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Made in it
Dakka Veteran




Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt. Even the kabalites, because 6 pt models are REALLY good.

But helverins do hit them where it hurts. Mid Str, 3 dam, huge range and only -1 AP.


On average a Helverin doesn't even oneshot a Venom with their 5,3 damage (which turns out to be realistically 3 or 6 damage but the latter is never happening if you put 6+ FNP too)
   
Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader





Cleveland, Ohio

As to the Rhino v Raider comparison. Rhinos have been generally a less competitive choice for a while now (with some exceptions), the arrival of the Dark Eldar dex didn't magically make the Rhino obsolete overnight. I think a Rhino buff is more appropriate than a DE vehicle nerf.

That said, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Venoms got a 5 point bump and the second splinter cannon on them got reduced from 10 to 5 point upgrade. As it is it's silly to take the second splinter cannon option for an extra shot or two for 10 points.
If the DE transports get hit with the nerf bat too hard the whole faction will go down the toilet, balancing DE is such a fine line.

Dissie Ravagers could also get some sort of change, when the max number of units are taken in every tournament army there has got to be something going on. They're the Dark Reapers of the DE dex. I don't even own any as I've just never liked the concept, but not taking them is almost handicapping myself because they are such an easy button.

If Grotesques get nerfed then I think all similar units (like Bullgyns) should also get the same treatment. IMO they work as intended, so scaling them back should be more of a game design change rather than just a change to one faction. (As in, GW just decides they don't like tough bruiser infantry walking up the middle of the table anymore).

Reavers are good but haven't broken the game (unless your opponent doesn't know how they work and lines up right on his deployment line, but a half decent player should only make that mistake once).

I could also see something being done to level out the Kabals, as is Black Heart is almost exclusivly seen in lists. I prefer poison tongue, but again I feel like I'm handicapping myself when Black Heart is obviously the superior Kabal. Maybe if Agents of Vect had a potential down side like rolling a 1 on the cancellation roll actually gave your opponent CPs or something. I don't know.

I think Cults are fine as they are, high risk, high reward as they should be. My armies are usually Cult heavy and they can be very challenging to play. Covens are also ok, wracks and Cronos might need a boost.

I think a lot of the issues are just from the adjustment period of a radically new codex release that plays differently from most other armies. There are some adjustments that could be made as outlined above, but I really think most of this is just a reaction to a new competitive army hitting the scene all at once. The same thing happened when they got their big release in 5th Ed. Once everyone got used to them they kind of toned down on their own (except for all the DeathStar garbage later on).

I'm not an authority on anything, just some of my observations as a DE player as I make lists and play and see what people take to tournaments.

Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool... 
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.

 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





 Creeping Dementia wrote:

I could also see something being done to level out the Kabals, as is Black Heart is almost exclusivly seen in lists. I prefer poison tongue, but again I feel like I'm handicapping myself when Black Heart is obviously the superior Kabal. Maybe if Agents of Vect had a potential down side like rolling a 1 on the cancellation roll actually gave your opponent CPs or something. I don't know.


I think the issue is that all the force multiplier abilities were given to Black Heart. They got Labyrinthine Cunning (even though *every* Archon is supposed to be this - not just Vect's ones), the reroll 1s to wound aura and Agents of Vect.

I think, at the very least, Agents of Vect should have been a general stratagem (maybe just requiring an Archon of any Kabal to still be alive), rather than being specific to Black Heart.


 Blackie wrote:

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time.


This.


 Blackie wrote:
Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.


I think the mistake with Incubi was making them Mercenaries, rather than Kabal. It means they can't benefit from Kabal traits or the Archon aura, and Drazhar is terrible as a support HQ for them.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block



Kwinana, Western Australia

Riggs wrote:
I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list


1. Your priority targets will depend on your army. If you're playing horde or elite foot infantry like deathwing, then splinter weaponry and shredders will hurt so prioritise venoms and raiders carrying big squads of warriors (plus disintegrator ravagers if they bring any). If you're mech-heavy, ignore the venoms and focus on their ravagers and anything else with lots of darkmatter/melta weapons (trueborn, scourges, large squads of reaver jetbikes). Generally speaking, get them out of their transports and deny them their superior maneuvrability.

2/3. Any DE tournament player worth their salt at the moment is using one of the follwing general stratagem/obsession mechanics depending on what they play. Kabal (99% of the time will be Black Heart - avoid using stratagems as this gives them a chance to essentially "deny the witch" against it, causing it to fail and even potentially still costing you a CP and granting them a free one)

Wych Cult (they'll either start on the table and rush at you for a turn 1 or 2 charge or hide in the webway with a big blob hoping to jump out for the same result, either way the plan is to tarpit you and hold you in place until HQs and/or heavies get there and murder you - bubble wrap your important units with chaff units and looks for opportunities to make deep strike difficult/impossible)

Coven (will play like an elite horde with fair-sized blobs of troops backed up by big nasty MCs - either hang back and try to attrition them down with a lot of shooting or, if you don't have a lot of shooting, in which case you're likely horde yourself, it's really a case of fighting fire with fire and hoping for the best).

