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Xenology mentions Qah and the Umbra, possibly the same being.

And I find it a complete cop out for any company that sells codices, resource books and novels to think they don't have a responsibility to make a coherent product. I didn't pay $40 for "I guess that could have happened, don't know if it makes sense, who cares".

Frankly those authors can say what they like, their actions speak otherwise, while I agree that in certain areas the canon ofn40k is not set in stone, in others it absolutely is, chaos is chaos, eldar are eldar (aeldari) and so on, the grey area comes in with the stories they portray, which in certain series are very consistent, other not so much.

So saying “there is no canon” is flat wrong, saying “nothing everything is canon” makes sense.

Bharring wrote:
The Old Ones "left" the galaxy to the Eldar in that the Old Ones were destroyed by the C'tan and their own Warp-based antics. The Necrons in theory won the War in Heaven, but retreated, leaving Eldar to dominate the galaxy. However, over the millions of years between the War in Heaven and the Fall, while the Eldar did dominate the galaxy, they didn't colonize and expand the way Mankind did in a short period. The Eldar empire owned the galaxy, only really developed worlds within what is now the Eye.

I swear that's the most common misconception about Eldar after people saying Eldars. Eldar had worlds everywhere.

Pm,
They had worlds elsewhere, sure. But not in the same way that Mankind had "had worlds elsewhere" when it expanded.

What I mean by that is that, when Mankind expanded, they typically settled what they could everywhere in their domain. Contrast that with the Eldar empire pre-fall: Terra, Ultramar, the Tau system, and far more were well within their domain, yet these were not settled by the Eldar people.

There are a couple potential disconnects in the history of the galaxy, where certain important plot points only really fit together if the Eldar didn't just settle everywhere they could:
-Where were the Eldar during DAoT? On their planets. Doing their things. They didn't feel compelled to stop DAoT mankind, yet atleast. If such an expansion threatened the Eldar, then they were not without challenge at that time, and thus would not be in the process of producing Slanesh. So why didn't they care? Best explanation is that it wasn't the Eldar that DAoT mankind took worlds from.
-Mankind spread too far for it to just be a case of DAoT mankind being just this small pocket of the galaxy.
-Same argument could be made during the Men of Iron

The best explaination I can come up with for such a powerful human ascent galactically without threatening Eldar is the Eldar not spreading across worlds the way Mankind did.

I guess 40k does have a canon of sorts, a fluid one based of collective consensus. Like a mythology it changes and evolves as different storytellers add into it, with the overall "joke" or "shtick" being that all the 40k media is coming from an in-universe unreliable narrators perspective, and as such being inherently biased or incomplete to one way or another. As, in a decaying universe with no galactic internet or gps, any information given cannot be relied to be up to date.

Sadly GW doesn't engage in it nearly as much as it used to, with the old 3rd codexes or FWs imperial armours having much of their exposition in the form of letter, reports, diaries, diagrams, excerpts and such, making it much clearer that the information given might not be accurate either unintentionally or by desing. A lot more engaging way to convey information about the universe than the modern way of just matter-of-factly explaining things, in my humble opinion.

Letting every one make up their own mind about what is and isn't canon doesn't mean that the 40k universe doesn't have consistency or continuity, as it has demostrated through out its existence.

Bharring wrote:
Pm,
They had worlds elsewhere, sure. But not in the same way that Mankind had "had worlds elsewhere" when it expanded.

What I mean by that is that, when Mankind expanded, they typically settled what they could everywhere in their domain. Contrast that with the Eldar empire pre-fall: Terra, Ultramar, the Tau system, and far more were well within their domain, yet these were not settled by the Eldar people.

There are a couple potential disconnects in the history of the galaxy, where certain important plot points only really fit together if the Eldar didn't just settle everywhere they could:
-Where were the Eldar during DAoT? On their planets. Doing their things. They didn't feel compelled to stop DAoT mankind, yet atleast. If such an expansion threatened the Eldar, then they were not without challenge at that time, and thus would not be in the process of producing Slanesh. So why didn't they care? Best explanation is that it wasn't the Eldar that DAoT mankind took worlds from.
-Mankind spread too far for it to just be a case of DAoT mankind being just this small pocket of the galaxy.
-Same argument could be made during the Men of Iron

The best explaination I can come up with for such a powerful human ascent galactically without threatening Eldar is the Eldar not spreading across worlds the way Mankind did.

