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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





North Carolina

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.




The Imperial Army was a big time user of the Rhino and Predator. The ridiculous fluff answer is that the Mechanicus had a hard time building them by the 41st Millennium, so they are super duper special and entrusted to only the most trusted of Imperial Adepta (Astartes, Sororitas, Arbites, Inquisition, rich Rogue Traders). The better answer is that with Rawbutt's reforms, and restructuring of the Imperial Army's ground forces, an IFV like the Chimera (which replaced the unloved Testudo IFV) made more sense rather than a simple battle taxi (APC). The real world answer is that GW wanted to sell more models, and segregated the Marines and Guard in terms of vehicles (with the exception of the Space Wolves limited use of the Leman Russ Exterminator) to do that very thing.


The canon fluff regarding the status of the Rhino makes no damned sense. The Rhino was originally a comparitively simple security and exploration vehicle for hard scrabble colony worlds. Supposedly, any planet with half-way decent industry and access to the STC blueprints could build them. The Chimera is a more expensive and complex vehicle in comparison, in addition to being more capable in combat. The only real advantages of a Rhino over a Chimera are fairly minor and situational. It's use of an adaptive thermic combustion reactor (allowing it to operate in a vaccuum and other extreme environments if necessarily), slightly better speed/mobility, better materials in it's construction on average (but it can still be built out of most metals, like the Leman Russ), and it's superior redunancies in case of damage. It's also a simple vehicle to maintain (so easy, a Guardsman could do it!) That's pretty much it.

The truth is that certain Guard regiments and PDFs should have access to the Rhino. PDFs becuase it's cheap and simple to upkeep. And certain Guard units that could benefit from the Rhino's advantages (regiments that operate as highly mobile forces or extreme environments). So, I agree that it would be nice to see it as a choice in a future Guard book. But don't count on it. GW/FW doesn't see fit to add more stuff to the Guard's TO&E. Especially stuff that even bog standard, third line militia was entrusted with during the Great Crusade, and in a supposedly new age of military reforms with the return of Gorillaman. They've doubled down on the "ALL SPHESS MUHREENZ, ALL T.EH TYME".

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 oldravenman3025 wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The bit about the ubiquity of the Rhino is something GW should pick up. Right now Marines and Sisters are the only ones who can use it, maybe Inquisition but they don't have any sort of codex.

Putting it in the IG book would be an interesting add, if the points were low enough.




The Imperial Army was a big time user of the Rhino and Predator. The ridiculous fluff answer is that the Mechanicus had a hard time building them by the 41st Millennium, so they are super duper special and entrusted to only the most trusted of Imperial Adepta (Astartes, Sororitas, Arbites, Inquisition, rich Rogue Traders). The better answer is that with Rawbutt's reforms, and restructuring of the Imperial Army's ground forces, an IFV like the Chimera (which replaced the unloved Testudo IFV) made more sense rather than a simple battle taxi (APC). The real world answer is that GW wanted to sell more models, and segregated the Marines and Guard in terms of vehicles (with the exception of the Space Wolves limited use of the Leman Russ Exterminator) to do that very thing.


The canon fluff regarding the status of the Rhino makes no damned sense. The Rhino was originally a comparitively simple security and exploration vehicle for hard scrabble colony worlds. Supposedly, any planet with half-way decent industry and access to the STC blueprints could build them. The Chimera is a more expensive and complex vehicle in comparison, in addition to being more capable in combat. The only real advantages of a Rhino over a Chimera are fairly minor and situational. It's use of an adaptive thermic combustion reactor (allowing it to operate in a vaccuum and other extreme environments if necessarily), slightly better speed/mobility, better materials in it's construction on average (but it can still be built out of most metals, like the Leman Russ), and it's superior redunancies in case of damage. It's also a simple vehicle to maintain (so easy, a Guardsman could do it!) That's pretty much it.

