War of Secrets: WTF is it with Dark Angels?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Nightlord1987**

I predict they would have to up the ante for the Unfofgiven soon sometime or other, now that the HH series has shown us that nearly every Chapter had some sort of rebellion among themselves.

They really need to focus on the means never truly justifying the ends for them. Not so much that they are the traitors, but that they are just as heartless and merciless that it makes no difference.

**BrianDavion**

Ezaviel wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

Azreal generates +1 CP and regenerates CPs on a roll of 5+. Calgar gives +2 CPs and likewise renegerates CPs on a roll of 5+ thus if you're going to user their 8th edition stats, Calgar is a better commander then Azreal (although both are fantastic COs doin't get me wrong. In fact I think Azreal might be the better of the two over all. a Azreal backstopping a hellblaster gunline is no doubt amazing) so yeah, over all if you look at the RULES, Dark Angels are mearly a "close second" to the ultramarines in terms of command skill, the dark angels may be gifted commanders, but "turned warfare into a science" is more the Ultramarines schtick.

If you bring in all of the fluff, including the old fluff, you see that the difference is their perspectives on strategy as well.

The Ultramarines will plot the best strategy... within the boundaries of acceptable losses, and adherence to the dictates of the codex.
Dark Angels will plot the best strategy. To the point of not caring about collateral damage, or "niceties of war".

Case in point, in the days of Imperium Secundus, Robute agreed to making The Lion the Warmaster, because it was what he was best at.
When the Lion needs to crush rebels, his plan is much more direct, and much more damaging than what Robute or Sanguinius will let him get away with. He doesn't see why using phosphex, or orbital bombardments is a big deal. It means less of his troops die, and it's won faster, so he wants to do that.

A Dark Angel will win at any cost. An Ultramarine will not.

.

yes but the thing is I contend, that's not the mark of a master stratagist. Because the Dark Angels will happily destroy what they're fighting over. that is rarely a strategic win

**Sgt_Smudge**

Ezaviel wrote:If you bring in all of the fluff, including the old fluff, you see that the difference is their perspectives on strategy as well.

The Ultramarines will plot the best strategy... within the boundaries of acceptable losses, and adherence to the dictates of the codex.
Dark Angels will plot the best strategy. To the point of not caring about collateral damage, or "niceties of war".

Case in point, in the days of Imperium Secundus, Robute agreed to making The Lion the Warmaster, because it was what he was best at.
When the Lion needs to crush rebels, his plan is much more direct, and much more damaging than what Robute or Sanguinius will let him get away with. He doesn't see why using phosphex, or orbital bombardments is a big deal. It means less of his troops die, and it's won faster, so he wants to do that.

A Dark Angel will win at any cost. An Ultramarine will not.

Absolutely true on the difference of how they fight, but incorrect on the terms used.

The Dark Angel is a tactician. They will have brilliant tactics to get the job done. Their victory will be a textbook military and tactical one.
However, the Ultramarine is a strategist. Their mission will be to win strategically, which involves taking the ground that the Dark Angel destroyed so tactically. The Ultramarines win a strategic victory.

In many cases, this isn't mutually exclusive. Say a team of Ultramarines are buying time for a retreating taskforce against some Dark Angels. They might hold the position for days, after which the Dark Angels overwhelm and destroy the base with a brilliantly executed plan. The DA have won a great tactical and military victory, killing the Ultramarine garrison, but the Ultramarines were able to allow their brethren to escape, winning a strategic victory.

The culture of circles of knowledge and skill, the rigid hierarchy, the seriousness, the monastic nature, this all technically stems back to Caliban, not the fallen. It was just adapted to include the knowledge of the fallen. If you read the 30k stuff, the Angels were like this even back then.
So it does relate to the Fallen, like everything, but also predates them.

Yes, however in 40k, the Fallen are now irrevocably tied to all of those aspects now. It doesn't matter what it was like in 30k, unless you're writing a HH novel, because that right now, what used to be a "Caliban" thing is now a "Fallen" thing.

**Mr Morden**

Dark Angles had soem greta background and cultural influences before they went EMO monk - the whole native American inpsired Deathwing vs the Genestealers.

But now we just have - super super paranoid secret monks who show at every opportunity that they can;t be trusted.

