Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!

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**ALEXisAWESOME**

Good idea with the shadowseer, that does seem like a potentially huge amount of damage coming out a single model and when in a hq vs hq situation it'd probably shred him.

**the_scotsman**

You know I kind of like skyweavers better than shining Spears.

The big thing with the bike alpha is that they hit tanks with shooting, then they charge chaff. A Max haywire bike squad does 3x the damage with their shooting against vehicles than a Max squad of spears, then they do 9 wounds against GEQ vs 12 out of the spears.

Sure if you get into tanks or meq with spears they're vastly superior, but the odds that the enemy just keeps hurling chaff into you to stop you from charging are very high, and skyweavers don't have that problem.

**lambsandlions**

So like we always do, let's discuss weapon loadouts for our troupes and what the optimal weapons choices are.

I feel embraces and caresses are still the only good close combat weapons. As they are one point apart I think I like the caress better for most targets. But do we want to equip a unit with all caresses or do we want to take a couple players without a weapon to act as additional wounds? How about fusion pistols? I feel like I want 5 fusion pistols and a troupe master with fusion pistols in one of my soaring spite skyweavers, but for the other two skyweavers I might only want 3.

I am thinking I want something like
1 troupe master with caress and fusion and 5 players with fusion and pistols
1 shadowsun and 3 players with fusion and embrace and 2 naked players
1 solitaire with cegorach's Rose and 3 players with fusion and embrace and 2 naked players

And I am wondering if solitaires are worth it or would be be better off with another shadowsun.

I can't see myself taking voidweavers or skyweavers or death jesters

**mokoshkana**

But spears can actually charge high T targets and actually do some damage. I played custodes and IG last night and watched my bikes do nothing because S4 is hot garbage.

**lambsandlions**

mokoshkana wrote:
But spears can actually charge high T targets and actually do some damage. I played custodes and IG last night and watched my bikes do nothing because S4 is hot garbage.

This is how I feel. Skyweavers just have no bite at all. They really needed an ability were they get more strength and attacks on the charge. 2D is great but S4 ap-2 just does so little to get that damage through.

Shining Spears just chew through so much. If we are worried about smaller targets maybe reaver jetbikes are better. I think harlequins need an elder or dark eldar battalion for CP and to round out our limited choices.

**Lurker**

Has anyone run the math on haywire vs shriken on the usual suspects?

GEQ
MEQ
MC
T7 - 3+

**Goobi2**

Lurker wrote:
Has anyone run the math on haywire vs shuriken on the usual suspects?

GEQ
MEQ
MC
T7 - 3+

Roughly (for a unit of 6):

Haywire

GEQ- 7.7
MEQ- 3.5
TEQ- 2.333
MC (T7 3+)- 2.333
Tank(T7 3+)- 11.666 (Haywire magic, 6d6 shots averages about 9.333 mortal wounds)
T8 3+ MC- 1.1667

Shuriken

GEQ- 7.333
MEQ- 3.666
TEQ- 2.333
MC (T7 3+)- 2.333
Tank(T7 3+)- 2.333
T8 3+ MC- 2.333

Overall, it is a pretty narrow gap between the guns against any target that isn't a vehicle. If you can spare the 30 points to bump the guns to Haywire, it may be worth it for the substantial anti-vehicle boost. If your meta consists of T8 MC's (such as Exocrines) you may still favor the Shurikens, though will probably do the same with either option (tie up the target til Fusion Pistols close in)

**Odrankt**

Hey everyone.

I started collecting Harlequins this edition when the Indexs were released. I have amast a good collection of Quins over the past few months and I can not wait for the Codex to drop properly.

I currently have my 1st 1250pt game organised for 2 weeks time and I am excited to say that I will be "Batreping" this game for my Youtube as well.

I only tried Index quins 4-5 times this edition so my knowledge on them isn't that great going into the Codex. I currently own;
3 harlequin troups
1 crimson hunter (Craftworld)
6 skyweavers
3 death jesters
3 shadowseer
1 solitaire
3 starweavers
1 voidweaver.

From what I have listed what is a good 1250pt list I can make with the new Masques and Codex? I am pretty much a noob so any help and support would be appreciated

Can't wait to start preforming for the Laughing God.

