lolman1c wrote:


And as for not wanting giant crazy ork... maybe some of us don't get off on the idea of bigger = better. There is so much about Ork society that's left unanswered and needs to be explored but you're happier for GW to abandon all that to make fantasy style orks? Just big ugly bad guys... The uniqueness would be all gone with just large monsters walking across the feild... new players buying the codex would no longer experience the thrill of an Evil Sunz warboss looking for mad max battles, they wouldn't understand the Badmoonz mega armour warboss need for bigger and better equipment to fuel is ever growing wealth, they'll never have the joy of building a kustom looted vechile for his lucky handy Deffskullz warboss and if you even talk about the Blood Axes they'll laugh at the idea of Orks actually using stealth. Never mind snakebites none existence after the boar boyz vanished. You remove this uniqueness (which the codex is extremely likely to do) then we might as well becomethe big scary fantasy orc NPC race every new player already thinks we are.

 lolman1c wrote:

But I geuss you're right... my goff army needs more meat! I suppose everyone should just keywords their army goff because it's wrong to want existing klanz to get their HQs real models rather than have them be replaced with plastic ork boyz models that are a inch taller.

 lolman1c wrote:
Not really, we know orks get bigger but to be the size of a stompa is unheard of and over emphasises on one aspect of Orks. It would be if like if you had a bowl of M&Ns and removed all the colours so the bowl is just blue M&Ns and then said that all M&Ns everywhere are blue.

 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Not really, we know orks get bigger but to be the size of a stompa is unheard of and over emphasises on one aspect of Orks. It would be if like if you had a bowl of M&Ns and removed all the colours so the bowl is just blue M&Ns and then said that all M&Ns everywhere are blue.

Thats not really fair.... A beast level ork is not the 1/6 that you make it out to be; it's one in quadrillions. It requires an empire that spans a huge swathe of the galaxy, and even then its not a garuntee unless there was some fighting to be had that inspired the growth.

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay, how about this? When Orks fight each other they grow but they then stop. This is lore... they can no longer grow any larger so they need to go somewhere else and fight another race to grow larger. In fact, if they continue to just fight Orks they stay the largest they cna and can't grow anymore. Without the fight getting bigger and bigger they just stay normal orks... and even if they did get a huge mega fight like Armageddon. They do not just shoot up over night... they grow slowly over years of fighting. So where the hell did all these big prime orks come from without anybody once seeing them before the big ork waagh? You all keep saying the lore accepts the Beast so, if we're following old lore, who did the orks fight for hundreds of years so this warboss could grow to that size? (Take into account small raids don't increase an orks size that much or some freebooters would be a size of a titan by now).


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 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Not really, we know orks get bigger but to be the size of a stompa is unheard of and over emphasises on one aspect of Orks. It would be if like if you had a bowl of M&Ns and removed all the colours so the bowl is just blue M&Ns and then said that all M&Ns everywhere are blue.

Thats not really fair.... A beast level ork is not the 1/6 that you make it out to be; it's one in quadrillions. It requires an empire that spans a huge swathe of the galaxy, and even then its not a garuntee unless there was some fighting to be had that inspired the growth.

But it seems, if gw goes for this lore route, that they will make it 1/6 of the time like they have done with primaris. And, if my knowledge of marketing and companies have any say, they will eventually make the primaris 90-100% time thing. So they'll do this to orks, every ork becomes a prime ork! Niw suddenly it's not even super rare like the beast book... every ork player has an entire army of 'prime orks tm' who we have to buy new trukks for because they're too large.... -_- it would just be the ork version of the Primaris marines and that's 1. Lore shattering (which Idon't even care about... i just use it to try and stop the making of prime ork models). 2. Costly for us. 3. Not unique and a dumb thing. 4. A marketing ploy to get us to rebuy our whole army.

I couldn't care less if GW renamed the Orks to "Pretty princess army for children". I do not want prime ork models as I know what GW is attempting to do. I don't have a need to re buy everything I already own but taller... All we need is a new Ghaz model, an uodate of the buggies and a general HQ kit... boom, I'm happy for ever.