**nareik**

Mr Morden wrote:
super super paranoid secret monks who show at every opportunity that they can;t be trusted.

Which is a shame, as Dark Angels pulling out to chase a Fallen wa meant to be rare; they were originally one of the chapters with the very best reputations, so on the rare occasion they did pull out it was meant to be all "WTF JUST HAPPENED?" not "LOL, those Derp Angels again!"

**Brother-Redemptor**

nareik wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
super super paranoid secret monks who show at every opportunity that they can;t be trusted.
Which is a shame, as Dark Angels pulling out to chase a Fallen wa meant to be rare; they were originally one of the chapters with the very best reputations, so on the rare occasion they did pull out it was meant to be all "WTF JUST HAPPENED?" not "LOL, those Derp Angels again!"

It really is a shame that there seems to be this pattern in modern 40k Dark Angel stories that seems determined to make them as one dimensional as possible. Whilst the likes of Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Blood Angels are seeing their chapters lore being expanded upon and becoming far more interesting, there seems to be this obsession with doubling down on this one aspect when it comes to the Dark Angels. They have hammered the point home so hard that there is nothing left to hammer in.

The Fallen are always going to play a pivotal role within their 40k story line, what with the possibility of a gathering Fallen legion their importance is only going to grow as the story moves forward. The importance of the Fallen is not really what is annoying reader's, rather the fact that any new 40k story focusing on them has become horribly formulaic and predictable. Each new story may have a handful of interesting elements but the story always seems to follow the exact same formula.

War of Secrets is a prime example of this, even before sitting down to read it you can safely predict how the story will go.
They have become the michael bay's transformers of the 40k setting.

**=Angel=**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You're certainly persuading me, and I have to admit that there's a good deal of those ideas which could make for good story hooks. However, the reason that the Dark Angel in these situations is because of the Fallen - maybe not directly, but from how they're raised, trained, indoctrinated - it's all about the Fallen for them. You've definitely brought me more sympathetic to a Greenwing DA story (if it focused on these aspects), but the point stands still that the reason they feel this way is fundamentally related to the Fallen. Thus, to expect a DA story with no narrative for the Fallen would be lacking a massive part of who the DA are.

Well, there's Fallen, the story focus du jour and Fallen, the background reason for the current state of affairs.

The latter for me is a bit like Wayne's dead parents. They don't appear in every Batman outing, but we know that's why he dresses like Dracula to punch murder clowns and PhDs with gimmicks. The Fallen don't need to be mentioned once in a story and you can still experience the full suite of DA secrets and lies. 30k Lion is already keeping things from his brothers because that's how he rolls.

I see where you are coming from though. There's a ravenwing comic where they beat an ork horde and gargant by driving bikes fast and being awesome heroes, to the max.
There's nothing of the DA there except a colour scheme. It must be done right.

**Formosa**

“ They have been keeping secrets for so long that it’s past the point of no return, they are now terrified not of the secret, but the shame of being found out”

Leneer, Babylon 5

Pretty apt I think

**SickSix**

I am just going to comment a couple things. That I understand and sympathize with the OP. If a Ultramarine can be interesting, then so can a DA Tactical Sergeant from 4th Co. 'But why write that when you can do it with some other chapter?' Why not!? Becuase of reasons already stated. The DA are the 1st Legion, proud and famous. Severly disciplined. Are they as strategically gifted as their Primarch? Well that would be an interesting thing to find out.

Also, those who keep parroting the 'Fallen is the only thing that makes them interesting', Is the only thing that makes the Alpha legion interesting their sneakyness? The HH writers stated they kind of regretted Legion becuase then the masses assumed that book portrayed the entirety of the legion and its modus operandi. They said we should remember that the XXth is still an Astartes Legion and does fight like an Astartes Legion. So we are supposed to see that in an upcoming book.

**BrianDavion**

SickSix wrote:
I am just going to comment a couple things. That I understand and sympathize with the OP. If a Ultramarine can be interesting, then so can a DA Tactical Sergeant from 4th Co. 'But why write that when you can do it with some other chapter?' Why not!? Becuase of reasons already stated. The DA are the 1st Legion, proud and famous. Severly disciplined. Are they as strategically gifted as their Primarch? Well that would be an interesting thing to find out.