Eldar travel through the old ones webway, no webway no eldar and the humans travel on Warp current from one starsystem to the next, no Warp currents no humans. Becides, most of the galaxys is Ork space anyway, and going to war with them in places that have high concentrations of them is an exercise in futility, as more you push more they just push back.

I think if they had strict rigid canon the game wouldn’t have survived 30 years. All things can change and be changed.

Bharring wrote:
Pm,
They had worlds elsewhere, sure. But not in the same way that Mankind had "had worlds elsewhere" when it expanded.

What I mean by that is that, when Mankind expanded, they typically settled what they could everywhere in their domain. Contrast that with the Eldar empire pre-fall: Terra, Ultramar, the Tau system, and far more were well within their domain, yet these were not settled by the Eldar people.

There are a couple potential disconnects in the history of the galaxy, where certain important plot points only really fit together if the Eldar didn't just settle everywhere they could:
-Where were the Eldar during DAoT? On their planets. Doing their things. They didn't feel compelled to stop DAoT mankind, yet atleast. If such an expansion threatened the Eldar, then they were not without challenge at that time, and thus would not be in the process of producing Slanesh. So why didn't they care? Best explanation is that it wasn't the Eldar that DAoT mankind took worlds from.
-Mankind spread too far for it to just be a case of DAoT mankind being just this small pocket of the galaxy.
-Same argument could be made during the Men of Iron

The best explaination I can come up with for such a powerful human ascent galactically without threatening Eldar is the Eldar not spreading across worlds the way Mankind did.

I'm not going to argue that Eldar spread in the same way humanity did because as you've said they probably didn't. But you can't say that they were only developing worlds around the eye. Every world with a Webway gate and every Maiden world was at least partially colonised by Eldar. There was also the fact they were building webway settlements.

Pretty sure the Necrons retreated at the end of theWar in Heaven because the enslavers turned up and started ruining everything.

Also I believe Humanity left the Eldar alone as they had a non agression pact because at the time of the DAoT Humanity was quite capable of defeating the Eldar and the Eldar probably just wanted to be left alone to enjoy other ... activities associated with spawning a Chaos god.

Mellow wrote:
Pretty sure the Necrons retreated at the end of theWar in Heaven because the enslavers turned up and started ruining everything.

Also I believe Humanity left the Eldar alone as they had a non agression pact because at the time of the DAoT Humanity was quite capable of defeating the Eldar and the Eldar probably just wanted to be left alone to enjoy other ... activities associated with spawning a Chaos god.

No. IIRC Newcrons left entirely because they couldn't take Eldar after fighting the C'Tan and the Enslaver thing is just oldcrons.

Humanity wasn't capable of dealing with the Eldar at all. The Eldar Empire had exactly 0 threats to it which is part of what caused the Fall.

According to a shadowseer in beast arises humanity and the eldar co existed peacefully, she could of course be lying but who knows.

There is a big issue however and that is that the humans are everywhere, where as the eldar controlled a small pocket of the galaxy, no empire would allow another to completely surround it.

That leaves two options.

Either the eldar didn’t care that humanity surrounded it, as they were close allies.

Or

The eldar could not stop them, either through inferior tech (possible if unlikely) or inferior numbers with comparable tech (more likely) both the eldar and DAOT humans had the ability to create and destroy stars, planets and whole populations, mutually assured destruction could have kept it To border skirmishes, the eldar say they won those, the humans say the same, we will never know.

I don't see how the Eldar controlled a small pocket of anything. They were the dominant power of their time by a mile so I think it's fair to say they were everywhere.

If DAoT could threaten The Eldar empire, then the Eldar empire had a threat.

If the Eldar empire had a threat, they weren't undisputed masters of the galaxy.