4. In every kabal or coven list (assuming your opponent knows what they're doing) you're going to have ravagers, most commonly with 3 dark lances for anti-tank/MC but also with disintegrators for anti-heavy infantry. You're going to have either a lot of poison shooting at you or a lot of 4++ tarpits throwing themselves at you.

In every coven list you're going to have some surprisingly speedy and resilient blobs backed up by suprisingly speedy and resilient MCS.


Overall, don't play pure defensive (DE specialise in bringing overwhelming firepower), be assertive while also mindful of what needs supporting and protecting in your own list.



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Dakka Veteran




 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.


Best troll evah
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.


Best troll evah


I'm not a SM player

 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

UM relic leviathan dreadnought with twin storm cannon arrays. 20 shots hitting on 2+ and S7 AP-2 D2. Can still shoot after falling back at -1 to hit.
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Expect the relic leviathan to get a massive nerf this year. They are getting way too common. They are going to get the fire raptor treatment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 15:09:03


 
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




Played at tournament witb De today. I was my 3rd and 4th game.

1st game (3rd sinnce I satared playing) I was facing custodes with Girly man and a land raider. Very few moldles It was a wierd deploment. I was in the center, he put half his force one each end, then I seized (that was lucky) my army is 9 bikes 20 warriors 10 wytches, 3 leaders and 3 transports. 3 get started boxes. And 1 wriath knight someone loanded me.

I have a lot of Blasters in that force. And a lot of movement. It was no problem for me to put my whole force against half of his. With that many blasters his land raider went pop. No problem. I still had enough shots left to whittle down the troops and cleand them up in CC. Then I turned on the other half.


Second game against tau. I got hammered pretty hard but I did have a unit of wytches that walked up half his line. Charge with minimal over watch from line of sight turn 2, then 3 inch pile in and 3 inch consolidate for 2 more turns. Used the 3 point attack again strategy to great effect. Always grabbing the next unit of fire warriors. That was fun.
Blasters in bikes did ok. Blasters in warrior squads plinked the hell out of some drones and killed a cupple units. I guess it was the objectives that took that win. Dubble win conditions. Objetives I won. Atrition he won by killing more stuff mostly the wriath knight. I won by first blood and line breaker.



So to beat me, the costodes had no chance, just not enough dudes.

Tau. Play faster and get more turns in. Maybe be more aggressive? Not sure. I did get to do what ever I wanted i. Both games. It didn't always work but it was the dice stopping me no my opponet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 03:18:18


 
   
Made in gb
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider





 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.


I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."
   
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 Burnage wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.


I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."


Refusing to play against an army while they're strong in anticipation of them being weakened and refusing to play as an army while they're weak in anticipation of them being buffed is a great way to ensure you never get good at the game.

In general, Dark Eldar are very powerful, and realistically, there is likely to be some pretty major and minor adjustments to their points values before 8th is over - just like we'll probably be seeing points adjustments to custode biker units, guard units, and eldar units. But unless they completely kneecap the army, dark eldar are sticking around, because they have a lot of units that aren't undercosted and are just solid units with a high skillcap for use, like Wyches, hellions, flyers, etc. Yes, you'll probably see kabalite warriors go back to 7ppm. Yes, you'll almost certainly see Disintegrators adjusted to 20-22 points since they were certainly overpriced at 30 but adjusted too far down to 15. The Raider/Ravager/Venom hull will probably go up in price.

But if you don't learn "I need to diversify my weaponry and take high-rof mid strength weapons and anti-fly weapons for when I'm not playing against imperials" and you don't learn "I need to respect the ability of fast units to tag my models in melee and stop them firing" then no matter whether a dark eldar list costs 50 more points or not, you're going to lose.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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Texas

They are OP right now, there is a reason they are dominating the tourney scene at the moment. Cheap fast hard hitting models, with durability. Everyone always doesnt want their army to get nerfed. The issue is GW normally goes too far to the point of making the model no longer used at all.

We are back to the old days of Codex creep IMO.

As for how to beat them, if its ITC its going to be difficult unless you too are playing Drukhari.