Also, those who keep parroting the 'Fallen is the only thing that makes them interesting', Is the only thing that makes the Alpha legion interesting their sneakyness? The HH writers stated they kind of regretted Legion becuase then the masses assumed that book portrayed the entirety of the legion and its modus operandi. They said we should remember that the XXth is still an Astartes Legion and does fight like an Astartes Legion. So we are supposed to see that in an upcoming book.

people say that because someone is complaining that the first novel involving Primaris dark angels involved the fallen. it was important because they needed to show how the primaris marines slotted into that whole aspect.

**oldravenman3025**

Da Butcha wrote:
So, yet another Dark Angels novel, and yet another completely fethed up representation of the Chapter. Why does EVERYONE write them this way?

I'm not a DA fanboy. Heck, I'm an Ork fanboy. I don't expect them to be the coolest, or the toughest, or the bravest.

Hell, I've reluctantly accepted that they are the feckless douchebags of 40K. I don't know why the writers decided that they were going to be the biggest asshats in the Imperium, or why they were going to have insanely counter-productive traditions, or even whey they decided to firmly establish that literally everything that went wrong for the Dark Angels is their own damn fault.

But fine. They are colossal f***-ups, inveterate jerks, and way more traitorous than half the inhabitants of the Eye. Fine. That's the way you want to write them--great.

But for all that's holy, they have TEN COMPANIES. Do the Third through the Tenth EVER do anything interesting? Is every single action anywhere in the galaxy spearheaded by the Ravenwing and overseen by the Deathwing?

So, the plot of War of Secrets is that newly assigned squads of Primaris Marines are attached to a Dark Angels operation, and nobody seems to trust them, and they oversee the Deathwing doing something sketchy, and they find out that the force is actually hunting down a 'renegade' Dark Angel and is willing to ally with Xenos to slay their own brethren (in the Angels of Absolution) and kill Imperial Citizens for the Tau as well. Plus, they learn that they are being used by the DA as cannon fodder and mindwiped after the battles.

Seriously? You're bringing entirely new Marines into the Dark Angels, so you decide to send them on "Hunt the Fallen" mission first thing, and just hope they don't learn anything about it? You couldn't find a SINGLE strike force ANYWHERE that you could attach a few squads of Primaris to that wasn't being actively suborned by the First and Second companies? Do the Dark Angels do ANYTHING but hare all over the galaxy like a rabbit-scenting beagle for the Fallen? They aren't embroiled in any wars, or garrisoning any planets, or guarding anything? All of them are hunting the Fallen all the freaking time, and 80% of the marines just haven't cottoned on to it yet?

I hate, hate, hate that the ONLY thing that GW seems to find interesting about the DA is the Hunt for the Fallen. It makes the Chapter seem freaking useless and it makes 80% of their marines seem like morons. How can you do NOTHING but be led around by your noses by the Ravenwing and the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries, but not figure out what's up.

If the occasional rumor of the Fallen came across the Deathwing every once is a while, and they occasionally abandoned their allies for inexplicable reasons, they would seem aloof and mysterious and maybe not to be trusted. If, instead, every mission we ever learn about is one where the Dark Angels screw over the Imperium to go do their own thing, then it kind of seems like that's ALL THEY DO, and it seems like the Imperium would regard them as such.

"No thank you. We respectfully decline the assistance of the Dark Angels, as we are sure that, like in every previous engagement known to mankind, you will bugger off and leave us in the lurch. We will utilize the assistance of someone more reliable, like Blood Axe mercenaries. They only betray us about 50% of the time."

The Space Wolves don't ONLY fight Thousand Sons. The Salamanders don't only fight Dark Eldar. The Ultramarines don't only fight Tyranids. Why is the ONLY interesting thing that any writer can seem to write about the Dark Angels is their 'completely secret, totally mysterious hunt for the Fallen." GIVE IT A REST.

THESE NOVELS ARE HERETICAL PROPAGANDA. THE DARK ANGELS ARE THE MOST LOYAL AND DEVOTED CHAPTER IN THE IMPERIUM. THESE SUPPOSED "FALLEN" ARE ACTUALLY TURNCOATS FROM THE NINE TRAITOR LEGIONS THAT IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE LOYAL SONS OF THE LION.

