empty corridors with no cover and passed locked armored doors for which he had no key perpetually guarded by at least one guard who happens to be just like him and has the order to not let pass anybody because nobody has any business through that door anyway. He then probably needed to repeat that feet several times. As you can see, achieving this, even only once is completly impossible. GW said he could, then my question is how did he do it? Here's my hypothesis, it was a joke to their commander. They wanted him to flip out so they convinced all the Vanus to lie, no Inquisitor to release any information about such a deal, all the guards let him through and when he was exposed they faked surprise just to see the face of the commander. I don't see how a 9 foot tall man could sneak by two guards in an empty corridor with no cover to pass in front of the door they are guarding any other way. Even if the guy was invisible they would notice the door openning and launch an alert. Maybe the guy was invisible and ethereal thanks to a spell, but why wouldn't there be any defense against such a spell when your most likely ennemy are specialist of magic. Guarding the Golden Throne is afterall pretty much like guarding a tomb. The Emperor is visited only by the Grand Fabricator and his crew for maintenance duty which probably follows a very strict schedule because the guy is very busy and its important. Beside that, the Emperor was visited twice in the last 5000 years (or so it's told). Considering thatt for this story to be true we need to believe that the Emperor is either very poorly guarded and that anybody who wishes to kill him is extraordinarly incompetent. Considering that this piece of fluff negates two well established elements who happens to be at the foundation of the setting (the Emperor Palace is the most secure location in Real Space and Chaos worshipers are devious, cunning and determined to see him dead once and for all) and not a peripherical elements without much consequence then that element must be false and purely in the realm of legends within the universe. In other words, no matter what, something you and I read is fiction. Either it's fiction someone actually won the Blood Game and was in position to kill the Emperor twice OR the Emperor is well guarded and the forces of chaos are mildly competant. Do you stand by your choice? What makes you so convinced it's not such a choice?

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Your suspension of disbelief is your headcanon. Games Workshop have outright said that certain things are true. If you're suggesting that nothing is true, then what's the point of debating 40k when anything is subjective. Space Marines don't exist, because there's no canon, right? Humanity died out in M3. Orks are actually red skinned.
If you assume that anything GW says is just "propaganda", then nothing in 40k can be discussed on a background level.

Speaking of Custodes propaganda, there IS actually mention of it: apparently, every battle the Custodes take part in is recorded as a victory by the Administratum, so that the Custodes look like they've never lost a battle. This is very real propaganda that GW specify that they do. However, this is not mentioned about the Blood Games. In fact, we have books from the perspective of a Custodes IN the Blood Games - how is this propaganda?

Again, your headcanon is fine - but it's still headcanon.

GW has clearly stated without the shadow of a doubt that some stories that are told to us are just legends, that some information a lies or exagerations. Some are indeed true, other not and there is no clear indication of what is true and what is not that's left to your own jugement but all that is written about 40K cannot be true or false that's the only certitude. Some things are 100% true, some things are 100% false and most thing are somewhere in between. The book you read might be a pure legend containing no "real" events or characters. What you read might be the exact same fiction an Imperial citizen might read. It might be the scenario of one of their plays, movies, opera and novels. You could have been reading fiction within fiction.

How can things be 100% true if nothing is canon though? If you can't differentiate between what is actually real and what isn't, and there isn't even a "well, this is probably true, but this probably isn't", then I can deny absolutely anything in impunity.

I'm not saying EVERYTHING GW have said is canon. However, recent lore, commonly referenced ideas and first hand accounts or books from the perspective of certain characters are usually reliable, and if they correlate with how the setting works, then it's not unreasonable to say it's canon.

For example, Hive Fleet Perseus being the Hive Fleet that crippled Calgar is probably not canon, because of multiple more recent accounts saying it was Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Backflipping Terminators from CS Goto, despite being from a person's perspective, was not supported by lore because it was inconsistent and didn't fit with what the setting said, and there was no widespread assumption it was possible.


Custodes being able to do this is recent lore, frequently mentioned in a variety of places (Horus Heresy Forge World Books, their 8th Edition iteration, and their own book dedicated to the Blood Games), is referenced as a first hand event ("Blood Games", from the perspective of Amon Tauromachian), and is consistent with what we know can happen in 40k (Raven Guard are fully capable of stealth, despite being 7 foot tall power armoured giants, not to mention Ork Kommandos), so why shouldn't this be canon?

The ONLY thing you have against it is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. That's fine, but it doesn't make it canon. It's your headcanon, but if a recent, well supported GW source says it's a thing, it's probably a thing. Sorry.

Next you'll be saying Space Marines don't exist, the God-Emperor isn't in his Golden Throne, and there's only one Chaos God. I mean, because nothing's canon.

Either it's fiction someone actually won the Blood Game and was in position to kill the Emperor twice OR the Emperor is well guarded and the forces of chaos are mildly competant. Do you stand by your choice? What makes you so convinced it's not such a choice?

Or, you miss your third option, the one you refuse to consider: that a Custodes is so skilled at stealth and infiltration that they can get past all that, through a variety of means.

The Imperial Palace is still the most heavily defended place in realspace. Chaos are still devious, fearsome, and certainly capable - but not as capable as a Custodes. That's the whole point - Custodes are just so DAMN GOOD. They're good enough to break into the Imperial Palace, despite that feat being near impossible for literally anyone else, barring the Alpha Legion, who demonstrated they may have been able to in the Heresy, and even then, didn't actually target the Emperor.