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Yendor

the_scotsman wrote:


But if you don't learn "I need to diversify my weaponry and take high-rof mid strength weapons and anti-fly weapons for when I'm not playing against imperials" and you don't learn "I need to respect the ability of fast units to tag my models in melee and stop them firing" then no matter whether a dark eldar list costs 50 more points or not, you're going to lose.


This is the heart of it right here. Things that are going to do best against Drukhari high volume shooting, especially shooting that has a way to get around their -1 to hit modifier, and units that can still threaten their vehicles in CQC which makes tying them up with a venom or ravager more difficult. Things like Redemptor, Contemptor, and Leviathan Dreadnoughts, and on the Chaos side, things like Sonic Dreadnoughts, Daemon Engines (Daemonforged for Rerolls on a Defiler or Forgefiend) and Forge World Dreads can threaten Dark Eldar vehicles with high volume of medium strength fire, and are too potent in melee to be tied up by a venom or other skimmer. Knights and Auto Cannon Armigers are also solid against Dark Eldar, Renegades can double up on Avenger Gatlin Cannons which are effective against everything in the DE arsenal and have a strategem to re-roll failed to hits while Loyalists have access to House Mortan's stratagem to negate their hit modifiers. Rapid Fire Battle Cannons, Carapace Icarus Auto Cannons and Avenger Gatlin Cannons and stomping boots are all exceptional weapons against typical DE vehicles and infantry. Even Armigers can threaten their vehicles in CC with their S6 attacks.

Don't be afraid to use Strategems against DE, as long as you aren't pinning all your hopes and dreams on one successful stratagem in a given phase, Agents of Vect can be worked around. Like if you are playing Chaos, you can freely use Stratagems in your shooting phase, because the Drukhari player will be saving Agents of Vect for Endless Cacophony. Which means you can throw down Flak Missile, Veterans of the Long War, Fire Frenzy on a Dread, and Daemonforged on a Defiler or Forge Fiend freely, and if they block any of those, then they can't stop your Oblits from using Endless Cacophony.

Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
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I'm packing those weapons in, but Drukhari are still winning the race. And now I can't beat IG on top of it because of cheap T8.
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Burnage wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.


I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."


I don't think DE are that powerful. Instead of "wait for the nerf" I'd just suggest tone down your DE list a little bit or play a different one with other synergies. Of course if you play an index army or a list with limited option beating drukhari may be impossible but that can be said about everyone that owns just 2000 points of stuff and can't beat an army that is designed to perform very well against that specific opponent.

With my crappy index orks I struggle against optimized drukhari lists, but not more than eldar, AM, tyranids, tau, chaos or imperial soups.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 18:52:27


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I think more than Orks are struggling vs Drukhari.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






DE are insanely OP.
I'll tell you why - free 6+++ on all non vehicals is not a side perk comparable to (reroll failed leadership checks or a roll of a 6 on a leadership check auto passes) Believe it or not 6+++ is just where power from pain starts. They get a ton of use out of it later in the game when they get reroll charges - immunity to leadership - 2+ to hit in CC.

(these are insane bonuses...some of which are other armies army traits)

Yet! They still get an army trait.
Which believe it or not is can be - 3 more army traits!
Ignore cover - reroll 1's - and bonus movement.

Like...seriously...the only thing iron hands get is FNP. If balance alarms are not going off in your head when you see this - you have no place talking about balance in a game. Your brain is warped beyond all reason.

DE are OP - no arguing against it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 19:16:31


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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I think he's gonna try anyway.
   
Made in us
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DE aren’t all that oppressive, it looks like they’re the top faction but there’s a whole lot of diversity in the meta right now. It’s not uncommon to see 5-6 factions in the top 8 lists of any given GT.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




So here are some strategies to improve your games against Drukhari players.

As a Drukhari player myself, these are tactics that I don't see used against me to their full extent, and neglecting them can leave my opponents severely punished.

Drukhari players have historically been playing a pretty weak Codex, and we've been trained since the days of 3rd ed to see our army as "rewarding in the hands of a strong general, but easily punished by our own tactical errors." NOW we are considerably more forgiving of our own tactical errors, because our units have vastly improved - instead, it's our opponents who are more easily punished by their blunders.

Stop making so many blunders against us.

Here are some things you can do against the typical Drukhari lists to improve your chances:

1. Split Fire, at least in your first unit's opening salvo, across mutliple vehicles. The best Drukhari Stratagems are defensive ones like Lightning Fast Reactions and Agents of Vect. When we don't know where the real weight of fire is going to fall, we can't make an easy call to spend CP to protect a valuable firing platform.

2. Don't rely on a single Stratagem to win you the game, and spend your Command Points aggressively in the early game to either defend your units and/or improve your damage output.