**Khaine**

Burnage wrote:
Skyweavers look like Haywire Cannon platforms to me now. They're like a faster, more durable unit of Scourges.

Agreed. The firepower of two with Haywire Cannons & Zephyr Glaives is not that dissimilar from Haywire Scourges, and they're faster, more resilient and offer a bit of combat punch. All for just 10 points more. Given scourges are basically stuck coming down turn two with the beta deep strike rules, I think I favour the Skyweavers overall.

If you're using them for alpha strike charges, you're not getting as much value as the faster/cheaper Reavers, or the hitting power of Shining Spears. I think the above is their niche.

**Amishprn86**

Odrankt wrote:
Hey everyone.

I started collecting Harlequins this edition when the Indexs were released. I have amast a good collection of Quins over the past few months and I can not wait for the Codex to drop properly.

I currently have my 1st 1250pt game organised for 2 weeks time and I am excited to say that I will be "Batreping" this game for my Youtube as well.

I only tried Index quins 4-5 times this edition so my knowledge on them isn't that great going into the Codex. I currently own;
3 harlequin troups
1 crimson hunter (Craftworld)
6 skyweavers
3 death jesters
3 shadowseer
1 solitaire
3 starweavers
1 voidweaver.

From what I have listed what is a good 1250pt list I can make with the new Masques and Codex? I am pretty much a noob so any help and support would be appreciated

Can't wait to start preforming for the Laughing God.

You have enough to play Harlequins dont worry, just get the codex and play games. Dont worry to much right now about what is good or not if you are new, find what you like and how you like to play then you'll know what to play with more often and build/paint/buy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khaine wrote:
Burnage wrote:
Skyweavers look like Haywire Cannon platforms to me now. They're like a faster, more durable unit of Scourges.
Agreed. The firepower of two with Haywire Cannons & Zephyr Glaives is not that dissimilar from Haywire Scourges, and they're faster, more resilient and offer a bit of combat punch. All for just 10 points more. Given scourges are basically stuck coming down turn two with the beta deep strike rules, I think I favour the Skyweavers overall.

If you're using them for alpha strike charges, you're not getting as much value as the faster/cheaper Reavers, or the hitting power of Shining Spears. I think the above is their niche.

I'm at the point that i'm thinking about taking off my Shuriken for HWC's.. hmm but IDK. For pure its going to be hard to balance shuriken with FP's and HWC's, you dont want to much weapons that re focus on tanks, but at the same time if its your only unit and they are a tank army theyw ill be target 1, etc...

Also with Soup, DE with BH Spearhead 3 Ravagers/Archon with re-rolls is 500pts, at the same time a Warlock/Farseer and 2 Fire Prisms is also about 500pts. Each are good for Harlequins with long range Anti-support, while DE is more mobile with full damage, the FP's are just as strong but now you have CWE powers as options, so do i really need HWC's if i have some FP's and allies? Or do i go HWC's to remove some FP's?

**Weidekuh**

Curtainfall seems to be a very powerful relic. Alas it is locked behind a subpar masque. But it might still be worth it to squeeze a DJ with iTunes into the army. Because the weapons effect combos really well with stratagems and other effects and units. Double hits strat, phantasm launcher from the SS and more...

**Amishprn86**

Yeah i want to play with it but then i need an HQ..... and i dont want to waste and HQ slot for 1-2 units for 1 relic.

Hmm could we take an Aux for -1cp to take him? I thought they faq it (from memory might be wrong) that an Aux cant not take traits.

**Lithanial**

So i'm trying to figure out the best way to use "Hero's Path".

Being able to position both your Solitaire and Shadowseer in safe positions ready to attack on your opponents Turn 1 seems great, particularly when you bring your deny aura from the Shadowseer into place but i'm wondering if it can be pushed further by being able to do some damage with your characters Turn 1 and still get Hero's Path off. It looks like this might only be possible for Soaring Spite and it does cost 4 CP to do, but here goes....