 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay, how about this? When Orks fight each other they grow but they then stop. This is lore... they can no longer grow any larger so they need to go somewhere else and fight another race to grow larger. In fact, if they continue to just fight Orks they stay the largest they cna and can't grow anymore. Without the fight getting bigger and bigger they just stay normal orks... and even if they did get a huge mega fight like Armageddon. They do not just shoot up over night... they grow slowly over years of fighting. So where the hell did all these big prime orks come from without anybody once seeing them before the big ork waagh? You all keep saying the lore accepts the Beast so, if we're following old lore, who did the orks fight for hundreds of years so this warboss could grow to that size? (Take into account small raids don't increase an orks size that much or some freebooters would be a size of a titan by now).


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 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Not really, we know orks get bigger but to be the size of a stompa is unheard of and over emphasises on one aspect of Orks. It would be if like if you had a bowl of M&Ns and removed all the colours so the bowl is just blue M&Ns and then said that all M&Ns everywhere are blue.

Thats not really fair.... A beast level ork is not the 1/6 that you make it out to be; it's one in quadrillions. It requires an empire that spans a huge swathe of the galaxy, and even then its not a garuntee unless there was some fighting to be had that inspired the growth.

But it seems, if gw goes for this lore route, that they will make it 1/6 of the time like they have done with primaris. And, if my knowledge of marketing and companies have any say, they will eventually make the primaris 90-100% time thing. So they'll do this to orks, every ork becomes a prime ork! Niw suddenly it's not even super rare like the beast book... every ork player has an entire army of 'prime orks tm' who we have to buy new trukks for because they're too large.... -_- it would just be the ork version of the Primaris marines and that's 1. Lore shattering (which Idon't even care about... i just use it to try and stop the making of prime ork models). 2. Costly for us. 3. Not unique and a dumb thing. 4. A marketing ploy to get us to rebuy our whole army.

I couldn't care less if GW renamed the Orks to "Pretty princess army for children". I do not want prime ork models as I know what GW is attempting to do. I don't have a need to re buy everything I already own but taller... All we need is a new Ghaz model, an uodate of the buggies and a general HQ kit... boom, I'm happy for ever.

No one but you has said that orks have a limit when they are only fighting each other.

Also, if the 1/6 thing is true (and again, you are starting from premises you set yourself) then it fits right in with the rest of the tabletop. Isn't there supposed to be only one marine for every planet in the imperium? Isn't terminator armor supposed to be so rare that its almost never used? Every other demon incursion is led by a greater named demon, and almost every army has a small squad of guardsmen with them, who just happen to have a commissar in tow? Guilliman happens to personally attend every single skirmish that space marines have?

The tabletop is no way for you to justify hating on the idea or primeorks. You may not like them, but if they end up being part of the game, they fit right in with all the other ridiculous gak we have. If you don't wanna rebuy everything, then dont. Primaris didnt replace tacticals, primeorks wont replace boys.

Vaercathor wrote:
I think there's some confusion. Prime Orks are not like Primaris Marines. They're Primorks. Primarch size orks.

 lolman1c wrote:

2. It's not a straw man argument. If you love regular marine (like i do) you do feel a loss that they're likely never going to get new models again.

Firstly, this is probably the most controversial issue in Ork Fluff. I can count on one hand how many times I've been engaged in debates over Ork fluff that has got actually nasty and toxic. Most of them have been over this idea of Ork Growth. Sometimes on a thread, sometimes in PM (in one instance I gave up on it because I'd pushed the opponent into adopting the defence that I'd started with), and it's actually more of a taste issue than a one with actual merit. I think that's the key problem. Some people are just disgusted with the idea of Orks growing indefinitely and think it portrays Orks poorly. That's fine as a perspective, but the fluff, increasingly, doesn't support that conclusion. It's not a debate that can be resolved in an entirely straightforward manner, and it usually ends up with people dredging up obscure references to ideas that lasted for one edition (if that) to render it "Impossible". It's a debate that can and probably will get heated. We can go there, sure (I never wince from a debate) but ultimately both side comes down to whether you like the idea or not.

Secondarily, just remember that the "coming out of nowhere" bit is largely because Black Library service (and you can take that as you like) Imperial fans first and foremost and indulge the idea of the Imperial Perspective on all things (even though this has never been a consistent tone of 40k in any edition of the game) and thus it's not important how the Orks got there, and most of the writers probably don't care. You could certainly dwell on their ability to do so, or their authority, but they ultimately stuck to what they've had practice at (writing homoerotic Imperial Fluff Fiction) and done it to the usual multi-book epic affair. Black Library is disposable fiction, and by their own words, non-canon. They may influence GW's "Writers" into including this in the fluff (although I expect that will be a thing for future development and not this Codex. Don't get relieved when it doesn't happen this time), but in spite of my own personal disinterest in it (in terms of resonance, the debate is over) I do generally agree it's best to keep out of 40k, as the Orks getting bigger thing is an aspect of model porn that GW's designers will be too over-keen to indulge and the entire faction will be Flanderized. They should leave it in myth and those who like it can build their own beasts.

