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In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

pm713 wrote:
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh

"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "

Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.

"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."

And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.

I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.

"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."

Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.

pm713 wrote:


"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

The Salamanders still follow the basic structure of the Codex for Organization, from Chapter down to Squad level as well as training organization, progression through the ranks, with negligible differences or differences allowed with in the Codex itself. Dark Angels are more Codex Divergent, yet still relatively compliant. Space Wolves dont even follow the most basic elements of the Codex, not a single one. Except, if you stretch logic, that some of their squads number 10 Astartes.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Black Rage doesn't physically change the Blood Angels and their successors' appearance. They dont look like Mutants, nor really are they mutants. Its a psychological change in them, triggered by psychic resonance. The Space Wolves physically change even before becoming Wulfen, Wulfen just make it all the more obvious and more animalistic. The Space Wolves becoming Wulfen was not designed by the Emperor to happen, its a degradation of the Geneseed, albeit one that started in the days of the Crusade, much like the early Red Thirst.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh

"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "

Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.

"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."

And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.

I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.

"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."

Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.

Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.

Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?

But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.

So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.

Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.

Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.

Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:


"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

The Salamanders still follow the basic structure of the Codex for Organization, from Chapter down to Squad level as well as training organization, progression through the ranks, with negligible differences or differences allowed with in the Codex itself. Dark Angels are more Codex Divergent, yet still relatively compliant. Space Wolves dont even follow the most basic elements of the Codex, not a single one. Except, if you stretch logic, that some of their squads number 10 Astartes.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Black Rage doesn't physically change the Blood Angels and their successors' appearance. They dont look like Mutants, nor really are they mutants. Its a psychological change in them, triggered by psychic resonance. The Space Wolves physically change even before becoming Wulfen, Wulfen just make it all the more obvious and more animalistic. The Space Wolves becoming Wulfen was not designed by the Emperor to happen, its a degradation of the Geneseed, albeit one that started in the days of the Crusade, much like the early Red Thirst.

Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all.

Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant.

It degraded incredibly fast then. Plus the Wolves were chill with Custodes seeing them so it seems to me that the physical changes is definitely intended and the Wulfen is a considered trade off for enhanced Warp resistance. Either way considering Salamanders go black and Angels go psycho you can't fault the Wolves.

pm713 wrote:

Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all.

Legion or not, the Chapters that make up that Legion still follow the guise of the Codex with some divergences.

Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant.

Again, larger Companies doesnt mean that they have completely thrown the Codex out, they are just Divergent. They for the most part still follow the Codex's make up. The Space Wolves do not, what so ever follow the Codex. The Black Templars, as much as I prefer the older fluff where they did have Six times the number of a Codex Compliant Chapter, have been shown in books (Eternal Crusader I believe is one of them) to have Codex numbers of Marines, if not only slightly more. That, plus their now use of Scout Squads, Tactical Squads and everything else in the Codex (plus their special Units), barring Librarians makes them a Codex Divergent Chapter. They still follow it, looser than most, but they follow it. Again, the Wolves DO NOT.

It degraded incredibly fast then. Plus the Wolves were chill with Custodes seeing them so it seems to me that the physical changes is definitely intended and the Wulfen is a considered trade off for enhanced Warp resistance. Either way considering Salamanders go black and Angels go psycho you can't fault the Wolves.

Well the Blood Angels also were degraded in the days before the Heresy, so its not an unheard of problem. Sanguinius implies that one of the Lost were dealt with because of such divergences. Them not caring about the Custodes seeing it, doesn't make it an intended mutation, it shows that both parties were more concerned with other things happening, like I don't know killing the Thousand Sons (assuming you're referencing the Chaos Magic produced Wulfen on Prospero). Further more, the Black Rage is not a mutation, its a result of psychic resonance.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh

"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "

Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.

"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."

And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.

I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.

"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."

Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.

Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.

Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?

But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.

So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.

Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.

Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.

Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.

If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).

"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.

The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."

Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.

" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.

"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"

Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.

And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.

They have two Companies that only ever deploy on Bikes/Speeders or in Terminator armour and have no limit on the numbers of those Companies. That isn't following it.

Besides Space Wolves follow the codex completely apart from their divergences.