Death Jester
This guy is the real restriction on this maneuver as he is the slowest piece of the puzzle, acting as a hard cap on how far your Solitaire can go to engage in combat. The plan here is to Fire & Fade him forward for 1 CP after you disembark him from a Starweaver. This gives him 18" of movement without advancing so he will not lose any accuracy from his shots.

Shadow Seer
Our first Soaring Spite requirement, this guy has to take the Soaring Spite warlord trait to be able to jump out of a Starweaver after it has advanced up the board. He needs to be within 6" of the Death Jester still for this to work but that is ample range to let all his damage reach deep into the enemy deployment zone. I'm liking the idea of Crescendo on this guy so that he has good anti-horde shots as well as good mortal wound output.

Solitaire
Blitz should get him 22" up the board on foot, right up near where your Shadow Seer is. Depending on how deep your opponent has deployed you may want to Twilight Pathways him up a bit more to make the charge more reliable but the real trick comes here - your charge target must be within 12" of your Death Jester and again you need to be Soaring Spite. The reason? After combat you will be using your "Skystride" stratagem to consolidate 6" backwards towards your transports, bringing you back within 6" of your Death Jester to allow the use of Hero's Path.

For this reason, without advancing your Death Jester, the maximum depth you can engage to is 30" out from your deployment zone.
---

All a bit complicated and 4 CP is a bit steep, but you can land a good amount of damage and there is absolutely no chance of reprisal, since your characters just melt away to safety while also moving to good spots to counter how your opponents have moved.

**Amishprn86**

It "can" be amazing b.c you can use it on your opponents turn. I see it as a turn 1 way to move your 3 guys in better positions and get the closer so you can have a free movement basically.

**Lithanial**

I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.

Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.

Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.

**the_scotsman**

Lithanial wrote:
I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.

Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.

Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.

Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.

Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.

**elk@work**

Lithanial wrote:
So i'm trying to figure out the best way to use "Hero's Path".

Being able to position both your Solitaire and Shadowseer in safe positions ready to attack on your opponents Turn 1 seems great, particularly when you bring your deny aura from the Shadowseer into place but i'm wondering if it can be pushed further by being able to do some damage with your characters Turn 1 and still get Hero's Path off. It looks like this might only be possible for Soaring Spite and it does cost 4 CP to do, but here goes....

I see it rather in your opponent's turn 1 (when you go second), so you see where he moves/deepstrikes and then place your characters wisely to get out of LoS/range or in aura/deny range or get in better position to start on your next turn... don't like the idea of burning 4 - 5 CP just to engage a solitair or shadowseer 30" ahead of troops on turn 1 - for this purpose put them in starweavers, fly/shoot FP and disembark turn 2 safely...

**mokoshkana**

the_scotsman wrote:
Lithanial wrote:
I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.

Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.

Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.

Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.

Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.

Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.

**the_scotsman**

mokoshkana wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Lithanial wrote:
I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.

Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.

Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.

Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.

Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.

This is true, but just due to how geometry generally works, I think you'll struggle to get yourself within 1" of more than 2 models...at least, not often enough that I'd hard dedicate to this tactic in a competitive game.

Bear in mind in an uncompetitive game - you'll absolutely get people with this. I find that 90% of players are still locked into the "assault is autopilot" mentality left over from 7th, where they don't realize you have a CHOICE where to move your models in a charge move, you have a CHOICE whether to pile in and you have a CHOICE whether to consolidate. The only thing in the assault phase that isn't optional is that you must fight with all models within eligible range (1" of enemy model or within 1" of your model within 1").

But in a highly competitive game, you're committing 2 relatively high-WC powers off from a model that only gets 2, AND your relic, AND engaging a unit solo with your relatively squishy shadowseer, AND possibly committing 2CP before you know whether your opponent's going to be smart enough to juke the tactic, just to try and pull off a cool stunt.

Kind of reminds me of how in 7th the Solitaire had the "precision strikes" rule to let him pick a target on a 6 to hit and in one game, I happened to have an opponent who mispositioned the Commissar babysitting a 50-man conscript blob, I blitzed him, rolled several sixes for his attacks, and killed him alongside a couple of conscripts to sweep the remaining 43 models. Every game after that, I always kept that Precision Strikes rule in mind, looking for opportunities to do similar things, but it basically never made a difference again.

