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Ice_can wrote:I'd also think that a number of anti discrimination laws etc would be very close if maybe not being broken.

But morally and publicly is that the view we want to have of 40k players, unwilling to help and discriminatory?

I can't speak for laws as I don't really know them, but it is definitely the right thing to do; at the end of the day a tournament is meant to be for enjoyment, and making people as comfortable as possible should always be kept in mind.

ChazSexington wrote:How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?

And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.

I believe the OP was referencing how food and drink at the venue was both limited and expensive. Don't know if there's a fix to that, since I've seen it at both Adepticon and Salute this year, but that seems to be the point they were making.

 Ordana wrote:
Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.

If a schedule is too packed, the solution could always be to have more assistance for the particular players via people working at the venue, akin to having a scribe in an exam; they'd help move your stuff around, maybe do rolls on your behalf, but nothing like tactical decisions. Chances are there wouldn't be that many people who would need the extra assistance, so I doubt doing something along those lines would stretch volunteers out very much.

 Ordana wrote:
Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.

Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.

Doesnt' need neccessarily separate table. ESPECIALLY on these tables that are 100% identical. Just have the wheelchaired etc play on easy to access tables like on the edges. Table sandwitched between 2 is going to be harder to get to. Why assign wheelchaired there? Especially when tables are identical and even irrelevant are you on one side or other.

 ChazSexington wrote:
How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?

And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.

Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it

Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?

And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.

Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it

Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.

Well seems there WAS put free water canisters but one day not on easy to spot locations it seems. 2nd day bit better. But information about that seems to have been not that well out.

And no own water still stinks. Do I want to leave table to go find water middle of game? Good luck trying to stay on time! I drink lots during games.

 Ordana wrote:
Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.

Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.

I would hope that their opponent would be willing to help move models and communicate. That's probably the most that could be done time-wise. Maybe if the tournament organizer asked if anyone had disabilities that needed assistance so they could notify players to be aware and helpful.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.

Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.

I would hope that their opponent would be willing to help move models and communicate.

From what I've heard from Dakka, 40k games are played with players only allowed to speak after the game starts and only then to question your opponents rules in case their might be a grammatical issue that someone can take advantage of.

As a location I can't understand the problem with choosing London, infrastructure is great, hotels and public transport everywhere. Expense wise, it's no more than most UK cities. Likewise crime/safety
The venue itself seemed suitable if properly planned and not oversold
The organisers simply made a mess of it.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions

I'm sure the TO is just as upset with the result as the gamers were, but he's the only guy in the UK who could organize an event like this therefore we should really support him rather than hurl insults at him.

I think you might have misinterpreted the gist of my point, it wasn't a dig at any given TO its just that (possibly erroneous) realization that there's money to be had from the gamer community for these type of events means unscrupulous sorts may well take advantage of gamers good nature to tolerate bad events by mistaking a business transition for 'community' and we need to be on our toes to deter sharp practice

Looking at this event I suspect it was a common hobby occurance of too much hobby not enough business, but enthusiasm is not an excuse at £50 a pop

And whilst London is an awesome city, somewhere more central might have been better (and cheaper) but that wanders into the old London vs The Rest argument that just gets overheated

Just going to dive in here to say lol @ the guy who got absolutely mugged off spending a tenner on a pint.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?

Umm, you draw the line at where the Equality Act 2010 says so? It is pretty clear...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
As for terrain, your talking 180+ tables for the 40k GT alone. Your not going to get that much terrain from a few clubs offering you theirs.

Really? I think you underestimate the amount of clubs in the London area and their stores of terrain! Hell the two clubs I frequent could have done 30 tables between them, more if you don't mind fantasy terrain. Also quite possible to ask people to bring x amount of terrain each and reduce the ticket price. Lots of options that don't involve stripping the ceiling of polystyrene tiles, gluing it all together and saying get playing...

Slipspace wrote:
I'd also say the problems at tournaments seem to increase massively the larger the attendance, which isn't that surprising. Maybe as a community we need to re-evaluate what can manageably be provided in the way of tournaments and stop aspiring to hosting massive events with more and more people. Size shouldn't be an indicator of quality in these events yet I note the LGT thread in the Tournament forum has that as one of the selling points. Perhaps not so wise considering what happened?

There have been 1000+ blood bowl tourneys, plenty of people to reach out to about how to do these things.

To be fair it he is American so the Equality Act of 2010 isn't a thing here. Here it would be the Americans with Disabilities act.

For the most part it is common sense though. If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.

For list writing I don't think much should be done there as that is done ahead of time and the person in question should have the ability to get their list checked prior to competition by a friend, or the internet.

Perspective of an American who regularly travels to the UK:

On the surface, London is more expensive than Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol - the other cities I frequent. As a traveler, you pay more for hotels, dining, and transportation. As an event organizer, you pay more for the venue, usually 20% - 40% more, in part because of special surcharges specific to London.

But the reason you choose to set up in London is because that's where everyone else is. Also because of the airport, you don't want someone flying in and to go somewhere else (which only adds to the time and expense.) I usually stay around Victoria, which I understand is the high rent district, but I spend less overall because I don't need to pay for as many other services like taxis and whatnot.

The reason to set up in other cities is not the cost so much as the "charm." While I know London is a special place, I've been there often and everyone I know has been there often. Also, people's impressions about expenses tend to focus on what they are paying for out of pocket. So slightly cheaper hotels, dining, and drinks leave people with a better impression, even if they needed to pay for an extra train ride to get there.