Some of us are virtually tabling opponents within 2-3 turns, and these opponents are still clutching Command Points even when their corpses hit the floor. CP are there to be spent. Use them to help you weather the storm.

3. Actually have a handle on how dangerous specific Drukhari units are....don't guess, don't cry, don't flail...just actually know what can hurt you and where, how far they move, and crop out what doesn't matter (we all find it really weird that so many of our opponents shoot Cronos Parasite Engines when we field them).

4. Some use of AoV is fairly obvious, but the most efficient uses of it are when we know our enemy and know what stratagems or tactics REALLY hurt to block. Think your Drukhari opponent doesn't really know your army well? Feint. Using AoV inefficiently can be crippling.

Draw it out as soon as possible, even if it forces you to use a powerful Stratagem slightly less efficiently, AoV ALWAYS costs us CP to use. There is only a 1/6 chance the countered Stratagem will cost you anything.

5. Focus on weathering the storm first before you start jostling for objectives. We don't usually care about what objectives you're claiming in the first two turns, we would rather focus on just completely crippling your most dangerous units.

6. Understand how Supersonic Flyers move and be hyperaware of where your opponent moves them. There are a LOT of variables playing through our head in the movement phase, and we're not perfect - keep a careful eye out and know what kind of movement/advance tricks and stratagems YOU have available to cut off a Flyer's movement and crash it. If you're being hemmed in by Flyers look at where they can possibly move and cut off that space. Even if you aren't crashing Flyers this way, you as the opponent still have some say in how and where they move.

Games Workshop lets you bust out a measuring tape any time you want, you probably notice your Drukhari opponents do so pretty liberally. Match them in their zeal for measuring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 19:48:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






DE are not OP atm, just change your lists and how you play FFS.

Try some Stalkers and HB spam, with mass bodies on top of that. Dont play Primaris vs them, dont play light vehicle vs them and dont play elite one trick pony win conditions.

   
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Of course then comes question if you make list good against DE how you deal with other armies? List tailoring vs known opponent isn't all that well looked and certainly isn't sign of good balance as if you tailor list against known opponent it's always bloody lot easier than trying to make list that should deal with wide variety of opponent.s

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tneva82 wrote:
Of course then comes question if you make list good against DE how you deal with other armies? List tailoring vs known opponent isn't all that well looked and certainly isn't sign of good balance as if you tailor list against known opponent it's always bloody lot easier than trying to make list that should deal with wide variety of opponent.s


No, its you are going to a tournament and you KNOW there will be DE, you take a couple units to help against them, guess what, those same usits are good against Harlequins, CWE, and other things as well. You dont list tailor, but you do change your list.

Taking out a large only trick pony single stratagem only unit for lets say some tacs/scouts with HB's or some Stalkers, that will mean AoV wont effect you and you now have an answer for Xenons.

   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





comparing Drukhari to space marines and saying they are op is like comparing them to a index army, we all know space marines are weak in general.

they are very strong indeed, but only the agents of vect is a game changer and for many opponents it means nothing or very little.

I play with and against drukhari quite a bit, I love them but also love crushing them with my crons.
   
Made in es
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot



Canary Island (Spain)

In my games against DE I goes crazy when I listen to my opponent every turn telling me what power he adds. Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).

But they are not unbeatable. Yes they are extreme fast, many -1 to hit because of "Fly", cheap heavy weapons, open transports, not an horde but they can have a lot of objectives and very fast...

A Saltker or two (one of them with Chronus) and missiles. You willl see how he gets nervous with the Stalkers. They also suffer agains heavy vehicles or Dreads.

I think you have to know how power ands drugs Works. Because everybody knows everything about SM for example. But after a couple of matches know i am beginning to know how DE works and how to play agains them.

Sorry for my English but i am working and have to answer fast.

OP how was the Tournament?

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Pretty sure that strategem costs more than 1cp. Plus you lose them only 1/6 times. Same chance as it to fail

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Killer Khymerae



Oxfordshire, UK

Alex_85 wrote:
Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).


AoV is 3 CP, not 1.

It's strong, but not unbearably so tbh.

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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot



Canary Island (Spain)

Jackers wrote:
Alex_85 wrote:
Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).


AoV is 3 CP, not 1.

It's strong, but not unbearably so tbh.


I thought it was cheaper. Thanks for info. Maybe I don't saw the cost because my rival had a 6 and got the CP. Awesome how every time I post on Dakka I learn something.


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Wicked Wych With a Whip




Agents of vect cost 3. On a 1 he spends his points and it doesn't work. On a 2-5 he spends, you fail and ypu get ypur points back. Its only on a 6 that you fail and lose ypur points.

But ot always costs 3.

(Same faction has a warlord trait to regain cp on a roll of a 6)
   
 
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