It doesn't matter. If you argue Space Wolves should be purged because they're non compliant then it follows that all the other divergent Chapters should be as well. Again it's not a huge divergence on the Space Wolves part. They have five more people and their scouts wear power armour, their line soldiers form their scout squads, heavy weapon specialists are veterans not newbies and their elites are drawn from everyone. Oh and their Techmarines/Librarians count as part of their Chapter Masters Company that get loaned out. That doesn't really warrant anything bad happening to them.

What does the 8th Codex say on Templars? We have their whole history vs one book here.

The Thousand Son killing was going to stop and if it lead to their censure the Wolves wouldn't let Custodes see them. Chaos magic didn't make any Wulfen on Prospero. They had hordes of them ready to go. That doesn't sound like degradation that sounds like planning.

Everyone with BA geneseed has mental breakdowns and gets the Black Rage bar one Chapter. Psychic resonance is the cause but that qualifies as either a mutation in itself or something equal to it.

"Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all. "

No one know this in the imperium....

"Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant."

Bigger companies but less companies..... and they have a chapter master, Tu'shan, although I think he died recently.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
They have two Companies that only ever deploy on Bikes/Speeders or in Terminator armour and have no limit on the numbers of those Companies. That isn't following it.

Besides Space Wolves follow the codex completely apart from their divergences.

It doesn't matter. If you argue Space Wolves should be purged because they're non compliant then it follows that all the other divergent Chapters should be as well. Again it's not a huge divergence on the Space Wolves part. They have five more people and their scouts wear power armour, their line soldiers form their scout squads, heavy weapon specialists are veterans not newbies and their elites are drawn from everyone. Oh and their Techmarines/Librarians count as part of their Chapter Masters Company that get loaned out. That doesn't really warrant anything bad happening to them.

What does the 8th Codex say on Templars? We have their whole history vs one book here.

The Thousand Son killing was going to stop and if it lead to their censure the Wolves wouldn't let Custodes see them. Chaos magic didn't make any Wulfen on Prospero. They had hordes of them ready to go. That doesn't sound like degradation that sounds like planning.

Everyone with BA geneseed has mental breakdowns and gets the Black Rage bar one Chapter. Psychic resonance is the cause but that qualifies as either a mutation in itself or something equal to it.

You clearly have no idea what your talking about, im done with you, if you want to make stuff up or claim to read things you havent thats fine, crack on.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh

"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "

Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.

"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."

And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.

I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.

"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."

Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.

Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.

Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?

But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.

So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.

Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.

Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.

Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.

If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).

"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.

The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."

Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.

" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.

"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"

Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.

And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.

Congratulations you found something I already covered. I asked you to provide source on the Wolves revelling in their mutation and you hadn't.

Lol yourself. Google it. It's literally the first result. Blood Angels started a civil war because of a rogue Inquisitor and a mutant.

Does this book have a name? I'd like to read some Black Dragon stuff as I like them. Being "bros" isn't a reason why they get away with mutation but others don't. I know Flesh Tearers still haven't been excommunicated and are just close and you'd know how much flak Wolves get for similar things if you'd read the books.

Okay. So the Sisters of Battle are all traitors then as are the Mechanicum. They've attacked Imperial forces as well. Soul Drinkers boarded a Mechanicum vessel and killed a whole lot of people. Which seems like a different thing to defending your planet which is your own territory. Much bigger crime.

I'm just going to leave things. You aren't interested in a conversation. You want to shift goalposts and then lol your way through things. When you want to actually talk about the lore I'll be happy to.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.

"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.

You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.

As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.

The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.

irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh

"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "

Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.

"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."

And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.

I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.

"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."

Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.

Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.

Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?

But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.

So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.

Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.

Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.

Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.

If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).

"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.

The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."

Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.

" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.

"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"

Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.

And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.

Congratulations you found something I already covered. I asked you to provide source on the Wolves revelling in their mutation and you hadn't.

Lol yourself. Google it. It's literally the first result. Blood Angels started a civil war because of a rogue Inquisitor and a mutant.

Does this book have a name? I'd like to read some Black Dragon stuff as I like them. Being "bros" isn't a reason why they get away with mutation but others don't. I know Flesh Tearers still haven't been excommunicated and are just close and you'd know how much flak Wolves get for similar things if you'd read the books.

Okay. So the Sisters of Battle are all traitors then as are the Mechanicum. They've attacked Imperial forces as well. Soul Drinkers boarded a Mechanicum vessel and killed a whole lot of people. Which seems like a different thing to defending your planet which is your own territory. Much bigger crime.