I love those Dark Angels edits.

**Skaorn**

BrianDavion wrote:

people say that because someone is complaining that the first novel involving Primaris dark angels involved the fallen. it was important because they needed to show how the primaris marines slotted into that whole aspect.

Should this be tackled in one book though? I mean the DA are basically patterned after the Knights Templar, if you can't do more with that than "they have a dark secret that could undo them" you aren't trying hard. Personally I'd go for a trilogy that goes from the Primaris perspective of being an outsider that has to earn respect after Bobby G told the DA they had to take them in the first, having earn respect but now having to navigate the various martial, political, and spiritual maneuvering while still kind of being an outsider in the second, and then saving the Fallen for the third but probably with the revelation that the Primaris had faced the Fallen before but were mind wiped. I probably would have another Primaris close to the main and experiences everything with the main so at the end I can have one remain loyal were the other gets swayed by the Fallen and declares the DA BS. They'd be easy to write and wouldn't try to force that much into one book.

**Andykp**

thekingofkings wrote:
one of the reasons I am dumping my 40k dark angels (good with the 30k )

Me too. That and they looked too short next to my primaris marines.

**Hatachi**

I may be an oddball here, but I wish they would push the tactically brilliant questing knight part more. What got me to finally buy into 40K in 6th edition was the cool robes of the greenwing starter box. I like death/ raven okay, but they aren't the view of your average sergeant in the 5th company.

**Nightlord1987**

Lion should just wake up, and immediately spill the beans.

Openly admit to the Imperium they have Traitors active from the HH age, and demand supreme authority to bring them in to justice. Then the DA and their successors begin their own crusade.Cats out of the bag so go full tilt into it. "Hey, we hear you might have fallen somewhere here, LET US INTERROGATE".

Reinvent them. They should be actively hunting Herertic Astartes. Its not just Fallen that have to be purged but every traitor in existence. More Abyssal Crusades where DeathWing Terminators launch themselves into the eye of Terror looking for fights. Perhaps their Primarch is on a repentance crusade for missing out on the Siege of Terra and protecting the Imperium. Whatever the reasons are, shape them into THE anti CSM faction (like they used to be). They can still rival with Space Wolves who want to take claim as hunters of the Emprah. And lets see some DA vs Wulfen battles.

I think whats stale in the storyline is how unimpressive their secret has become. HH novels have shown us traitors gone loyal and loyalists gone traitor in near every Legion.

Second Thoughts:

I suppose the real issue for DA is the Imperiums complete censorship of Chaos or Heretic Astartes. Its not so much that there are Traitor Marines out there, but that noone should ever know? To the average imperial citizen it is unfathomable that the Emperors own holy Angels of Death could be corruptable in any way, and even suggesting it will get you and your family lobotomized.

Is that really it? They just Cant admit what their problem is to anyone?

Couldnt this be fixed by a Pardon of some sort?

Lets see where exactly the DA fluff can move on to.

**TangoTwoBravo**

I haven't read the book yet, but I intend to. The secret of the Fallen is kinda central to the Dark Angels. I agree that it can be overdone, but I think that a novel covering how Primaris are integrated into the Dark Angels makes sense.

Gav Thorpe's core trilogy does a great job of showing standard line company Dark Angels in addition to Ravenwing, Deathwing and the Inner Circle.

I find most Space Marine/40K fiction a little cartoony. The Dark Angels books and such Horus Heresy books that I have read, however, (at book 6 now) work for me because of the underlying tension of secrets, loyalty and betrayal. I care about the characters in large part due to their place in that context of honour/dishonor.

The cool thing about works of fiction is that you are not forced to read them unless you are in school and they are part of the curriculum. If you don't want to read a book about the Dark Angels and their secrets, well, don't read it.

**Mellow**

I normally try to read these new post GS novels but I think I lost interest in this one when a Chaos god of the greater good came out and saved the t’au who are just blanks on the blankometer. Crazy.

**Mr Morden**

Mellow wrote:
I normally try to read these new post GS novels but I think I lost interest in this one when a Chaos god of the greater good came out and saved the t’au who are just blanks on the blankometer. Crazy.

Tau are not Blanks - never have been - they are "blunt" - its a common mistake.