If Eldar weren't undisputed masters of the galaxy, they had something to work towards/fight against.

The hedonism that caused the Fall happened specifically because they had nothing to work towards/fight against. As such, DAoT threatening them breaks the continuity.

There is a third option:
Eldar were so powerful, that Mankind wasn't a threat. And Mankind spreading like they did didn't bother the Eldar.

In this model, DAoT still isn't a threat to Eldar (so the Fall can still happen). But Mankind still does spread as it did.

That option seems to be the only one that meshes with the Fall. Any scenario where DAoT would likely be a challenge (even not much of one) doesn't work with the cause of the Fall.


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To be clear: what I was suggesting is that heavy colonization/expansion was a "small pocket" around the Eye. They did expand/colonize elsewhere: wherever, whenever they felt like it. Irrespective of whatever else might have been there. But they didn't feel like expanding. Why move away from all the entertainment of the core of civilization?

Eldar don't seem to have the exponential growth rates that Humanity has. Their cultivation patterns even as the dominant power is likely to have been different.

pm713 wrote:
I don't see how the Eldar controlled a small pocket of anything. They were the dominant power of their time by a mile so I think it's fair to say they were everywhere.

The eye is the biggest clue, they had a small (relatively) pocket of the milky way, that’s still a lot of planets, when slaanesh popped into existence it tore the heart of the eldar empire out and all of their core planets, how do we know this, because of the craftworlds and exodites were the only survivors... and the dark eldar but they were in the webway, any large pockets outside of that zone survived (exodites and craftworlds).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If DAoT could threaten The Eldar empire, then the Eldar empire had a threat.

If the Eldar empire had a threat, they weren't undisputed masters of the galaxy.

If Eldar weren't undisputed masters of the galaxy, they had something to work towards/fight against.

The hedonism that caused the Fall happened specifically because they had nothing to work towards/fight against. As such, DAoT threatening them breaks the continuity.

There is a third option:
Eldar were so powerful, that Mankind wasn't a threat. And Mankind spreading like they did didn't bother the Eldar.

In this model, DAoT still isn't a threat to Eldar (so the Fall can still happen). But Mankind still does spread as it did.

That option seems to be the only one that meshes with the Fall. Any scenario where DAoT would likely be a challenge (even not much of one) doesn't work with the cause of the Fall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear: what I was suggesting is that heavy colonization/expansion was a "small pocket" around the Eye. They did expand/colonize elsewhere: wherever, whenever they felt like it. Irrespective of whatever else might have been there. But they didn't feel like expanding. Why move away from all the entertainment of the core of civilization?

Eldar don't seem to have the exponential growth rates that Humanity has. Their cultivation patterns even as the dominant power is likely to have been different.

See that doesn’t work, eldar say they were the masters, DAOT humans claim the same, if they never considered humans a threat then that’s just trade Mark eldar arrogance.

Also if the shadowseer was telling the truth and they were allies at one point that means that there must have been an outside force worth allying against, otherwise why ally with an inferior race?

Like i said we will never know for sure and it’s all conjecture.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't see how the Eldar controlled a small pocket of anything. They were the dominant power of their time by a mile so I think it's fair to say they were everywhere.

The eye is the biggest clue, they had a small (relatively) pocket of the milky way, that’s still a lot of planets, when slaanesh popped into existence it tore the heart of the eldar empire out and all of their core planets, how do we know this, because of the craftworlds and exodites were the only survivors... and the dark eldar but they were in the webway, any large pockets outside of that zone survived (exodites and craftworlds).

The eye is the centre of what was the Empire. That doesn't indicate the overall size of their territory, if the same thing happened to the Imperium then it would cover our solar system at most.

They were an empire of ten thousand stars and have Exodite worlds on most of the galactic rim which are fringe worlds. So it's fairly obvious they were a galaxy wide empire.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't see how the Eldar controlled a small pocket of anything. They were the dominant power of their time by a mile so I think it's fair to say they were everywhere.