You pretend in your assumption that there's no way a Custodes could do it, as a given. That's the fault in your analogy. You assume that the only way the Imperial Palace could be infiltrated by Custodes is if it wasn't the most defended location in the Imperium, or if everyone else was incompetent - probably because you apply Real Life Logic TM instead of 40k Logic. And that's where we differ - because I can forget about what's realistic in our sense, and understand that 40k operates on fundamentally different principles.

The only proof I need is "because GW says so".

So, i think it depends on what each side had, in terms of equipment.

If we are looking at no equipment on either side, it would favour the Raven Guard IF said particular Raven Guard was a master of the Wraith Slip ability.

However, if we presume them to have been kitted out, then i think it's probably more in favour of the Custodes. For example, in one of the HH novels, which in part details a blood game, we know that the Custodes guarding the Emperor have access to "invisibility clocks" (for lack of a better term). This would undoubtedly give the advantage to the Custodes. We also know that they have access to personal refactor field like devices that allow them to mask their true appearance and make them appear like a "standard human".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I'm not saying EVERYTHING GW have said is canon. However, recent lore, commonly referenced ideas and first hand accounts or books from the perspective of certain characters are usually reliable, and if they correlate with how the setting works, then it's not unreasonable to say it's canon.

Which isn't the case for someone succeding the Blood Game ultimate objective twice (or even once) since it doesn't correlate with how the setting works.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For example, Hive Fleet Perseus being the Hive Fleet that crippled Calgar is probably not canon, because of multiple more recent accounts saying it was Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Backflipping Terminators from CS Goto, despite being from a person's perspective, was not supported by lore because it was inconsistent and didn't fit with what the setting said, and there was no widespread assumption it was possible.

Neither was there the assumption that a 9 foot tall giant could pass through an empty corridor with no cover and open a locked armored door in front of at least one of his peers without getting notice and than repeating this at least a dozen times to finally get to the Golden Throne. I think that saying that they can is the very definition of inconsistent and doesn't fit with the setting. A backflipping terminator is probably more plausible at that point.

The idea of hte Blood Game is perfectly sensible. It's an infiltration drill. Of course you would conduct such a drill to test defenses. In fact, it would even be smart if the infiltrator was a potential recruit for the Callidus Temple since that's the sort of stuff they must do and their opposition would be the Custodes because that's the type of people they need to stop. The idea you would employ Custodes to infiltrate and test their own defense is kind of dumb, but not implausible. That they would succeed completly is. That it's the sort of thing that is done alone instead of team is ridiculous.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Custodes being able to do this is recent lore, frequently mentioned in a variety of places (Horus Heresy Forge World Books, their 8th Edition iteration, and their own book dedicated to the Blood Games), is referenced as a first hand event ("Blood Games", from the perspective of Amon Tauromachian), and is consistent with what we know can happen in 40k (Raven Guard are fully capable of stealth, despite being 7 foot tall power armoured giants, not to mention Ork Kommandos), so why shouldn't this be canon?

...And is completly inconsitent with description of the Palace has the most secure place in Real Space and Chaos being a credible, competent threats with access to vast resources and 10 000 years of attempt of assassination. Making this element of fluff inconsistent and stupid, thus probably bs. Again, the idea that the Blood Game exist as part of the training of the Custodian is perfectly fine. The idea that one could succeed or even get close to do anything special is ridiculous. The idea that infiltrating a palace is something that can be done by a single individual is also profoundly stupid. Espionnage is the action of entire teams and organisation, not individuals.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The ONLY thing you have against it is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. That's fine, but it doesn't make it canon. It's your headcanon, but if a recent, well supported GW source says it's a thing, it's probably a thing. Sorry.

Or it could be bs because they said they were going to tell us bs once in while.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Next you'll be saying Space Marines don't exist, the God-Emperor isn't in his Golden Throne, and there's only one Chaos God. I mean, because nothing's canon.

Actually that's completly the opposite of what I have presented so far. I did say that some things were 100% true, some are 100% false and some are somewhere in between. Of course foundational elements of the setting need to be assumed to be true or at least mostly true. Peripherical elements to the setting can be true, flase, mostly true, mostly false. The Blood Game is a peripherical element of the setting, thus it doesn't need to be assumed to be true or even mostly true for the entire univers to work. In a creation without hard canon like 40K only core elements need to be assumed true or mostly true. Peripherical elements can all be question especially if the setting tells us that some peripherical elements WILL BE bs. If you assume all peripherical elements of GW to be true or even mostly true, will be wrong. Those peripherical elements need to be consistent with the setting to be at least mostly true, but also believable within the rules of the univers.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or, you miss your third option, the one you refuse to consider: that a Custodes is so skilled at stealth and infiltration that they can get past all that, through a variety of means.