**Ezaviel**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ezaviel wrote:If you bring in all of the fluff, including the old fluff, you see that the difference is their perspectives on strategy as well.

The Ultramarines will plot the best strategy... within the boundaries of acceptable losses, and adherence to the dictates of the codex.
Dark Angels will plot the best strategy. To the point of not caring about collateral damage, or "niceties of war".

Case in point, in the days of Imperium Secundus, Robute agreed to making The Lion the Warmaster, because it was what he was best at.
When the Lion needs to crush rebels, his plan is much more direct, and much more damaging than what Robute or Sanguinius will let him get away with. He doesn't see why using phosphex, or orbital bombardments is a big deal. It means less of his troops die, and it's won faster, so he wants to do that.

A Dark Angel will win at any cost. An Ultramarine will not.
Absolutely true on the difference of how they fight, but incorrect on the terms used.

The Dark Angel is a tactician. They will have brilliant tactics to get the job done. Their victory will be a textbook military and tactical one.
However, the Ultramarine is a strategist. Their mission will be to win strategically, which involves taking the ground that the Dark Angel destroyed so tactically. The Ultramarines win a strategic victory.

In many cases, this isn't mutually exclusive. Say a team of Ultramarines are buying time for a retreating taskforce against some Dark Angels. They might hold the position for days, after which the Dark Angels overwhelm and destroy the base with a brilliantly executed plan. The DA have won a great tactical and military victory, killing the Ultramarine garrison, but the Ultramarines were able to allow their brethren to escape, winning a strategic victory.

I used strategy because I meant strategy. The last codex alone repeatedly refers to The Lion and the Dark Angels as brilliant/gifted/superb strategists. Their Warlord trait "Brilliant Strategist" says that "the commanders of the Dark Angels share a measure of their Primarchs vaunted strategic brilliance". Robute didn't make The Lion a general to focus on tactics. He made The Lion the Warmaster, in charge of Strategy, because he felt The Lion was more suited to it than he.
If anyone would follow a perfect textbook battle plan, it would be the Ultramarines. The Dark Angels would probably pick the pragmatic, effective, but probably less honourable/glorious way to win that fight. They would only destroy the base if it was not needed for their overall strategy.
Traditionally, the Dark Angels don't throw away the War to win a battle, they are supposed to be renowned for doing the opposite. When The Lion captured Curze, he did so not by outfighting him, or out maneuvering him, he out planned him, and beat him by preparing several moves ahead.
Though when they get angry, they do some dumb stuff. Case in point, Cypher trolling them into making mistakes all the time.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Ezaviel wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ezaviel wrote:If you bring in all of the fluff, including the old fluff, you see that the difference is their perspectives on strategy as well.

The Ultramarines will plot the best strategy... within the boundaries of acceptable losses, and adherence to the dictates of the codex.
Dark Angels will plot the best strategy. To the point of not caring about collateral damage, or "niceties of war".

Case in point, in the days of Imperium Secundus, Robute agreed to making The Lion the Warmaster, because it was what he was best at.
When the Lion needs to crush rebels, his plan is much more direct, and much more damaging than what Robute or Sanguinius will let him get away with. He doesn't see why using phosphex, or orbital bombardments is a big deal. It means less of his troops die, and it's won faster, so he wants to do that.

A Dark Angel will win at any cost. An Ultramarine will not.
Absolutely true on the difference of how they fight, but incorrect on the terms used.

The Dark Angel is a tactician. They will have brilliant tactics to get the job done. Their victory will be a textbook military and tactical one.
However, the Ultramarine is a strategist. Their mission will be to win strategically, which involves taking the ground that the Dark Angel destroyed so tactically. The Ultramarines win a strategic victory.

In many cases, this isn't mutually exclusive. Say a team of Ultramarines are buying time for a retreating taskforce against some Dark Angels. They might hold the position for days, after which the Dark Angels overwhelm and destroy the base with a brilliantly executed plan. The DA have won a great tactical and military victory, killing the Ultramarine garrison, but the Ultramarines were able to allow their brethren to escape, winning a strategic victory.