The eye is the biggest clue, they had a small (relatively) pocket of the milky way, that’s still a lot of planets, when slaanesh popped into existence it tore the heart of the eldar empire out and all of their core planets, how do we know this, because of the craftworlds and exodites were the only survivors... and the dark eldar but they were in the webway, any large pockets outside of that zone survived (exodites and craftworlds).

The eye is the centre of what was the Empire. That doesn't indicate the overall size of their territory, if the same thing happened to the Imperium then it would cover our solar system at most.

They were an empire of ten thousand stars and have Exodite worlds on most of the galactic rim which are fringe worlds. So it's fairly obvious they were a galaxy wide empire.

It’s a very good indicator of how big the empire was, just bare in mind that even a small pocket of the Milky Way is still tens of thousands of worlds, the eye holds an unknown number of planets, even the imperium with its million worlds is still a small pocket empire in comparison to the size of the Milky Way, it’s all relative.

"Also if the shadowseer was telling the truth and they were allies at one point that means that there must have been an outside force worth allying against, otherwise why ally with an inferior race? "

I have an alliance with this green weed that grows all over my yard. It softens the ground where I walk. But when it gets too long, I cut it down. I would certainly consider that weed lesser than I. It's more numerous, but it's not a threat to me. Although it is a threat to my plans to paint tonight (needs to be put in it's place again).

Humans were just a flavor of sea slime that wasn't a problem. No need to put it in it's place. If it would have been difficult to put them in their place, the Eldar would have found challenge in it. They did anything they could in that time period to find a challenge.

"if they never considered humans a threat then that’s just trade Mark eldar arrogance."
A good point. DAoT could possibly have been strong enough to be a threat to Eldar - as long as the Eldar couldn't realize that. Because, if they did realize the DAoT could be a threat, we're back to Eldar having a challenge, and thus no Slanesh.

As to Eldar on non-Core worlds, Slanesh started devouring them, too. Being outside the Eye didn't save them, although it did give them some time. Even in the year 40k, an unprotected Eldar in the universe is quickly consumed by Slanesh (how quickly isn't entirely clear). So even Eldar worlds outside the core were affected destroyed - even Exodite worlds and Craftworlds are affected - I'll get to that.

Exodites are Space-Elf Amish. They left Eldar society *before* the fall. They weren't just a world that was far away, they were a different way of life. But they found a way to save their soul. I've seen it reference to the Wraithbone core/something in the core of their planets, similar to an Infinity Circuit, being involved, but I don't know the details.

Craftworlders also left the Empire, knowing it was doomed. These were more doomsday-cult style groups than Space Amish. They found out that Spirit Stones could stave off damnation, which is the only reason they survived.

In both cases, the distance from the Eye helped, but that alone did not save them. Distance wasn't the only difference. For example, Uthwe left a bit late, and didn't even escape the Eye itself before the Fall, but still survived.

Dark Eldar stave off damnation through the brutality and torture they inflict on others. That probably feeds Slanesh, but that's not 100%. If they stop feeding whatever it is they feed that way, they too die quickly.

So, any worlds outside the Eye that didn't find similar protection - things typically found through one of the variant lifestyles listed above - would have died off quickly, as every inhabitant was devoured. The further from the Eye the longer it would take, but it wouldn't take 10 thousand years. The absence of Eldar worlds in the year 40k thus doesn't prove an absence of Eldar worlds in the year 30k.

Bharring wrote:
"Also if the shadowseer was telling the truth and they were allies at one point that means that there must have been an outside force worth allying against, otherwise why ally with an inferior race? "

I have an alliance with this green weed that grows all over my yard. It softens the ground where I walk. But when it gets too long, I cut it down. I would certainly consider that weed lesser than I. It's more numerous, but it's not a threat to me. Although it is a threat to my plans to paint tonight (needs to be put in it's place again).

Humans were just a flavor of sea slime that wasn't a problem. No need to put it in it's place. If it would have been difficult to put them in their place, the Eldar would have found challenge in it. They did anything they could in that time period to find a challenge.

"if they never considered humans a threat then that’s just trade Mark eldar arrogance."
A good point. DAoT could possibly have been strong enough to be a threat to Eldar - as long as the Eldar couldn't realize that. Because, if they did realize the DAoT could be a threat, we're back to Eldar having a challenge, and thus no Slanesh.