The truth is that certain Guard regiments and PDFs should have access to the Rhino. PDFs becuase it's cheap and simple to upkeep. And certain Guard units that could benefit from the Rhino's advantages (regiments that operate as highly mobile forces or extreme environments). So, I agree that it would be nice to see it as a choice in a future Guard book. But don't count on it. GW/FW doesn't see fit to add more stuff to the Guard's TO&E. Especially stuff that even bog standard, third line militia was entrusted with during the Great Crusade, and in a supposedly new age of military reforms with the return of Gorillaman. They've doubled down on the "ALL SPHESS MUHREENZ, ALL T.EH TYME".


Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/10 01:55:25


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.


And the lore can be (and has been) changed when they need it to, to sell more models.
   
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 Kcalehc wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Rhino's are rare now because the Mechanicum safeguard the hard copy STC for building it, it could still be ubiquitous, if they weren't hogs. what GW want is irrelevant to the lore, the lore is the lore.


And the lore can be (and has been) changed when they need it to, to sell more models.


Yeah but they are always going to change the lore to sell more models.
   
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Rhinos are easy to maintain and deploy, plus a number of other vehicles are based on the chassis making the vehicle fleet easier to maintain. I think the older stats for the Rhino (like Epic and 2nd Ed.) had the Rhino as faster than a Chimera too.

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 Wyzilla wrote:
Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article

That bullet speed makes it on the level of modern railguns... if the Bolt projectiles would be that fast as claimed in that novel they could pluck any flier out of the air with ease. Why would SM need Anti-Air if that was the case? If Bolters can penetrate 8" plasteel, then they can punch through Leman Russ and Chimera from the front because they have < 200mm in the front (FW Tank Data sheets). And i have not seen mentions of novels where the author is powerfantasizing that much ... It simply doesn't add up - which is why i'm ignoring "facts" of some author who very likely has miniscule knowledge of weaponry and spends 0 efford into considering if that makes any sense in univers and simply tosses this stuff out there to make something appear more awesome.

Not to mention the bullet design known from bolt rounds would very unlikely be stable at all (short and stubby) at those speeds. If it would be as fast as claimed it would be also pretty pointless to use explosives, because a projectile penetrating with so much kinetic energy would already be like an explosive on its own...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/10 21:57:21



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 Keep wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article

That bullet speed makes it on the level of modern railguns... if the Bolt projectiles would be that fast as claimed in that novel they could pluck any flier out of the air with ease. Why would SM need Anti-Air if that was the case? If Bolters can penetrate 8" plasteel, then they can punch through Leman Russ and Chimera from the front because they have < 200mm in the front. And i have not seen mentions of novels where the author is powerfantasizing that much ... It simply doesn't add up - which is why i'm ignoring "facts" of some author who very likely has miniscule knowledge of weaponry and spends 0 efford into considering if that makes any sense in univers and simply tosses this stuff out there to make something appear more awesome.

Not to mention the bullet design known from bolt rounds would very unlikely be stable at all (short and stubby) at those speeds. If it would be as fast as claimed it would be also pretty pointless to use explosives, because a projectile penetrating with so much kinetic energy would already be like an explosive on its own...


Well duh? It's quite obvious that the "armor thickness" values in the Forge World books and prior magazines are complete bs considering they don't line up with literally any of the novels. Leman Russes don't just have 200mm of armor, or else they wouldn't be able to survive multi meltas pumping out literal gigajoules of energy or survive getting shot by battle cannons imparting hundreds of megajoules of energy with connecting shots sending Leman Russes scooting meters across the ground without scoring penetration. They're ludicrously durable and most importantly, like all Imperial vehicles, not standardized. There is no such thing as a default Leman Russ as each world that produces them makes them to their own parameters, as we know that Leman Russes can be made out of really nonsensical stuff. It's also part of the reason they the Leman Russ can be run by dumping just about anything into the fuel tank.

