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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't see you citing any rules in your stance. As far as I can see the rules don't address when you apply the pass/fail modifier in the attack or wound sequence. This specific rule also doesn't give us a specific timing guideline (although p5freak thinks it does). My stance is no less logical than yours and neither of us has a rule to base our positions on.

I'll ask again do you have a rule or rules that says that you apply a non-numeric pass/fail modifier before you determine if a re-roll is appropriate?

You are incorrect. I had cited and actually given the full quotatinon before, and cited part of again, the FAQ question/answer from the Designer's Commentaruy about rerolls. That FAQ question and answer dealt with modifiers to the die rolls. It said nothing about any other factors. What other rules do I need to cite? RAW is that if you have a special rule you get to use the special rule unless you have a more specific rule overriding it. In this case you do not have a rule overriding it, therefore the Adamantium Knight rule applies.

You are also incorrect in your thinking of there not being any specific timing requirements. If the rule applies, the rule must be applied when you are making determinations that it would affect, otherwise you are not using the rule. This should be obvious to anybody. This means that, since you have to apply the rule, you must apply it when you are determining if a roll succeeded or failed. This means that you do not wait until after the determination to say "oh, it can kick in now". If you're not applying the rule that tells you what you must have in order to succeed or fail before you determine whether you succeed or fail, you are obviously not applying that rule, and you must have a special rule that tells you that you don't get to apply that rule.

Now, it's your turn. You have not supplied any rules yourself to back your position. What rules say that you don't get to use a rule that tells you whether you pass or fail that doesn't change a die roll, and what justification do you have to claim you don't look at it until after you determine the roll is passed or failed. So far you have provided no rules support for your position whatsoever whereas I have. Your claims that I provided no rules support are ludicrous, especially given the lack of support you've provided in your defense so far.

the definition of a modifier is to slightly Change or alter something, in this case a successful wound roll is being modified and as we know, modifiers are done post re-rolls and so only after re-rolls would this rule come into effect.

therefore if you need 3's to wound normally you would not re-roll the 3, this would then be a 'natural fail' as it would not successfully wound once the modifier (the rule discussed) comes into effect.

Side note:
to say it is not a modifier because it doesn't + or - a specified number (i.e. 1) is wrong.

Bananarama wrote:
the definition of a modifier is to slightly Change or alter something, in this case a successful wound roll is being modified and as we know, modifiers are done post re-rolls and so only after re-rolls would this rule come into effect.

therefore if you need 3's to wound normally you would not re-roll the 3, this would then be a 'natural fail' as it would not successfully wound once the modifier (the rule discussed) comes into effect.

Side note:
to say it is not a modifier because it doesn't + or - a specified number (i.e. 1) is wrong.

Incorrct. You are told about it being modifiers to the die roll. being told what number is successful does not modify the die roll itself. Therefore, a rule that says you ignore modifiers to the die roll will not affect a rule like Adamantium Knight, which does not modify the die roll itself. It's not a case of it not being a + or -,, as if it had been a rule that says your die roll automatically becomes a 6 would still be a modifier to the die roll, since it's changing the number on the die roll. I'm saying it's not a modifier to the die roll precisely because it does not modify the number on the die roll in any way. Changing the threshold for success does not change the die roll.