Finally, the fluff doesn't have a straight answer on this. But it is heavily weighed towards the conclusion that "it's possible" over anything else. Beyond that, the devils are in the details. As we are interested in the Ork side of the Beast Arises, we basically have to extrapolate from the paltry amount of information we have, and the few bits of associated Ork fluff that accompanies it.

I'm probably less resistant to it than most. My problem isn't the possibility, but the context in which it happened. In a sense, this is about poor storytelling than possibility. Because the from out of nowhere thing is difficult to accept. However, in the specific context, it does work, and now I have to do the duty of the skum that wrote the books and explain (seeing as they didn't think it important, or, didn't think). The fact is, the Orks faced the Emperor himself (who is nearly killed by a huge Warboss) and his Primarchs during the great crusade. They then leave a power chasm, where the Orks lick their wounds. It's probable that Orks being aware of such power grow to reflect it, and they fight amongst other Orks until they have a collective Waaagh. This all could have happened in the background of the Heresy, and the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath held off the Waaagh for quite some time. That's plausible. It's plausible that Orks, in that context would start far too big for neighbouring Ork Rivals to stop them, and from that position, its highly unlikely that this tide of escalation could be stopped, and as Orks had encountered Imperial Titans, they realised that they needed versions of their own.

What pisses me off is that in Waaargh! The Orks, this inspires the construction of Gargants so that they can beat the Imperials. In this series, they merely make it something unconscious that the Orks do that has nothing whatever to do with their inventiveness, yet at the same time, giving them a planet with a mind of its own, tellyporta tech, and barely a gargant in sight (because GW has decided that all important changes to Orks must happen in Armageddon), and to further hammer this home, they take the bit of fluff where this inspiration happens (In the Warp, Something Stirred) and use it as a title for one of those gakky pulp novels. We didn't need the invention of super-massive Ork Warlords at that point in history. What we needed was our first Waaagh, and Black Library fethed that up in epic fashion and gave us a pathetic Imperial Snoozefest. That's the bit to be annoyed about if you ask me.

As to the possibility? Well, via resonance it's possible and likely in the right circumstances. That's exactly what Waaagh Energy is for, and Waaagh Energy works via escalation and itself escalates the strength, capacities and abilities of the Orkoid race. So yes, it's absolutely possible. It's just not likely to come to that situation often. But that doesn't change how resonance works.


2. How long it takes or would take for an ork to grow Beast sized large (stompa sized).

Orks can grow pretty rapidly. A regular Ork can get to the size of a Nob overnight, so rapid growth is probably quite likely. I'm sure getting gradually bigger is the way things happen. It could probably happen indefinitely, but the main regulator is likely via death. Either killed by other Orks, or in a general warfare situation. It would take very special individuals indeed to produce an Ork big enough to not be toppled over by a rival who sensed a meteoric rise, or who became too big to be killed by chance or assassination. That is, after all, how Ghaz manages to thrive in this situation. He really should be dead (that head wound should have killed him) and thus he is able to eliminate a number of potential rivals by appearing unkillable, and then having the bright idea that the Ork Gods are watching out for him (and like most Orky things it eventually becomes true).

Major growth is going to be rare. It'll take very special circumstances, and it'll be the product of chance, more than anything. The Arch Arsonist didn't decide to wipe out the Crimson Fists almost to the man, it just sort, of, well, happened that way. It's also rare because of the nature of Orks. Ork Boyz are not ambitious. They go along with the fighting bit because it's a fun idea. Most Orks don't get ideas above their station, so it only really happens in situations where their betters struggle, and they picture themselves doing better. In those situations there are only three outcomes:

1. The Boy quickly realises they don't have a better idea and die in the attempt;

2. The Boy gets a good clout from the bigger Ork and quickly realises their place;

3. The Boy overcomes the situation by strength (or more likely sheer luck) and the seeds of a leadership challenge are sown.

If the Ork challenges their leader, they'll toughen up, get bigger and more aggressive. They'll win or die. It's unlikely that the Bigger Ork will let the loser live to have another go, but if the Bigger Ork loses they may live and will accept the result.