More than stealthy a Custodes is ever vigilent and at his post. How did his collegue passed in front of him while he was barring a locked armored door in an empty corridor without any sort of cover without him noticing it and how did his collegue managed to do the same a dozen times? I refuse to consider that someone is either stupid enough not put a guard in faction in front of all the doors that lead to the Golden Throne and in front of the door of the Golden Throne room itself or that those gaurd are so incompetant they can't notice something in front of them while the view is unobstruct AND I refuse to consider that the forces of Chaos can't abuse of such massive stupidity. Sometimes, things are simply impossible. A successful infiltration of a palace doesn't rest on the skill of the infiltrators half as much as it relies on the incompetence of the guards and their corruptability. That's why emperors get killed by their guards not by assassins half as often. The greatest miracle of the Custodians isn't that they stopped assassins. Guarding a fortress and preveinting everybody from getting into a set of room is rather easy after all, especially if the place you are guarding is well designed. Not killing your boss inexchange of very tangible and unlimited reward is another thing.

This was a fun thread to read...

Custodes hands down. Blood Games speaks for itself. But in a battlefield role, that is not their duty. Custodes and Raven Guard operate in different ways. But you give them an equal objective without the help of armor, weapons or resources from the start. Probably gonna given it to the custodes.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I'm not saying EVERYTHING GW have said is canon. However, recent lore, commonly referenced ideas and first hand accounts or books from the perspective of certain characters are usually reliable, and if they correlate with how the setting works, then it's not unreasonable to say it's canon.

Which isn't the case for someone succeding the Blood Game ultimate objective twice (or even once) since it doesn't correlate with how the setting works.

Why doesn't it correlate? We've know for quite some time, and it's been supported as such that Custodes are supernaturally adept. Everything else makes sense of it - recent, frequently mentioned, and from a first hand perspective. Why wouldn't it correlate, if we were to ignore your opinion that the Imperial Palace cannot be infiltrated?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For example, Hive Fleet Perseus being the Hive Fleet that crippled Calgar is probably not canon, because of multiple more recent accounts saying it was Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Backflipping Terminators from CS Goto, despite being from a person's perspective, was not supported by lore because it was inconsistent and didn't fit with what the setting said, and there was no widespread assumption it was possible.

Neither was there the assumption that a 9 foot tall giant could pass through an empty corridor with no cover and open a locked armored door in front of at least one of his peers without getting notice and than repeating this at least a dozen times to finally get to the Golden Throne. I think that saying that they can is the very definition of inconsistent and doesn't fit with the setting. A backflipping terminator is probably more plausible at that point.

A backflipping Terminator is mentioned once, in one source. Custodes infiltrating Terra is mentioned in at least three, by three different authors, in works that haven't been contradicted.

You're ignoring the fact that GW said it's canon, and assuming the default that it could never work.

The idea of hte Blood Game is perfectly sensible. It's an infiltration drill. Of course you would conduct such a drill to test defenses. In fact, it would even be smart if the infiltrator was a potential recruit for the Callidus Temple since that's the sort of stuff they must do and their opposition would be the Custodes because that's the type of people they need to stop. The idea you would employ Custodes to infiltrate and test their own defense is kind of dumb, but not implausible. That they would succeed completly is. That it's the sort of thing that is done alone instead of team is ridiculous.

Why is having Custodes dumb and not a member of the Assassinorum?
It's because you are still under the illusion that Custodes aren't master infiltrators, despite all evidence saying otherwise. You don't draw conclusions from the actual data - you have your conclusion, and assume it's impossible without actually seeing what Custodes can do and believing that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Custodes being able to do this is recent lore, frequently mentioned in a variety of places (Horus Heresy Forge World Books, their 8th Edition iteration, and their own book dedicated to the Blood Games), is referenced as a first hand event ("Blood Games", from the perspective of Amon Tauromachian), and is consistent with what we know can happen in 40k (Raven Guard are fully capable of stealth, despite being 7 foot tall power armoured giants, not to mention Ork Kommandos), so why shouldn't this be canon?

...And is completly inconsitent with description of the Palace has the most secure place in Real Space and Chaos being a credible, competent threats with access to vast resources and 10 000 years of attempt of assassination. Making this element of fluff inconsistent and stupid, thus probably bs. Again, the idea that the Blood Game exist as part of the training of the Custodian is perfectly fine. The idea that one could succeed or even get close to do anything special is ridiculous. The idea that infiltrating a palace is something that can be done by a single individual is also profoundly stupid. Espionnage is the action of entire teams and organisation, not individuals.

It's not inconsistent at all - the Imperial Palace can still be the most defended location in the galaxy, and the Custodes can still be good enough that they can infiltrate it. The ONLY thing that's stopping you is that you can't seem to register that the Custodes can be good enough to do it - and with what evidence?

Seriously, what 40k logic is there to say that the Custodes couldn't do it? Because this is the crux of the issue. The Imperial Palace can still be heavily defended, and the Custodes still be amazingly good - but you seem fixated that they can't be. Why not? And no, don't bring real world logic into this. This is a 40k logic issue, because it's 40k.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The ONLY thing you have against it is that it breaks your suspension of disbelief. That's fine, but it doesn't make it canon. It's your headcanon, but if a recent, well supported GW source says it's a thing, it's probably a thing. Sorry.

Or it could be bs because they said they were going to tell us bs once in while.

Like how Guilliman hasn't come back, how the Imperium is actually working for the Tau Empire this whole time, and Chaos doesn't exist?

That kind?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Next you'll be saying Space Marines don't exist, the God-Emperor isn't in his Golden Throne, and there's only one Chaos God. I mean, because nothing's canon.