Likewise this goes for Rhinos too. There is no such thing as a standard Rhino. While ones made by the same Forge World might start out the same, after service (especially in a Chapter) they will be modified by Tech Priests, their psychic presence in the warp will change, and they might get rebuilt from being scrapped half a dozen times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/10 21:59:38


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 Corennus wrote:
eg Space Marines are the ultimate warriors of the galaxy and the Emperor's personally created finest warriors..........oh no they aren't we've got the all new and improved Primaris Marines created by a mere Magos.....


we've known for some time the space marines AREN'T the best of what the emperor could do, given the existance of custodes and primarchs

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 Wyzilla wrote:
Well duh? It's quite obvious that the "armor thickness" values in the Forge World books and prior magazines are complete bs [...]

You happily quoted inferno as source for wraithbone vs. plasteel. The Origin of 200mm for leman russ is just as old as the conversion rates you told us for wraithbone. Forgeworld just made differential values for turret hull and superstructure off of that.
Know what is also from Inferno?

Lascannon effective range 2km. Plasmacannon 1.5km ... Boltround - way above 2.5km apparently !?

 Wyzilla wrote:
[...]considering they don't line up with literally any of the novels. Leman Russes don't just have 200mm of armor, or else they wouldn't be able to survive multi meltas pumping out literal gigajoules of energy or survive getting shot by battle cannons imparting hundreds of megajoules of energy with connecting shots sending Leman Russes scooting meters across the ground without scoring penetration.

Has it crossed your mind that inconsistency may be because the novels that send leman russ "meters across the field" when receiving a battle canon round are just bs ? If the 62ton leman russ would do that, not only would the crew be dead from blunt trauma (its like a car crash to them... without airbags), but also would the leman russ shooting that round be send "scooting meters across the ground" when shooting it... Which means when it is facing it's turrets sideways it is actually rather likely to topple over, because the tracks provide considerable friction on a 62ton vehicle. And all that with just a 120mm projectile Tanks beeing shoved meters across the ground by weapon impact is some anime level supersaiyan nonsense.
Melters may jave a gabillion of jules of energy... but for it to vaporize a hole through 200mm "supersteel" with it's high heat conductivity, or worse, ceramic materials, can take megabajillion jules of energy. It takes insane amount of energy to vaporize something.

Now back to our "totally reasonable" Boltgun that can penetrate 200mm of plasteel:
Land raider armor is 3.75" thick (95mm) and this is equivalent to 12" (300mm) of plasteel (from index astartes or inferno if memory serves right). Makes a conversion rate of 3.14. This would make the Predator vulnerable to Bolter fire from the front as well, because it has between 65 and 55mm "SM armor" which is between 173 and 204mm plasteel according to that conversion.
Not only that... Bolters could then also shoot through Power Armour like butter (because SM armor certainly isn't better armored than a Predator from the front) - which makes me wonder why during the Heresy Power Armour still offered adequate protection against Boltrounds that where not specifically designed to krak power armor.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's also part of the reason they the Leman Russ can be run by dumping just about anything into the fuel tank.

The reason it can burn almost anything burnable in liquid form is that it's a multi-fuel engine, which exist since years IRL. It even says so on the inferno page... "multi-fuel engine". Fancy astartes have thermic reactors in their Rhons, which is just a fancy/dated name for combustion engine.


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 Formosa wrote:
Reliability and adaptability is the mainstay of the rhino, it does exactly what it’s meant to do and that is deliver troops to where they are needed, the main firepower of marines is in there infantry (tabletop doesn’t show this well).

Also when you consider the original chassis was designed as a standard template to be adapted to anything from a farm vehicle to a tank, it’s pretty impressive.


Very much this. The rhino is a direct STC production - the blueprints for the tank came out of an STC machine. This differs from other imperial tech like chimeras, which are designed by the admech and composed of components from STC's and recovered knowledge. The blueprint was explicitly for SPACE! colonists to have something to support their SPACE! exploration and colony building. In space.