As to Eldar on non-Core worlds, Slanesh started devouring them, too. Being outside the Eye didn't save them, although it did give them some time. Even in the year 40k, an unprotected Eldar in the universe is quickly consumed by Slanesh (how quickly isn't entirely clear). So even Eldar worlds outside the core were affected destroyed - even Exodite worlds and Craftworlds are affected - I'll get to that.

Exodites are Space-Elf Amish. They left Eldar society *before* the fall. They weren't just a world that was far away, they were a different way of life. But they found a way to save their soul. I've seen it reference to the Wraithbone core/something in the core of their planets, similar to an Infinity Circuit, being involved, but I don't know the details.

Craftworlders also left the Empire, knowing it was doomed. These were more doomsday-cult style groups than Space Amish. They found out that Spirit Stones could stave off damnation, which is the only reason they survived.

In both cases, the distance from the Eye helped, but that alone did not save them. Distance wasn't the only difference. For example, Uthwe left a bit late, and didn't even escape the Eye itself before the Fall, but still survived.

Dark Eldar stave off damnation through the brutality and torture they inflict on others. That probably feeds Slanesh, but that's not 100%. If they stop feeding whatever it is they feed that way, they too die quickly.

So, any worlds outside the Eye that didn't find similar protection - things typically found through one of the variant lifestyles listed above - would have died off quickly, as every inhabitant was devoured. The further from the Eye the longer it would take, but it wouldn't take 10 thousand years. The absence of Eldar worlds in the year 40k thus doesn't prove an absence of Eldar worlds in the year 30k.

Your green weed isn’t a sentient race capable of destroying stats, creating worlds, making artificial intelligence, AI that can tell you how to make nearly anything from nearly anything, I get what your saying but if the eldar did not find this a threat, they were arrogant fools,’which is entirely in keeping with their backstory.

Excess covers many many things, given slaaneshs martial nature it stands to reason that a part of what created shim was warfare also given how the dark eldar behave, it seems pretty clear that olde eldar likely enjoyed it as part of their decadence, so i disagree eldar most likely fought plenty of wars during their fall from grace.

Being outside the eye clearly saved a lot of eldar, not speaking literally here but being at the centre of an explosion is a lot worse than being on the extreme edges, the core eldar worlds were totally destroyed and created the eye, that was clearly the centre of their empire, and was relatively small in galactic terms, also size does not equal density, we don’t know how many planets are in the eye, the empire was small, but still could have tens of thousands of colonised worlds, where as humanity as shown by the great crusade was extremely spread out among the Milky Way, totally surrounding the eldar empire, for your idea to work, the eldar must have had worlds within the DAOT human borders, if they existed peacefully with each other then your “weed” analogy does not make sense, as you would not live and trade with a species you find so worthless, it simply doesn’t make sense. As for your 40k comment, totally disregarding it, that goes without saying that we are not talking about 40k, that’s just stupid

Anywho, brew time for me, don’t want to put up a text wall be back in a bit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and bharing enjoying the discussion dude, I actually agree with a lot of what your saying but if I didn’t put up counter points it would be a boring discussion eh

Wasn’t a good bit of the eldar empire in the webway too?

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Except warhammer really has no canon, by GW own admission

 Formosa wrote:
Frankly those authors can say what they like, their actions speak otherwise...

Formosa hits the nail on the head.

I've been in the hobby longer than Black Library has existed, I remember Dan Abnett saying that any lore inconsistencies was down to his ignorance of the background. Much later we get other GW employees brushing off commentary about obvious mistakes with, "there is no canon".

But how have any of these authors subverted the Warhammer 40,000 background to introduce anything controversial?

What they should have said, and what their actions show that they meant, is merely a reiteration of what has been true about the hobby from the beginning: the 40K universe is so vast there are things in it that we haven't seen. Games Workshop and hobbyists alike can use this to create new background as it suits them.

Which brings us back to the subject at hand.