Actually that's completly the opposite of what I have presented so far. I did say that some things were 100% true, some are 100% false and some are somewhere in between. Of course foundational elements of the setting need to be assumed to be true or at least mostly true. Peripherical elements to the setting can be true, flase, mostly true, mostly false. The Blood Game is a peripherical element of the setting, thus it doesn't need to be assumed to be true or even mostly true for the entire univers to work. In a creation without hard canon like 40K only core elements need to be assumed true or mostly true. Peripherical elements can all be question especially if the setting tells us that some peripherical elements WILL BE bs. If you assume all peripherical elements of GW to be true or even mostly true, will be wrong. Those peripherical elements need to be consistent with the setting to be at least mostly true, but also believable within the rules of the univers.

But as you said - they said NOTHING was canon. If nothing is canon, then you can't have something being 100% true. Either there IS a canon, or there isn't. What kinds of things are foundational elements? Space Marines carrying bolters? Orks being green? The Tau being an Asian-inspired race? If I changed any of them, is 40k fundamentally different?
Are Space Marines actually real, and not just a propaganda tool? Is Chaos just a made up thing to keep children in their beds? Can lasguns recharge their ammo, or is that a propaganda piece as well?

When you assume that something is of dubious canonicity to start with, as you are doing, it throws everything into disarray, because suddenly nothing can be trusted. I can't trust that Custodes aren't just propaganda, I can't trust that the World Eaters were once loyal, I can't even trust that there was a Horus Heresy.

What I can say is that we are told several times by a variety of sources, both in-universe and out of universe that the Blood Games exist, that Custodes are trained in assassination, and have completed the Blood Games, with multiple cases of it, both first hand and reported.

If this is "dubious" canon to you, then I think I'm wasting my time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or, you miss your third option, the one you refuse to consider: that a Custodes is so skilled at stealth and infiltration that they can get past all that, through a variety of means.

More than stealthy a Custodes is ever vigilent and at his post. How did his collegue passed in front of him while he was barring a locked armored door in an empty corridor without any sort of cover without him noticing it and how did his collegue managed to do the same a dozen times? I refuse to consider that someone is either stupid enough not put a guard in faction in front of all the doors that lead to the Golden Throne and in front of the door of the Golden Throne room itself or that those gaurd are so incompetant they can't notice something in front of them while the view is unobstruct AND I refuse to consider that the forces of Chaos can't abuse of such massive stupidity. Sometimes, things are simply impossible. A successful infiltration of a palace doesn't rest on the skill of the infiltrators half as much as it relies on the incompetence of the guards and their corruptability. That's why emperors get killed by their guards not by assassins half as often. The greatest miracle of the Custodians isn't that they stopped assassins. Guarding a fortress and preveinting everybody from getting into a set of room is rather easy after all, especially if the place you are guarding is well designed. Not killing your boss inexchange of very tangible and unlimited reward is another thing.

You're again assuming that a Custodes isn't good enough to do those kinds of things. Tell me what modern depiction of Custodes does not support their ability to do this?

Impossibility exists in 40k, but only when the laws of 40k say so. What the laws of our reality say are impossible does not apply. It should be impossible for a plasma gun to not destroy the planet it's on, in the real world. It's impossible for Tyranids to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world. It's impossible for many Imperial flyers to be able to - in the real world. 40k ISN'T the real world. What you think is impossible is being based on the real world. That's not the case in 40k.

this actually makes me wonder if any marines have ever been allowed to take part in the blood games, would make sense for the custodes to want to test against different kinds if infiltration maybe?

 Formosa wrote:
this actually makes me wonder if any marines have ever been allowed to take part in the blood games, would make sense for the custodes to want to test against different kinds if infiltration maybe?

I feel like if marines are involved, it would always just be unknowingly rather than as an active participant. It seems that a lot of Custodes have contempt or at the very least mistrust towards Astartes in general and to be fair they have good reason given the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. Consequently, I can't see them trusting any marines in being involved, for them that would be too much of a potential security breach.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


You're ignoring the fact that GW said it's canon, and assuming the default that it could never work.

How could a Custodian pass in front of an ever vigilant guard in an empty corridor with no cover to, then open a locked armored door and all of this without getting the attention of the Custodian guarding the door? You can be a master of stealth, it's simply impossible to pass in front of even a louzy guard in such a setup. If they have eyes and are at their post they will see you. That's how eyes and brain work. Unless "40K logic'' somehow redefined how visual information are processed, large object in empty rooms tend to get noticed by people without visual imparement. That is unless you have something to make you invisible, but then, when you are going to try to open the door, even a louzy guard will notice it. Now imagine that you are in front of the same setup (an empty corridor with no cover and only one way to go through: a locked armored door for which you don't have the key) and the one you must triumph over is a Custodian. To pass such a setup, you need to be both invisible and ethereal or capable of teleportation. Than for this explanation to be consistent with the universe, there would need to be no defense against it and there would need to be no chance for Chaos or Xenos to have a similar ability (or no will to use it). GW says a Custodian passed through that setup at least 24 times (there is certainly at 12 instence of this setup to get to the Golden Throne Room). Passing in front of this setup without being detected and without accomplices is impossible no matter your level of stealth (beside the trick mention above). It's a challenge that can only be passed by brute strength or by being a supernaturaly good liar. GW can say anything it want and make you swallow it, but there is consequences. Do you believe Custodians are the only thing in the galaxy that can turn invisible and ethereal and that there is no defense in the Imperial palace against such an ability?