As a tracked exploration/defense/multi-role vehicle that can be adapted on the fly, it also would have supported space suits and been sealed, so as to traverse hostile alien environments. As such it will be compatible with powered armour - providing recahging, interface with cameras, gun turrets etc. Unlike a machine like the Chimera- which is designed by magi to perform the function of shuttling fleshy meatbags around, the rhino is OG tech from the dark ages.

Because it is 'understood' tech, in that the blueprints are there in full, and is STC, it can be constructed by people with average technical knowledge. This means that a chapter forge can churn them out without forgeworld assistance, aiding Space Marine autonomy. A battle-company can then produce most of the gear they need to support them on the ground- rhinos and variant tanks and all they need petition the mechanicus for are ships and delivery mechanisms like drop ships.

The stand rhino's front armour being lower than the chimera (based on armour values from 3rd-7th ed) shows a difference in intended use. Standard rhinos are armoured lightly on three facings, protecting against attacks to the front and side- implying their use is to push into the enemy lines where they will be surrounded. They are not designed nto withstand heavy fire- thats whats landraiders are for. Instead they are impervious to small arms fire up to bolter calibre, reflecting the role of the space marine squads within as infantry killers.

The Rhino variants that are designed to fight as the Chimera does- as part of a battle line, facing the enemy lines, are heavily armoured at the front. The predator tank is a good example of this, a fire support platform to support the Astartes. Still, the Predator retains the side armour, reflecting the fact that Marine tactics are more fluid and aggressive than the standoff tactics of the guard.


   
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It's worth noting that the Adeptus Arbites use both rhino and chimera variants, (the repressor started out as an arbites vehicle, with a water cannon instead of a flamethrower) so scarcity seems unlikely. The factions that use rhinos instead of chimera have access to both but opt to use the rhino.

In the movie Pentagon Wars it gives a run-down on how requirement creep turned the Bradley into an IFV when it was originally just supposed to be a troop transport, and how every bell and whistle they tacked on turned it into a lesser and lesser effective troop transport. Maybe that's all there is to it? The chimera can get in close, fire, and protect guardsman actively, and it provides cover even after it gets wrecked. Power armored troops don't need that. They need their transport to drop them off, step back, and be in good enough condition to pick them up and run them to the next hot spot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.


This is actually addressed in fluff the '1000 battle brothers' figure is strictly accounting for the ten squads of ten brothers in each of the ten companies. This notably includes the scouts, but does not include the chaplains, librarians, tech marines, captains and their retinues (lieutenants, ancients, dreadnoughts...)

Rhinos, razorbacks, landspeeders and bikes belong to their respective companies, but they're piloted by techmarines from the armoury, bigger badder vehicles like the vindicator or storm raven belong to the armoury and are dolled out as the mission requires it.

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 Captain Joystick wrote:
It's worth noting that the Adeptus Arbites use both rhino and chimera variants, (the repressor started out as an arbites vehicle, with a water cannon instead of a flamethrower) so scarcity seems unlikely. The factions that use rhinos instead of chimera have access to both but opt to use the rhino.

In the movie Pentagon Wars it gives a run-down on how requirement creep turned the Bradley into an IFV when it was originally just supposed to be a troop transport, and how every bell and whistle they tacked on turned it into a lesser and lesser effective troop transport. Maybe that's all there is to it? The chimera can get in close, fire, and protect guardsman actively, and it provides cover even after it gets wrecked. Power armored troops don't need that. They need their transport to drop them off, step back, and be in good enough condition to pick them up and run them to the next hot spot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.


This is actually addressed in fluff the '1000 battle brothers' figure is strictly accounting for the ten squads of ten brothers in each of the ten companies. This notably includes the scouts, but does not include the chaplains, librarians, tech marines, captains and their retinues (lieutenants, ancients, dreadnoughts...)