I'm just going to leave things. You aren't interested in a conversation. You want to shift goalposts and then lol your way through things. When you want to actually talk about the lore I'll be happy to.

Cant talk lore with someone who makes things up and doesnt actually know it

pm713 wrote:

Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way.

Are we really going to split hairs like that? They absolutely do. As already mentioned it is Tu'Shan who is for all intents and purposes the CM of the Sallies, the only asterisk being he considers himself regent and will relinquish the role when they believe Vulkan returns.

To me, the OP read like:
"Tolkien was biased against Sauron, he made hobbits too good. There's no way they could've beaten him!"

I wonder if GW actually pays attention to Dakka Dakka, would a successful poll to get the Wolfity Wolf in the codex replaced with Northern European names like the ones used in the fluff accomplish anything?
Personally I'd love to choose from Jarls and Husjarls.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I wonder if GW actually pays attention to Dakka Dakka, would a successful poll to get the Wolfity Wolf in the codex replaced with Northern European names like the ones used in the fluff accomplish anything?
Personally I'd love to choose from Jarls and Husjarls.

I'd be fine with them keeping ther terms but telling us in their fluff what Space Wolves call them so that people could use the term they prefered. it'd only add to the fluff IMHO to be told "The common man refers to these as Wolf Lords, but the space Wolves call then Jarls" etc

They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.

LoL - if you don't like biased writing, why are you reading the fluff for 40k at all?

It's ALL biased. EVERY codex is written from the POV of themselves, and biased against the rest. Such is the nature of propaganda. It's all lies. Even the lies are lies.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.

exactly, I'd love to see that stuff MAKE the codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.

exactly, I'd love to see that stuff MAKE the codex.

They used to put lots of little tidbits of irrelevant flavour in each army Codex like the flavour text on the bottom of a MtG card. I do miss that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.

One of the things that separates good lore from bad lore is biased writing, properly applied.

Why should fictional people be any less biased than actual people? A lot of the better 40k fiction actually does this really well. Inquisitors poorly understand the way those they hunt think. Chaos cultists are often completely far gone. The Primarchs are all excellent examples, particularly in how they all held biased and conflicting opinions about one another and their father.

That the Lion and Russ are evenly matched is something we as the audience might know or debate, but in-universe it's plausible that Leman Russ might think his brother got the better of him, and vice versa. In fact each of them thinking the other won would explain a lot about their relationship with one another.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.

One of the things that separates good lore from bad lore is biased writing, properly applied.

Why should fictional people be any less biased than actual people? A lot of the better 40k fiction actually does this really well. Inquisitors poorly understand the way those they hunt think. Chaos cultists are often completely far gone. The Primarchs are all excellent examples, particularly in how they all held biased and conflicting opinions about one another and their father.

That the Lion and Russ are evenly matched is something we as the audience might know or debate, but in-universe it's plausible that Leman Russ might think his brother got the better of him, and vice versa. In fact each of them thinking the other won would explain a lot about their relationship with one another.

After Lion running Russ through with a sword they became best mates.
Visit an MMA gym and see how the practitioners treat each other after trying to beat each other's brains out - suprisingly cuddly considering the bruises they just exchanged.

It's fiction. Each character is exactly as good and capable as the author needs him to be. Hell, they even change personalities when needed due to different authors having different takes.

Look up Marvel's Squirrel Girl, who was created to drive home this point. Thanos loses to squirrels, because the stronger/better/faster character is exactly whoever the author decides has to be the stronger.

I mean, look at Curze vs. the Lion. Curze would've turned the Lion's skull into a spit-bucket in one book if not for Corswain joining in the duel, but Curze gets beaten silly by the Lion in another, even while ambushing the Lion.

You got the wrong take away from the duel. No one won the duel, because Russ prettyuch gave up because he realized neither of them could beat one another. This pissed the lion off which caused him to rage and sucker punch Russ out which was true to Lions character.

It was not bias writing it was good writing, it was after that Russ though that the lion was the best of his brothers and had the most respect for him above all others save for the emperor.

I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

 BigbyWolf wrote:
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.

 Formosa wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.

Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.

Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.

Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.

Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.

Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.

Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.

Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.

Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?

I'm guessing you mean Dorn not Manus. and not yet. I'm kinda hoping the scouring and second found get some books of their own when the HH is finished.

That said I'm going to take a guess based on what we know. The Horus Hersy scared the people of the Imperium, especially Terra who saw what space Marines unleashed could do and found it terrifying. numerous books have suggested that seeing the legions unleashed for the first time was a terrifying sight to humans, my guess is following the heresy the other high lords demanded the Legions disband. Gulliman not wanting to be rid of the space marines instead came up with the idea of dividing the legions into chapters. Most of the primarchs eaither went along with it, or at least went along with the spirit of it (Russ didn't follow the codex but he split his legion. after the heresy he couldn't divide into more then 2) Dorn presented a problem in that the Imperial Fists came out of the Heresy in reasonably good shape, and proved stubbron. the HH novels have given us glimpses of Dorn and the man simply won't back down from a position it's not in his make up. This would be why it nearly sparked a civil war, because humanity was demanding the Legions come to an end. Makes for a more intreasting conflict IMHO.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...

Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.

Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.

Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.

Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?

I'm guessing you mean Dorn not Manus. and not yet. I'm kinda hoping the scouring and second found get some books of their own when the HH is finished.

That said I'm going to take a guess based on what we know. The Horus Hersy scared the people of the Imperium, especially Terra who saw what space Marines unleashed could do and found it terrifying. numerous books have suggested that seeing the legions unleashed for the first time was a terrifying sight to humans, my guess is following the heresy the other high lords demanded the Legions disband. Gulliman not wanting to be rid of the space marines instead came up with the idea of dividing the legions into chapters. Most of the primarchs eaither went along with it, or at least went along with the spirit of it (Russ didn't follow the codex but he split his legion. after the heresy he couldn't divide into more then 2) Dorn presented a problem in that the Imperial Fists came out of the Heresy in reasonably good shape, and proved stubbron. the HH novels have given us glimpses of Dorn and the man simply won't back down from a position it's not in his make up. This would be why it nearly sparked a civil war, because humanity was demanding the Legions come to an end. Makes for a more intreasting conflict IMHO.

I knew it was one of the Dauntless Few.
My curiosity ran along the lines of why did Dorn and Guilliman get into a war over it but Russ got away scott free?
Turns out the 'war' was one Imperial Navy ship firing on one of Dorn's strike cruisers, probably just good fortune that they fired on a stubbourn Dorn rather than a hot-head like Russ.

IIRC Dorn only adopted the codex after Guilliman saved him and the remnants of his legion during the iron cage incident. Dorn was feeling awful that he got tricked, and got a lot of his sons killed by being so stubborn. Guilliman was able to parley that into finally getting the normally stubborn Dorn to accept the codex changes. Guilliman was always the best talker apart from arguably Sanguinius and Horus.

The funny thing is, Dorn always criticized Perturabo for being so stubborn on crusade and being willing to throw his men into the meatgrinder to accomplish an objective, even an important one. Then he does the exact same thing after Perturabo turns traitor and Dorn gets a whiff of him being somewhere lol. The iron cage incident was pure schadenfreude for an iron warriors fan like me. Gave the imperial fists a taste of what the iron warriors were dealing with the entire crusade. Dorn was a smug, arrogant, jerk second only to Russ, because Russ was all of those and a massive hypocrite on top of it.

w1zard wrote:
IIRC Dorn only adopted the codex after Guilliman saved him and the remnants of his legion during the iron cage incident. Dorn was feeling awful that he got tricked, and got a lot of his sons killed by being so stubborn. Guilliman was able to parley that into finally getting the normally stubborn Dorn to accept the codex changes. Guilliman was always the best talker apart from arguably Sanguinius and Horus.

The funny thing is, Dorn always criticized Perturabo for being so stubborn on crusade and being willing to throw his men into the meatgrinder to accomplish an objective, even an important one. Then he does the exact same thing after Perturabo turns traitor and Dorn gets a whiff of him being somewhere lol. The iron cage incident was pure schadenfreude for an iron warriors fan like me. Gave the imperial fists a taste of what the iron warriors were dealing with the entire crusade. Dorn was a smug, arrogant, jerk second only to Russ, because Russ was all of those and a massive hypocrite on top of it.

Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.