BTW, don't tell me that setup is impossible within 40K that's the actual setup for the entrance to the Golden Throne room (or how to get to a ship's bridge or really any slightly secure location). One giant armored door perpetually locked, at least 6 Custodians if my memory doesn't fail me and in front of them a long corridor filled with nothing that leads to another door. There is no other way in or out. How did your super stealthy Custodes passed through that 40K setup while assuming that people in 40K notice objects in their visual fields just like us (which they seem to clearly do)? If you want to make me believe a 9 foot tall man can move around like a breeze and find good cover to hide his advance despite his massive size fine. It's stupid and rather illogical to think that such a giant could exceed the skills of smaller and lighter humanoid expertly trained in that domain, but I'm even ready to grant you that on the large back of "40K logic". Yet, there is no escape from the problem above.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
this actually makes me wonder if any marines have ever been allowed to take part in the blood games, would make sense for the custodes to want to test against different kinds if infiltration maybe?

I feel like if marines are involved, it would always just be unknowingly rather than as an active participant. It seems that a lot of Custodes have contempt or at the very least mistrust towards Astartes in general and to be fair they have good reason given the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. Consequently, I can't see them trusting any marines in being involved, for them that would be too much of a potential security breach.

I should have said during the great crusade. Afterward... we’ll not a chance really

Fighting as a cohesive force.
Diplomacy
Actually doing their jobs for 10k years
Conquering worlds
Liberating worlds
Supporting imperial organisations
Taking the fight to inperiums enemies
Trying to stop vandire (joking)

ok Let's address these in order shall we?

Fighting as a Cohesive Force: - I think too many people fixate on this. they are NOT as cohesive as Space Marines no. Although It should be noted they're not incapable eaither.
Diplomacy: - With all due respect... Have you not read the source material? The "Space Marine as statesman" is more the exception then the norm. It's not part of the "standard marine training school" meanwhile Custodes ARE. Codex Custodes very specificly says diplomacy and statescraft are "Also subjects that must be mastered to a breath takingly high degree" this is as much a hold back from the days when the Emperor walked, when he wanted people who could actually have a decent conversation with him. There is an entire Sheild Host of Custodes DEVOTED to basicly being diplomats
Actually Doing their Jobs for 10k years - The Custodes job was to defend the emperor. The Emperor is alive. They wheren't sitting back in the palace drinking tea and eating crumpets. they where hard at work. Yet again Codex Custodes details some of what they've been doing. Yes it wasn't a whole lot of front line fighting chaos at the Cadian gate but THAT WASN'T THEIR JOB. It's like criticizing the Janitor for not gardening.
Conquering Worlds - The Custodes are a force ten thousand strong, with lose orginizational patterns capable of deploying as many bodies as needed. given the comparitive inflexability of Space Marine Chapter orginization, I'd say the Custodes actually have an edge here.
Liberating Worlds - See above
Supporting Imperial Orginizations - Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independant, they infight with Imperial orginizations all the time. I'd honestly say this is a wash. as both orginizations "answer only to the emperor" and thus "do what they want"
Taking the Fight to the Imperium's Enemies - Space Marines do that more but I'm not sure they do that better. I know if I was a heretic leader I'd be considerably more terrified if I ehard a force of 100 strong custodes was coming to me then a force of 100 strong space marines.

Fighting as a Cohesive Force: - I think too many people fixate on this. they are NOT as cohesive as Space Marines no. Although It should be noted they're not incapable eaither.

Its it not what they were made for, so its not a shocker that they dont fight as a cohesive force like marines, who were made for that, thats not fixation, just a fact of their design.

Diplomacy: - With all due respect... Have you not read the source material? The "Space Marine as statesman" is more the exception then the norm. It's not part of the "standard marine training school" meanwhile Custodes ARE. Codex Custodes very specificly says diplomacy and statescraft are "Also subjects that must be mastered to a breath takingly high degree" this is as much a hold back from the days when the Emperor walked, when he wanted people who could actually have a decent conversation with him. There is an entire Sheild Host of Custodes DEVOTED to basicly being diplomats

The space marine statesmen is a norm not an exception, every chapter master has to deal with multiple imperial organisations from many worlds and backgrounds, captain too must deal with similar, but not the same level as Chapter masters, being a master diplomat of JUST earth and whomever happens to come to the imperial palace is not even remotely on the same level as having to deal with countless difering guard regiments, other chapters, ecclesiarchy etc. sorry but chapter masters have custodes beat soundly on this, they have the experience in the field.

Actually Doing their Jobs for 10k years - The Custodes job was to defend the emperor. The Emperor is alive. They wheren't sitting back in the palace drinking tea and eating crumpets. they where hard at work. Yet again Codex Custodes details some of what they've been doing. Yes it wasn't a whole lot of front line fighting chaos at the Cadian gate but THAT WASN'T THEIR JOB. It's like criticizing the Janitor for not gardening.

Nope Guilliman rebukes them for this exact reason and they accept it, they did NOTHING for 10k years bar "guard" the emperor, something the countless guard regiments, space marines and other organisations were actually doing and still being pushed back, Custodes should have been beacons of imperial truth and hope, but they failed.

Conquering Worlds - The Custodes are a force ten thousand strong, with lose orginizational patterns capable of deploying as many bodies as needed. given the comparitive inflexability of Space Marine Chapter orginization, I'd say the Custodes actually have an edge here.