Rhinos, razorbacks, landspeeders and bikes belong to their respective companies, but they're piloted by techmarines from the armoury, bigger badder vehicles like the vindicator or storm raven belong to the armoury and are dolled out as the mission requires it.



actually the 6th or 7th edition marine codex said that the scout company isn't actually limited via the codex astartes eaither and some chapters have over sized 10th companies

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BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 08:45:50


 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Drivers - Who drives the Rhino has always been a tricky question (along with where does he fit). With only 1000 marines can you spare 10% of these superhumans to serve as bus drivers? My head canon is failed aspirants and crippled marines drive it (which is why you sometimes see the driver called a Brother in fiction or poking out of a hatch) but they are not full Battle Brothers and don't count towards the 1000. They're generally wired in but are not lobotomized like servitors. Some might be mostly human, others little more than a brain and spine in a bottle. Other Rhinos might be driven by serfs or ordinary brothers but the ones that go into battle will have near-Marine drivers.

This is my headcanon as well. I basically figure that all the severely injured marines can be stuck inside almost all of the vehicles on a permanent basis similar to Dreadnoughts. Get blown up and lose all four limbs but still alive, no problem! Depending on the situation the chapter can attempt to regrow them, throw on four cyberlimbs, stick you in a dreadnought, or put you as a driver/pilot of a vehicle or use you as a brain in a jar trainer for aspirants to teach them things when they are not in the field (like a live in drill sergeant/spy/motivational speaker 24/7). I don't think the marines would be wasteful of any resource they are able to keep, and it is a nice way for them to get around that 1000 person cap, so they don't really count...

As for why the Rhino...the purpose of the vehicle is to get troops from point A to point B quickly, not to fight from. They are used when other forms of transport won't work, so it has to cross some really rough terrain. The Rhino is also easily repairable, tough enough to push through artillery, but not dedicated AT weapons to make sure the drivers/commanders don't try to play mini-tank, and can carry all sorts of things, not just troops. I think of it like the technicals in the MENA or the Ford Rangers of the ANA...really good for fast motorized ops, turns infantry into dragoons (ride into battle, fight dismounted), but they are NOT IFVs of AFVs...

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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.


Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population on the other hand a few death worlds are able to supply a fair number of guard regiments, catcha I'm looking at you,. so maybe not.

It's also likely that the Space Wolves have a number of alied worlds with interlocking commitments and responsabilities dating back to the great crusade. I tend to suspect most first founding chapters do, and the real big differance between the ultramarines and everything is formalization.

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Idk why but I remember something about Catachan having about 10 million people on it living in the human enclaves. With guard regiments numbering a kinda silly number that might be as low as a 1000, its not hard to see how even a world like Catachan can raise a few dozen regiments. But the manpower requirements to crew such a large fleet would be much higher. If say the SW have 50 capital ships (as their fleet is the size of multiple chapters and each chapter has at least 10 capitals, 1 per company) that would require about 10.000 crew each to pull out a random number (which seems low given that plenty of Imperial ships have manual reload crews) couple that to a few times that number in escorts and you're looking at crew requirements possibly in the millions. While the SW might draw this from other worlds, I don't think I have ever seen mention of SW serfs in the fluff that aren't Fenrisian.

As for the 1000 number, its a stupid number and GW should really just overhaul it with an extra 0 taped on. Because now you have to headcannon a 1000 plus the guys crewing vehicles/the guys crewing chapter warships/the guys in the fortress monastries on each planet they own etc. You would roughly need another 1000 just to be able to fulfill all the off screen tasks.

To go back to the SW fleet and the 1000~ number. We know the SW might number about 2400~ if at max for the 12 companies. But then you realize that they have a story of a SW escort on patrol being boarded by Red Corsairs with a squad of SW on board. Being generous and say the squad was 5 dudes, it still means they might have over at least 500 marines on space ships at all times (50 capital ships plus at least 1 escort per capital, with 5 being a terribly low amount on a capital ship). That's at least a fifth of their combat strength sucked up on non vital SM duties.