Orks get bigger all the time. They usually just die before they get big, or reach a plateau. Some invoke the "Orks have a 30 year lifespan" from Gorkamorka. It however has only ever been mentioned there (that bit is omitted from the same source that is printed in the 3rd Ed Codex) and merely by dint of timeline, is probably a bit of the fluff that is forgotten or didn't last very long. At the very least, if an Ork becomes a powerful Warlord, death by old age doesn't seem to be on the cards. I personally ignore this bit of fluff, given that everything else about Orks can be supported by more than one source.

3. Can the orks even do this by just fighting each other and nobody else?

It depends very, very much on the context, but it is probably unlikely. I've covered some of this above, but Orks are pretty good at killing each other and adapting. But they do seem to plateau without external stimulus. It seems like Orks just fight each other more or less for something to do and out of a interest in general rivalries. Kind of like the difference between Football Hooligans and people conscripted into a Military Force for a major conflict. Orks need inspiration to get really creative, and given that Orks, whilst not stupid, are neither sophisticated, conflict between themselves will be pretty straightforward. Orks seem to respond better to external foes, given that they thrive from being hit by things they never expected. They react to stimulus, and there's only so far they can take themselves, even as inventive as they are.

In the specific context of the Beast, you had a group of Orks that had faced a force far, far more powerful than anything the Ork Race had faced up to that point (although one wonders why this didn't trigger events when they faced Daemon Princes, C'Tans or Avatars of Khaine) and that created an isolated power imbalance to the extent that no other Orks around could hope to defeat the beast, and most will have joined him. That's a very difficult context to set up. You could argue that's what Ghazzie is doing now, and that should mean, if GW is following this logic, that the next Ghazzie model should be significantly bigger than his current model.


4. Ghazgkhull was the biggest, baddest Warboss ever seen. Anything substantially bigger than that just gets silly.



I'm sorry but I just don't agree at all. I get that people feel Ghaz has been successful enough that he should warrant at least a "size benchmark", but even for his own period of history, Ghaz is far from the most successful Warlord in the 40k Universe - historically we don't know, but given that Orks Warlords used to encounter Primarchs, and likely will again, there's room for more growth. Sure, Black Library doubling down on the huge Ork Beasts (likely because they can't think of anything more interesting or intelligent to do with an Ork threat) is not entirely helpful to our cause, but I wouldn't say it just gets silly. It gets ridiculous, sure, but the size has always been possible. If a Squig can grow to make a Dinosaur look like a puppy, an Ork Warlord could potentially get to the point where he uses Dreadnoughts as action figures. It's just spectacularly unlikely that beast will survive to do so, and even less likely that he'll come along in the first place.

My contention is, that if GW brings this back in the current climate, thoughtlessly, then the Beast fluff becomes a farce. In the vacuum created by the Heresy, the end of the era of the Emperor and his Primarchs stomping about the place, and the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, you do have that psychic re-awakening of the Ork Race and enough Deux Ex Machina for a single Waaagh to grow, thrive and then come out of nowhere. The circumstances allowed it. The fact that the novels conveyed it poorly and centred on Imperials is just what you get for buying Black Library.



But Ghazzie probably will get a lot bigger than he already is. Especially as he wants to conquer the damn universe with a singular Waaagh. That's the first time in Ork fluff that he's had an ambition or engaged in anything to exceed the likes of what the Overfied of Octarius or the Arch Arsonist of Charadon have already achieved. They are probably already bigger than he is. Ghaz is the posterboy sure, but who knows what else lingers out there in the Universe. I always had a bit of headcanon of one Ork Waaagh launched against the Nids, with Orks that feast on the gigantic beasts that come with that Hive Fleet, and that Ork Waaagh alone being the stumbling block of that particular Hive.



Ghaz is important, sure. But I think anyone thinking that when Ghaz finally gets a new model that he wont be a lot bigger should probably get in touch with GW to raise that issue. Because to them they're not going to see one. Especially going off the Beast Arises series.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Slightly Off topic, but I didnt want to start a whole thread for this one question. (we seem to have alot of Ork-lore experts here )

Cant be sure if it was my own Head canon or an actual fluff bit, but does anyone recall if Gretchin are forbidden from wearing Clan colors themselves?

 Jidmah wrote:
All this talk about primorks, and I'm still hoping for a model for the Arch Arsonist of Charadon

Oh, and Ol'Zogwort with a squig included in his new kit, to replace your opponent's models.