I used strategy because I meant strategy. The last codex alone repeatedly refers to The Lion and the Dark Angels as brilliant/gifted/superb strategists. Their Warlord trait "Brilliant Strategist" says that "the commanders of the Dark Angels share a measure of their Primarchs vaunted strategic brilliance". Robute didn't make The Lion a general to focus on tactics. He made The Lion the Warmaster, in charge of Strategy, because he felt The Lion was more suited to it than he.
If anyone would follow a perfect textbook battle plan, it would be the Ultramarines. The Dark Angels would probably pick the pragmatic, effective, but probably less honourable/glorious way to win that fight. They would only destroy the base if it was not needed for their overall strategy.
Traditionally, the Dark Angels don't throw away the War to win a battle, they are supposed to be renowned for doing the opposite. When The Lion captured Curze, he did so not by outfighting him, or out maneuvering him, he out planned him, and beat him by preparing several moves ahead.
Though when they get angry, they do some dumb stuff. Case in point, Cypher trolling them into making mistakes all the time.

I'm not saying you're using "strategy" wrongly, I'm saying GW are. When GW refer to "strategy", they should mean "tactics".

Strategically, Guilliman is superior. Tactically, the Lion is superior.
Guilliman would ensure that all resources are conserved in every situation - maximising his strategic potential, but may lose out on certain tactical options.
The Lion would ensure that his tactic will be the most effective, maximising his tactical potential, but will forfeit some strategic elements.

Lion was a better military commander than Guilliman, yeah - a tactical one. Guilliman was a better strategist and logician, however, which made him superior in a governing position.

**Dysartes**

Skaorn wrote:
Except that the Greater God is a philosophy, not a god, and this god was powerful enough to open a portal into real space to save the 4th sphere expansion fleet.

I can't tell if "Greater God" was a typo there or not - I'm really hoping it was deliberate, though

**Da Butcha**

BrianDavion wrote:

people say that because someone is complaining that the first novel involving Primaris dark angels involved the fallen. it was important because they needed to show how the primaris marines slotted into that whole aspect.

I have no problem with the first novel involving Primaris Dark Angels involving the Fallen.

I have a huge problem with the first novel with Primaris DA having those Primaris, on their very first actual combat mission ever, being put in a mission that involves hunting the Fallen, finding out what's going on, and being inducted into a brand-spanking new Primaris Inner Circle.

The first is fine. The second is ridiculous.

The DA don't trust their own recruits with these secrets, or even the opportunity to learn these secrets. Why would they accept newcomers into their ranks (especially newcomers viewed with suspicion for their ties to Guilliman and Mars) and immediately put them in a mission where they might observe the actions of the Deathwing? How could any Chapter have kept this a secret if their security procedures are this farcical?

If the Fallen are supposed to be some great big secret, then the writing needs to reflect that. It doesn't mean you can't reveal the secret, but the revelation needs to be meaningful and attained through great loyalty, diligence, and sacrifice, not by happening to look 'over there' during a combat mission.

**Skaorn**

Mr Morden wrote:
Mellow wrote:
I normally try to read these new post GS novels but I think I lost interest in this one when a Chaos god of the greater good came out and saved the t’au who are just blanks on the blankometer. Crazy.

Tau are not Blanks - never have been - they are "blunt" - its a common mistake.

Being 420 friendly is one of the big recruitment draws.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dysartes wrote:
Skaorn wrote:
Except that the Greater God is a philosophy, not a god, and this god was powerful enough to open a portal into real space to save the 4th sphere expansion fleet.

I can't tell if "Greater God" was a typo there or not - I'm really hoping it was deliberate, though

No, it was spellchecker seeing I capitalized Good and thought I meant God. I didn't notice that it changed it. When I just typed Good it attempted to change it again on me.

**Hatachi**

War of Secrets is a prime example of this, even before sitting down to read it you can safely predict how the story will go.
They have become the michael bay's transformers of the 40k setting.

War of Secrets 2: Revenge of the Fallen (too easy)

EDIT: quote Brother-Redemptor. Phone acted screwy.

**Asherian Command**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Nareik hits it perfectly on the head.

One of the most interesting features of the Dark Angels is their Hunt for the Fallen. It's probably the main thing that makes them unique.
First Founding? There's eight other Chapters. "Legion" strength? Space Wolves/any Traitor faction. Loves plasma? Well, that's both flanderization, and good luck writing a story which is based on the premise of plasma guns.