**mokoshkana**

the_scotsman wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Lithanial wrote:
I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.

Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.

Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.

Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.

Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.

This is true, but just due to how geometry generally works, I think you'll struggle to get yourself within 1" of more than 2 models...at least, not often enough that I'd hard dedicate to this tactic in a competitive game.

Bear in mind in an uncompetitive game - you'll absolutely get people with this. I find that 90% of players are still locked into the "assault is autopilot" mentality left over from 7th, where they don't realize you have a CHOICE where to move your models in a charge move, you have a CHOICE whether to pile in and you have a CHOICE whether to consolidate. The only thing in the assault phase that isn't optional is that you must fight with all models within eligible range (1" of enemy model or within 1" of your model within 1").

But in a highly competitive game, you're committing 2 relatively high-WC powers off from a model that only gets 2, AND your relic, AND engaging a unit solo with your relatively squishy shadowseer, AND possibly committing 2CP before you know whether your opponent's going to be smart enough to juke the tactic, just to try and pull off a cool stunt.

Kind of reminds me of how in 7th the Solitaire had the "precision strikes" rule to let him pick a target on a 6 to hit and in one game, I happened to have an opponent who mispositioned the Commissar babysitting a 50-man conscript blob, I blitzed him, rolled several sixes for his attacks, and killed him alongside a couple of conscripts to sweep the remaining 43 models. Every game after that, I always kept that Precision Strikes rule in mind, looking for opportunities to do similar things, but it basically never made a difference again.

Oh I absolutely agree this is not going to win major tournaments, but you could do some damage at smaller local events, and definitely in fun games. Also remember that Lightning Fast Reactions is used when the unit is targeted by a melee/shooting attack, and since targeting happens after pile in, there's no real chance of wasting it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I actually think Dreaming Shadow is being underrated regarding the Commisar effect.

A Drop of x2 10 Harlequins that don't care about morale is something that has to be taken care of I would imagine. They'll be shot at and half will shoot back, or they get ignored and they make their way down while something else gets shot.

I at least think they need a second look. There's a lot of attractive options that's for sure.

**mokoshkana**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I actually think Dreaming Shadow is being underrated regarding the Commisar effect.

A Drop of x2 10 Harlequins that don't care about morale is something that has to be taken care of I would imagine. They'll be shot at and half will shoot back, or they get ignored and they make their way down while something else gets shot.

I at least think they need a second look. There's a lot of attractive options that's for sure.

So those two squads either have to run up the board or come out of the webway via deepstrike. Armed with fusion pistols, the Dreaming Shadow trait will rarely matter because most will be dead before they get within 6 inches, and with respect to shuriken, the cheapest option is 13 points for a model that can do 1 S4 shot with AP3 on wound rolls of 6. I suppose a Patrol of a 12 man troupe fully kitted out and a Shadowseer casting Twilight Pathways could work, but trying to run an entire army of large squads won't be effective. That being the case, Soaring Sprite and Frozen Stars are just better options for me.

**darkarchonlord**

I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a batallion since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.

HQ
[125] Shadowseer
[86] Troupe Master (Kiss&Fusion)

Troops
[145] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[145] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[145] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol

Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver

Total: 943pts +5CP

(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)

**mokoshkana**

darkarchonlord wrote:
I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.

HQ
[125] Shadowseer
[85] Troupe Master (Kiss&Fusion)

Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol

Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver

Total: 963pts +5CP

(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)

I think you mean battalion, not brigade. Also your points are off. Your current Troops should be 145 not 152, and your Troupe Master should be 86. So you're effectively 20 pts too high in your total.

**lambsandlions**

darkarchonlord wrote:
I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.

HQ
[125] Shadowseer
[85] Troupe Master (Kiss&Fusion)

Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol

Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver

Total: 963pts +5CP

(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)

I think this will be a very common core and is the backbone of my list. Put the talon relic on the troupe master to move 28" and have your shadowseer as the as the warlord to pop out of your 22" and cast powers.

After this point you can add dark eldar or eldar allies or just a different masque like vieled path or midnight sorrow.