10k strong sitting on terra doing nothing, they conquered nothing in 10k years, imperium sure could have used them eh, so marines have them beat yet again.

Liberating Worlds - See above

See above

Supporting Imperial Orginizations - Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independant, they infight with Imperial orginizations all the time. I'd honestly say this is a wash. as both orginizations "answer only to the emperor" and thus "do what they want"

SOME marines are like that, very very few in fact, the vast majority just get on the with their job otherwise we would hear a lot more about it in the fluff, its most likely due to most being from Ultramarine gene seed.

Taking the Fight to the Imperium's Enemies - Space Marines do that more but I'm not sure they do that better. I know if I was a heretic leader I'd be considerably more terrified if I ehard a force of 100 strong custodes was coming to me then a force of 100 strong space marines.

They do it better because they were designed to do it better, remember space marines were NOT designed to be chapters, but legions and thats what needs to be considered here, if you were a heretic leader you would be utterly destroyed by golden space marines that carried strange weapons, you wouldnt know the difference, because Custodes are even less known about that space marines due to self isolation, I can imagine the look on the face of the first chaos marine when they actually started coming out of the basement.

"WTF dude.... Thought you guys were de......."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW dont take what im saying too seriously, Im just having a dig haha

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


You're ignoring the fact that GW said it's canon, and assuming the default that it could never work.

How could a Custodian pass in front of an ever vigilant guard in an empty corridor with no cover to, then open a locked armored door and all of this without getting the attention of the Custodian guarding the door? You can be a master of stealth, it's simply impossible to pass in front of even a louzy guard in such a setup. If they have eyes and are at their post they will see you. That's how eyes and brain work. Unless "40K logic'' somehow redefined how visual information are processed, large object in empty rooms tend to get noticed by people without visual imparement. That is unless you have something to make you invisible, but then, when you are going to try to open the door, even a louzy guard will notice it. Now imagine that you are in front of the same setup (an empty corridor with no cover and only one way to go through: a locked armored door for which you don't have the key) and the one you must triumph over is a Custodian. To pass such a setup, you need to be both invisible and ethereal or capable of teleportation. Than for this explanation to be consistent with the universe, there would need to be no defense against it and there would need to be no chance for Chaos or Xenos to have a similar ability (or no will to use it). GW says a Custodian passed through that setup at least 24 times (there is certainly at 12 instence of this setup to get to the Golden Throne Room). Passing in front of this setup without being detected and without accomplices is impossible no matter your level of stealth (beside the trick mention above). It's a challenge that can only be passed by brute strength or by being a supernaturaly good liar. GW can say anything it want and make you swallow it, but there is consequences. Do you believe Custodians are the only thing in the galaxy that can turn invisible and ethereal and that there is no defense in the Imperial palace against such an ability?

BTW, don't tell me that setup is impossible within 40K that's the actual setup for the entrance to the Golden Throne room (or how to get to a ship's bridge or really any slightly secure location). One giant armored door perpetually locked, at least 6 Custodians if my memory doesn't fail me and in front of them a long corridor filled with nothing that leads to another door. There is no other way in or out. How did your super stealthy Custodes passed through that 40K setup while assuming that people in 40K notice objects in their visual fields just like us (which they seem to clearly do)? If you want to make me believe a 9 foot tall man can move around like a breeze and find good cover to hide his advance despite his massive size fine. It's stupid and rather illogical to think that such a giant could exceed the skills of smaller and lighter humanoid expertly trained in that domain, but I'm even ready to grant you that on the large back of "40K logic". Yet, there is no escape from the problem above.

All of what you just said is made irrelevant by GW saying that the Custodes can do so. They can handwave what they want - this is 40k logic. In real life, where conquering a planet with 1000 men should be impossible, where hardly any battles would get to the point of using melee weapons, and commanders carrying around swords to kill their enemies is stupid, you might have a point. But 40k doesn't care for your real world logic. If GW say it happens, and nothing else in the setting disproves it, then it's legit.

Pointing out how "it's impossible" for a Custodes to get through XYZ is showing that you really haven't grasped how different 40k and reality are. They're not bound by anything, barring slight superficial similarities.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All of what you just said is made irrelevant by GW saying that the Custodes can do so. They can handwave what they want - this is 40k logic.

But it has consequences. Saying that giants aren't severely disadvantaged in terms of stealth provided they have good training means that we could make an Ogryn stealth commando if we wanted to. The law of cause consequences still exist within 40K fiction I believe else Cadia could be destroyed and holding firm at the same time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In real life, where conquering a planet with 1000 men should be impossible

I would say unprobable unless the planet has a very low population and/or a highly centralised power. Queen Amage obtain power over a territory the half the size of Georgia with an army of 200 women, that's not a lot of people. A planet with a population of less than a million person could hardly muster an army of over 10 000 person and they would be poorly armed. A thousand superhuman warriros could easily take control of the place. GW saying that a 1000 Space Marine can conquer a world has a consequence. Very small armies can take control of large territories. They aren't the only ones to have done it in the setting. Eldars can do it. Sisters of Battle have done it too. (BTW the 1000 Space Marine Chapter might also be an exageration has the 3rd eddition Space Marine codex demonstrated too, thus only mostly true).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
where hardly any battles would get to the point of using melee weapons, and commanders carrying around swords to kill their enemies is stupid, you might have a point.