Anyone can write any fanon they want and have that as 'their truth' about 40K; no-one else has to accept it.

Personally I think bastardising the old Slaan background to make the 3rd Edition Codex: Necrons more interesting is the biggest, stinkiest pile of grox dung ever. That's my opinion on it, and mostly I can breath easy because GW retconned the hell out of it, and good!

So the Emperor as an Old One is a reasonably decent idea but there is quite a lot of detail, albeit old and maybe that's as it should be when discussing the Emperor, about His origins and life. If there was nothing, and this was a fan theory, it would hold more water.

And that is my main issue with the whole 'it was the Old Ones what done it' background, it was reductive, taking the reams of lore from the previous twelve years, snipping it down to a few key sentences and reattributing it to the Old Ones and the Necrontyr. Rubbish. Boring.

So reducing the Emperor to just another Old One, why?

Formossa,
Totally agree on your last point! Likewise! These threads are what make Dakka great!

If I had 10 cats (we did have 10 cats growing up... and 4 dogs... 13 horses... two turtles but one ran away... but I digress), would you say I trade with the cats? The cats might think they've come to terms with me. I would think it's my house, I just let the cats live there. That certainly doesn't make them my equal. And it doesn't mean I think of them as a threat (although, if one were a tiger, I certainly should...).

Add to it the Eldar arrogance, and they have been *entertained* by this young race that grows so quickly. Might have been fun watching them grow and struggle! The Eldar might decide to give them a few words of encouragement, and pretend to treat them as people, to keep them in their place and keep the show going, but that's not the same as actually thinking of them as people.

There are spiders in my house. I live with them. An exterminator might be able to kill them all. They even have technology that can trap bugs as they fly through the air! And it's got stealth fields, too! I suppose I somewhat "trade" with them in that they kill some of the more annoying bugs, and I only kill them when they get too uppity (and show themselves too obviously). That doesn't make spiders people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember that Eldar fought in the War in Heaven. How impressive is the DAoT technology when they cut their teeth fighting a race wielding the Celestial Orratory, and other such things?

On another note, remember that DAoT is impressive, but we're talking about a civilization that has actual, physically-manifesting-capable Gods. That actually acted and interacted with the people. Eldar "tech" would have been beyond DAoT, but even beyond that was their Warp shenanigans, up until Slanesh.

Finally, we don't see much about what Eldar military was like, pre-fall. The only sources I can think of are:
-One of the Ynnari wears pre-fall armor, or armor similar to pre-fall stuff (at least in terms of looks)
-Crystal Sons of Asuryan gives some insight into pre-Fall war, but very little
-Asurmen is suggested to have been a champion of the Eldar people pre-fall, although that's very suspect

It's unlikely that they used splinter weapons, as those seem to be Dark Eldar machinations, less about war and more about pain.

It also seems unlikely that the Shuriken Catapault was the standard line infantry gun pre-fall. Craftworlds have their own military, but they are not an offshoot of the pre-fall military.

What did a pre-fall Eldar army look like? I'd love to know. Anyone have any sources on that?

I thoughts pre fall military was almost entirely Wraithbone constructs?

Also why couldn’t the shuriken catapaukt be the standard line Weapon just because the Craftwolrders Use it? If we are comparing Exodites to Amish, and Craftworlders to EOTWAWKI/prepped types maybe the catapult was the eldar equivalent of the Ar-15 lol

The Eldar operate on a different timeline to humanity. They've had 60 million years to expand, reach their apex, and become decadent. For all we know, they spent the last million years in the self-absorbed build up to the fall, too secure in their arrogance and distracted by their hedonism to notice DAOT humans as anything other than some flash in the pan nuisance to worry about later.

We also have no idea when Eldar technology stagnated. 60 million years ago? Who knows? And while they did advance to fight the Necrons, the race gifted incredible technology by the C'Tan, that doesn't mean they are superior in absolute terms to DAOT humanity, the race inspired to incredible technology by a C'Tan. (The Emperor imprisoned the Dragon on Mars for this purpose.)

They could be too self-absorbed before the fall to notice something that could threaten them. That is possible.