**Lithanial**

I think any optimised battalion is going to want a foot-slog Troupe unit. Ironically it leads to a faster force compared to everything being mounted in a Starweaver as you can get a Troupe squad into combat a whole turn faster.

You support the foot unit with your Shadowseer so that you can buff them up and then send them in with Twilight Pathways. Using the guaranteed 6" advance move strategem, this simple move will catapult the unit 28" up the board which should give ample choice of charge targets and let them clear a big hole for your Starweaver squads to charge down turn 2. Again, Soaring Spite are probably best at this since you can also get your warlord in to support them.

Add to this that a large foot squad is probably the best target for the "Wardancers" that you could ask for and the potential for turn 1 damage gets a little crazy.

**Amishprn86**

Lithanial wrote:
I think any optimised battalion is going to want a foot-slog Troupe unit. Ironically it leads to a faster force compared to everything being mounted in a Starweaver as you can get a Troupe squad into combat a whole turn faster.

You support the foot unit with your Shadowseer so that you can buff them up and then send them in with Twilight Pathways. Using the guaranteed 6" advance move strategem, this simple move will catapult the unit 28" up the board which should give ample choice of charge targets and let them clear a big hole for your Starweaver squads to charge down turn 2. Again, Soaring Spite are probably best at this since you can also get your warlord in to support them.

Add to this that a large foot squad is probably the best target for the "Wardancers" that you could ask for and the potential for turn 1 damage gets a little crazy.

Only 1 Troupe can Twilight Pathways and what if you go 2nd? Now you have 15 T3 models on the table, any decent list will kill them all turn 1. AT least a starweaver give you a -1 to hit and +5T with 6 more wounds before your units dies. It will also give you +3" no matter what and you can still do what you are suggesting.

**Lithanial**

You only foot-slog one unit so the single Twilight Pathways isn't an issue. You are also vastly over-estimating a foot units fragility if you go second and they start getting shot within your deployment zone. Most anti-infantry weapons only truly kick in at 12-18" range so most fire at that range is more incidental rather than the really heavy weight of fire attacks. You will also be within your Shadowseer aura so vs a Starweaver squad you have the same amount of wounds, similar toughness thanks to the aura, no fragility to multi-wound weapons, same invulnerable save and no transport destruction casualties. The only thing you are missing is the -1 to hit.

You also have flip belts... use line of sight blockers when you deploy or you kind of have it coming.

**Amishprn86**

Lithanial wrote:
You only foot-slog one unit so the single Twilight Pathways isn't an issue. You are also vastly over-estimating a foot units fragility if you go second and they start getting shot within your deployment zone. Most anti-infantry weapons only truly kick in at 12-18" range so most fire at that range is more incidental rather than the really heavy weight of fire attacks. You will also be within your Shadowseer aura so vs a Starweaver squad you have the same amount of wounds, similar toughness thanks to the aura, no fragility to multi-wound weapons, same invulnerable save and no transport destruction casualties. The only thing you are missing is the -1 to hit.

You also have flip belts... use line of sight blockers when you deploy or you kind of have it coming.

Umm what? What game do you play? lol, no offense but most armies have and are taking 24-48" range anti infantry, like Mortars, Dark Reapers, ML's, SPlinter Cannons/Dis Cannons, HB's, Fire Warriors, Primaris marines, Missile Pods, etc.. i literally can name 50+ more weapons/units, WW's, Wyverns, Autocannons, Storm Bolters, and so much more.

But, i will agree that having 1 unit on foot can be worth it only b.c you can get them in units larger than 6 that way, also Transports give you +3" turn 1 no matter what anyways.

**Lithanial**

For comparison, to protect 4 Troupes and a character, assuming BS3 shooters:

6 Wounds of Starweaver
Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required

Vulnerable to multi-damage. Average 1 additional casualty on destruction. 99 points for the Starweaver + minimum 13 for lost troupe on destruction.

8 Wounds of ablative Troupe in Shadowseer Aura
Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required

Vulnerable to morale. 104 points for 8 basic troupes
---

There are pro's and cons to both. Just wanted to illustrate that being outside of a Starweaver is not as bad as the initial knee-jerk thoughts tend to be.