At least, there are armor systems that are powerful enough to make the wearer basically immune to most weapons and methods of deployment that allow combat to start at less than 10 meters like drop pods, teleportation and transdimentional shifts to explain such a state of affair. Even today, some combat can devolve in hand to hand combat. It's a bit stupid, but not that much. It's a bit stupid yes and it has consequences. All armies have access to at least one unit that is very strong in close combat, there are such things as duals and being a giant is actually a boon. Ratlings and grots are small and reputably amongst the worst soldiers in the setting.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But 40k doesn't care for your real world logic. If GW say it happens, and nothing else in the setting disproves it, then it's legit.

Pointing out how "it's impossible" for a Custodes to get through XYZ is showing that you really haven't grasped how different 40k and reality are. They're not bound by anything, barring slight superficial similarities.

GW can do it, but there is consequences. I presented several consequences. Custodians are sleeping on the job or not numerous or competant enough to guard doors. There is such a thing as an invisibility and ethereal power that can only be achieved by some Custodians. Chaos forces are incredibly incompetant. Etc.

BTW, come to think of it. If I remember correctly, the door to the Golden Throne are massive, monumental doors as the Golden Throne itself is far from being small. At least that's how the doors were described when Alicia and her Companion and later Guilliman entered the room. If I remember well, it took more than one Custodes to open them. How did a single one of them (who by some miracle managed to find a way there and dodge those guarding the door) could open the door by his lonesome? Am I to assume this was changed? That's my main beef with this new lore. It's complete and absolute garbage and hurts and is so filled with holes, potential retcons for no benefits really. What do Custodians gain really by being the best at everything, anything all the time? I would rather consider it as legends and fancy stories within the setting. It avoids a lot of consequences which I think are harmful and in the end just as canon since there is no hard canon in 40K.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All of what you just said is made irrelevant by GW saying that the Custodes can do so. They can handwave what they want - this is 40k logic.

But it has consequences. Saying that giants aren't severely disadvantaged in terms of stealth provided they have good training means that we could make an Ogryn stealth commando if we wanted to. The law of cause consequences still exist within 40K fiction I believe else Cadia could be destroyed and holding firm at the same time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In real life, where conquering a planet with 1000 men should be impossible

I would say unprobable unless the planet has a very low population and/or a highly centralised power. Queen Amage obtain power over a territory the half the size of Georgia with an army of 200 women, that's not a lot of people. A planet with a population of less than a million person could hardly muster an army of over 10 000 person and they would be poorly armed. A thousand superhuman warriros could easily take control of the place. GW saying that a 1000 Space Marine can conquer a world has a consequence. Very small armies can take control of large territories. They aren't the only ones to have done it in the setting. Eldars can do it. Sisters of Battle have done it too. (BTW the 1000 Space Marine Chapter might also be an exageration has the 3rd eddition Space Marine codex demonstrated too, thus only mostly true).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
where hardly any battles would get to the point of using melee weapons, and commanders carrying around swords to kill their enemies is stupid, you might have a point.

At least, there are armor systems that are powerful enough to make the wearer basically immune to most weapons and methods of deployment that allow combat to start at less than 10 meters like drop pods, teleportation and transdimentional shifts to explain such a state of affair. Even today, some combat can devolve in hand to hand combat. It's a bit stupid, but not that much. It's a bit stupid yes and it has consequences. All armies have access to at least one unit that is very strong in close combat, there are such things as duals and being a giant is actually a boon. Ratlings and grots are small and reputably amongst the worst soldiers in the setting.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But 40k doesn't care for your real world logic. If GW say it happens, and nothing else in the setting disproves it, then it's legit.

Pointing out how "it's impossible" for a Custodes to get through XYZ is showing that you really haven't grasped how different 40k and reality are. They're not bound by anything, barring slight superficial similarities.

GW can do it, but there is consequences. I presented several consequences. Custodians are sleeping on the job or not numerous or competant enough to guard doors. There is such a thing as an invisibility and ethereal power that can only be achieved by some Custodians. Chaos forces are incredibly incompetant. Etc.

BTW, come to think of it. If I remember correctly, the door to the Golden Throne are massive, monumental doors as the Golden Throne itself is far from being small. At least that's how the doors were described when Alicia and her Companion and later Guilliman entered the room. If I remember well, it took more than one Custodes to open them. How did a single one of them (who by some miracle managed to find a way there and dodge those guarding the door) could open the door by his lonesome? Am I to assume this was changed? That's my main beef with this new lore. It's complete and absolute garbage and hurts and is so filled with holes, potential retcons for no benefits really. What do Custodians gain really by being the best at everything, anything all the time? I would rather consider it as legends and fancy stories within the setting. It avoids a lot of consequences which I think are harmful and in the end just as canon since there is no hard canon in 40K.

Well, commando ogryns could very well exist, given that Ork kommandos (a race generally not exactly known for their subtlety) and in particular Snikrot (not a small Ork by any means) are stealth specialists in the fluff.

With regards to how a Custodian could get through past the Eternity Gate, I don't think GW needs to meticulously detail every single act and deed, its left to the reader's imagination and presumably, given that they have access to the layout and guard cycles of the Imperial Palace, could use some innovative method to get in. Similar to how GW states that Calgar managed to singlehandedly hold a gate by himself against Orks in the Siege of Zalathras, we aren't given details as to how he manages to stop an entire mob of Orks from just stampeding (or just flying over like with Stormboyz or Deffkoptas) over him, he just does. And this is from 5th ed. So its not exactly a new fluff style.