Having a morally ambiguous and sinister group of "Loyalists" is one of the main things the DA have going for them. After all - if you're going to write for the Dark Angels, there's no point writing about their 3rd-10th Companies when they're practically the same as any other Chapter - you might as well write for another Chapter and give them more fleshed out material.

I also think you're missing the point on "Space Wolves don't only fight Thousand Sons/Ultramarines don't always fight Tyranids": firstly, Space Wolves often DO fight Thousand Sons, and a great deal of stories are about that. However, it's not who they fight that matters - it's using their "foe" as a way to explore the Chapter and it's flaws and traits.

For the Space Wolves, the trait that gets focused on is their relationship to the wider Imperium, but also savage vs scholar - their animalistic natures versus the deeper thought and knowledge that they must temper it with. This is shown in the embodiment of the Thousand Sons.

For the Blood Angels, a lot of their stories focus on the Red Thirst/Black Rage/Sanguinius - because those shape the Chapter and give depth for us to explore.

The Ultramarines' flaw? Not Tyranids. Not Word Bearers. The Codex. So many Ultramarine stories deal with the protagonist struggling against their own confines of honour and duty - any novel that doesn't is nearly always because they're the Ultranmarines, and therefore poster boys.

The Dark Angels' thing is the Fallen. And frankly, considering the amount of people questioning how the Primaris would fit in to that, it would be insulting if GW did a Primaris story for the DA in the 4th Company.

The Dark Angels also had that whole Knights in Power Armor flavor that 30k is going on about and basing them on the Wings of an Angel.

**Andykp**

The piscina iv book is quite a good one as it doesn’t have any skullduggery going on. It’s just dark angels going at it with ORKS. And being arrogant pricks. It’s an older book but at the minute all the emphasis is on the first two companies and the “secret”. Which really should be more secret.

**Hatachi**

Asherian Command wrote:

The Dark Angels also had that whole Knights in Power Armor flavor that 30k is going on about and basing them on the Wings of an Angel.

I wish they would push the questing knight motif so much harder. Maybe if the Lion gets released in 40k he'll push them in that direction but who knows.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Asherian Command wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Nareik hits it perfectly on the head.

One of the most interesting features of the Dark Angels is their Hunt for the Fallen. It's probably the main thing that makes them unique.
First Founding? There's eight other Chapters. "Legion" strength? Space Wolves/any Traitor faction. Loves plasma? Well, that's both flanderization, and good luck writing a story which is based on the premise of plasma guns.

Having a morally ambiguous and sinister group of "Loyalists" is one of the main things the DA have going for them. After all - if you're going to write for the Dark Angels, there's no point writing about their 3rd-10th Companies when they're practically the same as any other Chapter - you might as well write for another Chapter and give them more fleshed out material.

I also think you're missing the point on "Space Wolves don't only fight Thousand Sons/Ultramarines don't always fight Tyranids": firstly, Space Wolves often DO fight Thousand Sons, and a great deal of stories are about that. However, it's not who they fight that matters - it's using their "foe" as a way to explore the Chapter and it's flaws and traits.

For the Space Wolves, the trait that gets focused on is their relationship to the wider Imperium, but also savage vs scholar - their animalistic natures versus the deeper thought and knowledge that they must temper it with. This is shown in the embodiment of the Thousand Sons.

For the Blood Angels, a lot of their stories focus on the Red Thirst/Black Rage/Sanguinius - because those shape the Chapter and give depth for us to explore.

The Ultramarines' flaw? Not Tyranids. Not Word Bearers. The Codex. So many Ultramarine stories deal with the protagonist struggling against their own confines of honour and duty - any novel that doesn't is nearly always because they're the Ultranmarines, and therefore poster boys.

The Dark Angels' thing is the Fallen. And frankly, considering the amount of people questioning how the Primaris would fit in to that, it would be insulting if GW did a Primaris story for the DA in the 4th Company.

The Dark Angels also had that whole Knights in Power Armor flavor that 30k is going on about and basing them on the Wings of an Angel.

Yes, in 30k. Things were very different then.

However, seeing as most Chapter now are various flavours of "knight in power armour", and the most narratively dynamic thing the DA have is the Fallen, it absolutely makes sense to focus on that - not exclusively, but as a priority.