I imagine people in the UK know how to get around far better than I do, these are just my impressions.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:



I couldn't care less about the price of beer. Tax is a thing, and it's an expensive drink.
I took issue with the price of bottled water. A large glass' worth was £3.50, on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] in an event with precious little ventilation, and lots of windows to let in the sunlight, and a two day ban on so much as bringing your own bottle to drink with,
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.

LOL, 21 degrees=hot Ah it's a big old world isn't it.

But people can't bring their own bottles? That's just obnoxious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:


What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.

We hit 44C/111F in Delhi today. I'm thinking I might take off my tie.

Yep. As soon as I posted that, I remembered how many Australian and South/Southeast Asian flags I see on the site.

Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.

 bullyboy wrote:
Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.

They provided free, cool tap water, and also had bottled water available to purchase. It's not like water wasn't available to all attendees, which i think some people are thinking is what happened.

 EnTyme wrote:
What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.

One thing you need to remember (and I'm not sure about this particular venue) is that I'm pretty sure most of England is a lot like Seattle. It rarely gets above what we here in the US would consider very comfortable. So, again, if I remember correctly, Air Conditioning pretty much doesn't exist in England. Yes, 21C is what we'd consider a very mild and very nice day here in the US (and especially in Texas), but think about 21C with a lot of sun shining in, no air circulation, no air conditioning, and 500+ people in the same place generating heat. Even by Texas standards, that's going to be uncomfortably hot.

SG

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/AHHyiad.jpg

Here's a table that looks like gak

And whilst I concur wallet voting really only helps the individual get over being taken for a mug feeling as like has been said there is always someone else naively functioning under the assumption gamers wont abuse other gamers trust, but thousand cuts and that (UK Gencon being a pertinent example)

Amusing that they specify all models should be painted to tabletop standard. Their tabletop isn't tabletop standard...

I feel like the majority of people in 40k are too agreeable by nature and so these events can (while being great fun) often dry you of money like other nerd events... nerds are a bug business, they easily part with their money. Go to a farmers event in vietnam and something will be a bargin and we'll still haggle for it.

 bullyboy wrote:
Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.

It's to do with security I believe, or at least that's how they're dressing it up. Currently there's a spate of acid attacks in England and so they want to know what liquids are within any given environment. Also I believe this has been a rule within airports for a few years now.
Sadly a sign of the times.

Airports allow you to bring empty bottles into the passenger area where you are free to fill them with whatever is at hand. Based on what people have said they weren't even allowed to bring in their own bottles.

That is pretty common at event venues though as they want you to buy their expensive water bottles.

I guess there's two ways of looking at it. Security is essential, particularly at busy and enclosed events.
But I'm sure there are a few unscrupulous companies using it to their advantage.

 Huron black heart wrote:
I guess there's two ways of looking at it. Security is essential, particularly at busy and enclosed events.
But I'm sure there are a few unscrupulous companies using it to their advantage.

Quite. Where is the security risk in people bringing an empty bottle? A little plastic cup of water is no good at a busy event where opportunities to get more are limited.

The water thing is being wildly overblown. There was free water available at the bar on the first day, and on the second day they'd brought a table down with a ton of jugs etc. so that it was more available than previously. Absolutely no-one was unable to access water.

Food on the other hand was apocalyptic on the first day. There were simply too many people for the bar staff to cope.

Breng77 wrote:
If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.

Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.

 Kroem wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.

Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.

Can I say... That looks somewhat a safety issue yet alone space. Add chairs. And people and bags... Those route between are tiny. Had anything happened. Your pretty chested there.

That's definitely what I'd call ideal fire safety practices.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?

And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.

Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it

Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.

That's not capitalism - that's just bad business. These tournaments try to break even, nevermind make bank. Renting an Olympic stadium ain't cheap.

 General Annoyance wrote:

ChazSexington wrote:How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?

And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.

I believe the OP was referencing how food and drink at the venue was both limited and expensive. Don't know if there's a fix to that, since I've seen it at both Adepticon and Salute this year, but that seems to be the point they were making.

That's just bad service. If they actually want to make money, they want return customers. But I get the point - thanks for clarifying.

Kdash wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.

They provided free, cool tap water, and also had bottled water available to purchase. It's not like water wasn't available to all attendees, which i think some people are thinking is what happened.

I confess on day 3, [Remember, this began on Friday] in the afternoon I discovered one room had one table with some water and glasses on, which I was able to make use of after my 5th game.

This was small comfort.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.

Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.

Can I say... That looks somewhat a safety issue yet alone space. Add chairs. And people and bags... Those route between are tiny. Had anything happened. Your pretty chested there.

That's definitely what I'd call ideal fire safety practices.

IDK how the Laws work over there just in USA (I got hit with fire code a couple times, and they WILL shut you down).

I know for sure this in USA is a fire hazard and is not allowed (as long as the Fire marshal / inspector sees it he will tell you to change it or get shut down). It is law in USA to have 2' room for the person at the table and a 16" clearance between the chairs, its 5 1/2' , (Some states its 5' others its 6')

If i remember correctly you also need 3" between all walls and chairs (not tables) for walking/moving/fire code, and also the Americans with Disabilities Act from 1991, this also made it all doors need to be 3" (per door) restrooms certain sizes, etc..

That is nuts.