Also, there could have been an exodus towards the core of the empire, as the hedonism increased. It's entirely possible that the shifting culture lead to shifting demographics. Pair that with Webway-living, and it's clear that the distribution of Eldar across the galaxy after 60 million years of supremecy wouldn't necessarily be discernable after another 10 thousand years of decline.

IIRC, Crystal Sons of Asuryan has Asurmen training creations of Asuryan, which fought for the Eldar, but then had to be destroyed when there was nothing left to fight. I'm thinking Asurmen's reference here is most likely inaccurate or a title shared between post-fall Asurmen and some other Eldar before it. But, if that's not the case, we know Eldar were fighting something within a lifetime of the Fall, and then had nobody left to fight.

What we can reasonably deduce of Eldar/DAoT Human interactions from the fluff, though, is that DAoT either did not threaten/attack Eldar ever, or truly weren't a threat. An actual conflict against a threat would have dispelled even Eldar arrogance, at least to the point where some of them would think "Hey, y'know what would be fun? Lets go blast some sea scum!". And that's all it would have taken to broaden the engagement. Which would result in either the end of DAoT mankind expansion (Eldar win laughably easily) or a prevention of Slanesh (Eldar have something to do).

There isn't much fluff about pre-fall Eldar tech. I do think it's likely that pre-fall Eldar would use Wraithbone constructs for war. But not Wraiths - those could not exist until Soulstones were in use. Not only did pre-Fall Eldar not have a need for Soulstones, but also they're only found in the Eye post-Slanesh. The constructs may have had similar forms, and may have been controlled in similar ways, but that's just conjecture.

Also, remember that CWE significantly restrict their psykers due to the Fall and Slanesh. We are told of Eldar using psyker powers/the warp extensively in battle. And of them bringing their Gods into the fight. (And, in one story, of one of their gods making constructs of war for them.) We don't know how strong they were - coudl one of them walk onto a capital ship and fry everyone's brains? Or were they "just" at the Farseer level? Not enough to go on.

The Shuriken Catapault has always felt like a sidearm to me. I suppose I let my biases get the better of me - it being the equivelent of an AR15 makes a certain amount of sense. However, the reasons for me thinking of it as a sidearm make even more sense pre-fall - their primary weapons would likely have been stuff like:
-Wraithbone constructs (vehicles and "robots")
-Psyker powers
-*GODS*
-Heavy weapons
With the Catapult just a handy way to kill someone if you didn't feel like melting their brains or calling in the big stuff.

I'd enjoy doing a 'pre-fall' army (if I had infinite time), but I'm not sure how I'd model them, or what rules would be best suited.

All very fine points people, I do wonder at the level of tech eldar eventually reached, currently they have comparable tech to the imperials (40k) but a much much higher base tech level, so a bolter while comparable to a shurikan catapult, the tech involved in the catapult is of a higher level (hope that makes sense), also given that eldar starships are likely the same tech level as pre fall (assumption), imperial ships are also comparable, in terms of firepower but at a grossly reduced tech level, we do know that some dark age ships and weapons existed during the heresy, black hole cannons (angels of Caliban), temporal distortion cannons (beast arises) and a varied array of exterminatus weapons, interestingly I remember a long time ago a small snippet of fluff said that virus weapons were actually a virus intended to cure various deseases and coded to attack them specifically, but the tech to code them was lost pre crusade, don’t think that’s canon anymore though.

As bob says we don’t know when the stagnation started with eldar, so it’s possible, if very unlikely, that current eldar tech was the pinnacle of what they reached, with a lot of the wonder tech lost like the imperials.

Interesting food for thought either way.

Something I find that helps keep the level Eldar Pre-Fall technology in perspective is to look at whose left. Harlequins are weird priests who took millennia to be able to act in a meaningful way, Dark Eldar live in a weird collection of port-cities who had to rebuild all of their technology from it's very basics to be able to use it, Craftworlders live on what are essentially trading ships that refugees enhanced as much as they could, Corsairs have what they can trade or outright scavenge and Exodites intentionally brought as little technology as they could.