The 1000 limit is one of those things that would have required 5 minutes of thought to tape a 0 to when it comes to the fluff to make some more sense, which shows how silly GW sometimes gets.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 10:37:11


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well SM warships HAVE been noted as having lower numbers of physical crew then imperial navy, relying heavily on servitors. but yeah it's a bit odd for sure

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Has weight-bearing come up?

As noted, the Rh1n0 base model was intended to be capable of everything, including being a tractor.

Marines in power armour (according to some books, anyway) can weigh around a ton. So, you need a transport vehicle that can transport 11 tons of Space Marine rapidly over all-terrain.

I'm not sure a Chimera would be able to do that.

   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.


Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.


6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.


Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.


6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.


If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

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BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.


Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.


6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.


If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

To be honest any kind of sustainability is questionable after the mess of Siege of Fenris. I don't think anyone really thought about that in the writing department.

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pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the space wolf fleet is stupid big for a modern day chapter but is hardly GC sized.

That said I agree it's rediculas. I can't see how they could maintain it. I mean I could see MAYBE the Ultramarines managing that size of a fleet because they have all of Ultramar to draw from but...


The Fenris system apparently has three or four worlds in it besides Fenris - they seem to be reasonably modern, by Imperial standards, so I'd think that's where the fleet support crews come from.


Maybe but those worlds are all death worlds so can't have a super high population.


6 and a half billion on Midgardia, according to Lexicanum’s source.


If Midgaria was the real secret to the space wolves being able to maintain themselves they're in for a rough future given the world was destroyed

To be honest any kind of sustainability is questionable after the mess of Siege of Fenris. I don't think anyone really thought about that in the writing department.


I bet they did. *eyes Gulliman and the Primaris Marines* seems conveniant no?

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People have pointed out how cheap and cheerful the rhino is, but i don't think that fits in with the rest of the marine aesthetic, they use bolters which require regular maintenance etc.
I don't buy the argument that the marines are the firepower either, what happens when there rushing forward into the attack? etc. there massively under-manned as is, going by what i have
read about special forces they use overwhelming and accurate firepower to win, more firepower would never be turned down.
I think the idea that they are reliable and adaptable has legs but that's what the marines will be using when there enemy turns anything equal to or stronger then a H.bolter at them!
going by G.W. logic there are about 10 per company. (sic. I'm a bit out of date on background fluff) one getting knocked out by a mine or hit at long range could split or slow there attack
massively that is not good for what is essentially 150 ish men. It however appears there stuck with it for reasons others have pointed out.

I have always had the idea (personal fluff warning) that the marines don't use 10 rhinos per company but 100.
That way in an attack they can combat squad and still have a 1 in 5 chance of them shooting a different rhino (might explain how 10 marines and there equipment fit, they don't!)
Its ablative armour at its finest.
what do the other rhinos do?
bring up ammunition and extra gear (different weapons for when the marines mission or the terrain requires a different gun flamer for bunker assault plasma for long range anti armour)
Extra battle taxis if there's gets hit. Ambulances, there extremely valuable you wouldn't want them lying on the field and you might not be able to get flyers close to the front.
Q ships or fire ships pack 'em full of explosives or even smoke producing equipment. loads of reasons really you can prob. come up with your own.
I have always wondered why the OLD predator had av 13 but used the same piece as the rhino, maybe a "TRUE" rhino, the one used by the marines, actually has that extra armour.
   
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Honestly the Chimera is more Akin to a Razorback in function. A Light fighting vehicle able to support infantry, and transport infantry into combat. (IFV)

The rhino is an honest to god APC - Armored Personnel Carrier. It carries people from A-B quickly on the ground when an aerial pickup is unfeasible. Any weaponry on it is secondary.

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I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

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 ArbitorIan wrote:
Has weight-bearing come up?

As noted, the Rh1n0 base model was intended to be capable of everything, including being a tractor.

Marines in power armour (according to some books, anyway) can weigh around a ton. So, you need a transport vehicle that can transport 11 tons of Space Marine rapidly over all-terrain.

I'm not sure a Chimera would be able to do that.