And as to why Custodians should be the best of everything, well they were the chosen companions of the Emperor after all. As mentioned previously, they were meant to be more than just the mass manufactured tools of the Astartes and often meant more to him than some of the Primarchs, so its not surprising that with this level of investment that they live up to his expectations and standards.

 Grimskul wrote:


Well, commando ogryns could very well exist, given that Ork kommandos (a race generally not exactly known for their subtlety) and in particular Snikrot (not a small Ork by any means) are stealth specialists in the fluff.

Commado Ogryns could very well exist indeed since GW pretty much made it clear that giants are just as stealthy (or at least don't have severe handicap in the matter) than normal people. I would be saying that stealthy standard orks are unexpected, Space Marines in power armor are implausible, Custodes rather stupid and Ogryns downright ridiculous (at least as long none of them has access to arcane techonology or magic).

 Grimskul wrote:
With regards to how a Custodian could get through past the Eternity Gate, I don't think GW needs to meticulously detail every single act and deed, its left to the reader's imagination and presumably, given that they have access to the layout and guard cycles of the Imperial Palace, could use some innovative method to get in.

At some point, I expect GW to at least explain a little bit how something commonly understood as rigorously impossible in normal circomstances. It would be the epidemy of incompetance for a palace guard to leave their post before the ones supposed to take their place are in position. A change of guard is a terrible moment to move, there is twice more guards. It would be so easy to pass them if that was the case. GW doesn't need to exlain us in meticulous detail how he passed all the defenses. They just need to tell us how he passed the hardest challenge of them all like how he openned a door made to be opnned by several person all by himself without getting caught.

 Grimskul wrote:
Similar to how GW states that Calgar managed to singlehandedly hold a gate by himself against Orks in the Siege of Zalathras, we aren't given details as to how he manages to stop an entire mob of Orks from just stampeding (or just flying over like with Stormboyz or Deffkoptas) over him, he just does. And this is from 5th ed. So its not exactly a new fluff style.

Depending on the size of the door, the type of fortress, the nature of the ennemy horde, etc. it can be rather believable if implausible, but hero are expected to do implausible stuff. If you tell me the door was 500 ft wide, the ork horde was well armed, armored and covered as far as the eye can see. The fortress was crumbling with no one of the battlement to give him support from affar and vulnerable to aerial assault, then yes it becomes completly stupid. If you tell me the door is 10 feet wide, that it's part of a well designed fortress that cannot be assaulted by the air because its basically a giant bunker. That the horde of orks is thinned by defenders on the battlements and is mostly composed of ordinnary, lightly armed and rather disorganised orks, it becomes an act of routine for a Space Marine champion in massive terminator plate who can wrestle five boyz at the same time if need be (it could also be an exageration too based on a real events like Calgar leading the defense after a breach in the walls or gate). We don,t know much about Zalathras, but we know quite a lot about the vaunted impenetrability of the Imperial Sanctum and its characteristics.

 Grimskul wrote:
And as to why Custodians should be the best of everything, well they were the chosen companions of the Emperor after all. As mentioned previously, they were meant to be more than just the mass manufactured tools of the Astartes and often meant more to him than some of the Primarchs, so its not surprising that with this level of investment that they live up to his expectations and standards.

That's a question of personnal preference and I know many will disagree, but there is something inherently wrong in my opinion about trying to make a faction better than all others in all aspects. I think that every faction in the Imperium and beyind should have their area of expertise. It makes for a more sensible setting with various compelling elements instead of a "one uping" contest where we get a progressively less consistent universe and where some factions are left in the dust by design. I mean, why would Custodians be trained to be better than Imperial assassins at their job and not have the function of assassin. I do't think I ever wrote or heard a story of Custodians assassinating an heretical leader. They didn't even killed Goge "I don't have time to die... I'm too busy" Vandire who was destroying the Imperium and he was living in the same palace than them, talk about an easy target. If that can't even do that what good is their stealth training? They would better spend their time and energy learning how to properly setup a guard faction.

If you're trying to infiltrate a society or an organization, you'd take the custodes. If you're doing battlefield reconnaissance, take the Raven Guard. They fit two different roles. But if they had to play hide and seek, the winner is obvious. It's Sly Marbo.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
If you're trying to infiltrate a society or an organization, you'd take the custodes. If you're doing battlefield reconnaissance, take the Raven Guard. They fit two different roles. But if they had to play hide and seek, the winner is obvious. It's Sly Marbo.

Marbo is so stealthy he dodged one eddition and came back stronger.

epronovost wrote:
I do't think I ever wrote or heard a story of Custodians assassinating an heretical leader. They didn't even killed Goge "I don't have time to die... I'm too busy" Vandire who was destroying the Imperium and he was living in the same palace than them, talk about an easy target. If that can't even do that what good is their stealth training? They would better spend their time and energy learning how to properly setup a guard faction.

The Custodes acting out against the Ecclesiarchy and a High Lord of Terra could have had severe ramifications for them. Their task was after all to protect the Emperor, not to get involved in the running of the Imperium.

They chose to do nothing and be useless wastes of space. They could easily have intervened.