In short, not one of them has anything close to proper Pre-Fall facilities to use. In a way they're like the Imperium - they use scraps of technology salvaged from the ruins of past glory.

Bharring wrote:
[snip] two turtles but one ran away...

How does one turtle run away?
Slowly!
Carry on.

Its not too late to post here, the thing about the Emperor being DAOT tech comes from a character in Master of Mankind who was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken from her by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to say stuff such as that. She is an enemy of the Emperor. I talked with ADB on Reddit and he said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.



And what she said was disproved by this guy in the quotes and links below (Dan Abnett's Perpetual Oll Persson).




He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.

That quote was from Mark of Calth. And this.

Oll takes out his compass, and checks the bearing as best he can. Thrascias. It still seems to be Thrascias. That used to be the word for the wind from the north-north-west, before the cardinal points of the compass rose were co-opted for other purposes and given more esoteric meanings. Thrascias. That's what the Grekans called it. That's what they called it when he sailed back across the sun-kissed waters to Thessaly in Iason's crew, with a witch and a sheep-skin to show for their efforts. The Romanii, they called it Circius. Down in the oardecks of the galleys, he hadn't much cared about the names of the winds they were rowing against. The Franks called it Nordvuestroni. - Know No Fear, pages 360 and 361.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

Besides, even if someone is opposed to the Emperor it does not mean that they're wrong - Emperor and those who share his views are not factually correct and those who oppose them are not factually wrong. Emperor maybe a kind philanthropist who knows what's best for humanity - or he maybe be a deluded tyrant who wants to take over the universe. one or the other, or maybe neither. Stories we get are from someones point of view and therefore biased - both in-universe and in real life, in a meta sense, since each writer has their own headcanon and theories that affects what and how they write. The 'Emps is from DAoT' theory comes from the late Alan Bligh (mayherestinpeace), while other writes have different opinions, none of which are any more correct than any other writers.

If every nugget of information from every story is to be taken at face value, as factually correct, then the universe is a mess of contradictions - that it has backflipping terminators and that land raiders can transform into razorbacks.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

Besides, even if someone is opposed to the Emperor it does not mean that they're wrong - Emperor and those who share his views are not factually correct and those who oppose them are not factually wrong. Emperor maybe a kind philanthropist who knows what's best for humanity - or he maybe be a deluded tyrant who wants to take over the universe. one or the other, or maybe neither. Stories we get are from someones point of view and therefore biased - both in-universe and in real life, in a meta sense, since each writer has their own headcanon and theories that affects what and how they write. The 'Emps is from DAoT' theory comes from the late Alan Bligh (mayherestinpeace), while other writes have different opinions, none of which are any more correct than any other writers.

If every nugget of information from every story is to be taken at face value, as factually correct, then the universe is a mess of contradictions - that it has backflipping terminators and that land raiders can transform into razorbacks.

I am well aware of this. I talked with ADB on Reddit and he said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. And that woman in Master of Mankind was pretty much the definition of unreliable. She was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to trash talk the Emperor.




I prefer Dan Abnett's Perpetual Oll Persson, as Voltstagge on Reddit explained why he thought it is awesome.


And Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind show he wants to save humanity, and ensure humanity's psychic evolution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

Besides, even if someone is opposed to the Emperor it does not mean that they're wrong - Emperor and those who share his views are not factually correct and those who oppose them are not factually wrong. Emperor maybe a kind philanthropist who knows what's best for humanity - or he maybe be a deluded tyrant who wants to take over the universe. one or the other, or maybe neither. Stories we get are from someones point of view and therefore biased - both in-universe and in real life, in a meta sense, since each writer has their own headcanon and theories that affects what and how they write. The 'Emps is from DAoT' theory comes from the late Alan Bligh (mayherestinpeace), while other writes have different opinions, none of which are any more correct than any other writers.

If every nugget of information from every story is to be taken at face value, as factually correct, then the universe is a mess of contradictions - that it has backflipping terminators and that land raiders can transform into razorbacks.

And the shaman origin is from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, in case you forgot.

In what way is Perpetual Oll awesome??