If I remember right the same forgeworld stuff that mentioned armour thickness mentioned the rhino has a steeper climbing angle than the chimera as well, which I guess would suggest it has more torque; which I guess makes sense given its four engines. I don't remember the details exactly at the moment, so this is just off the top of my head.
   
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 KTG17 wrote:
I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

It really shouldnt. A chimera goes againts all the spacemarine design cues and their ethos.

You fight from within a chimera, using its lasgun points and multilaser to attack the foe, then leave the tank to enter buildings or other ground impassable to the chimera(under covering fire from the multilaser).
A rhino brings you up to the enemy so you can dismount and bolter them to death, then race across their cooling corpses to assault your objective.

A spacemarine wants to be outside his transport, facing his foes. He only uses a transport to get him closer, or to make him temporarily immune to sniper fire.
A guardsman wants to be behind armour plate, plugging away with a reactor fed lasgun and he would stay there all battle unless the sergeant told him otherwise.

A rhino looks futuristic and brutal and is surrounded by access points.
A chimera looks archaic and has one access point.

I agree the marines would be more effective if chapters were 100,000 strong and they fought using heavily armed transports like chimeras and batteries of basilisks but then they would be Iron Warriors, and that's already a thing.
   
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 =Angel= wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
I think while the Rhino made sense when Space Marines had legions, I think they are ridiculous in more modern times. I am fine with the Razorback, but the Rhino itself seems really more like it should be an Imperial Guard transport.

It really shouldnt. A chimera goes againts all the spacemarine design cues and their ethos.

You fight from within a chimera, using its lasgun points and multilaser to attack the foe, then leave the tank to enter buildings or other ground impassable to the chimera(under covering fire from the multilaser).
A rhino brings you up to the enemy so you can dismount and bolter them to death, then race across their cooling corpses to assault your objective.

A spacemarine wants to be outside his transport, facing his foes. He only uses a transport to get him closer, or to make him temporarily immune to sniper fire.
A guardsman wants to be behind armour plate, plugging away with a reactor fed lasgun and he would stay there all battle unless the sergeant told him otherwise.

A rhino looks futuristic and brutal and is surrounded by access points.
A chimera looks archaic and has one access point.

I agree the marines would be more effective if chapters were 100,000 strong and they fought using heavily armed transports like chimeras and batteries of basilisks but then they would be Iron Warriors, and that's already a thing.


I think this is more GW not knowing much about the military.
From what i have read (though anyone with any experience please correct me) you dont want to fight in an IFV. You look like a tank, you shoot almost like a tank but you have nowhere near the armour and when they shoot you there going to treat you like a tank.
The chimera was just a BMP design, they had ports so you could fire out but it was ridiculously inaccurate (i read once there idea was to dismount fire a mag. full auto then just charge, so perfect for guard)
It was never meant for fighting in.
The western approach is much more deploy the troops and support them, that could work with both probably the marines even more providing accurate fire whilst they keep advancing.
   
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The BMP and vehicles similar to it are armed enough to support an infantry advance, but are not intended to "attack" armour, or heavily defended installations. Just some MG's and autocannons to put some enemy heads down, tackle some bunkers and generally assist in a light infantry action. Many have defensive anti-tank weapons which can be used in a pinch, but they're not going out and hunting down enemy armour. It's more of a "oh gak, a tank appeared!" kind of thing.

A BMP approaching might not be a threat to a tank, but to an entrenched infantry unit, or a light reconnaissance vehicle, a couple of sandbag bunkers, etc....the BMP is a threat.

Something like a Rhino is more about moving faster than walking, and carrying extra ammo, water, and food with you in the process...and if it stops some small arms fire or shrapnel? Bonus. Two entirely different concepts. Hence why the Rhino does precisely what it does. Does it have a place on the 40K tabletop? Not terribly, no. It would have realistically dropped its marines off half a kilometer behind the engagement, but it's a cool model kit and is oddly survivable in the game.

 
   
 
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