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 Strg Alt wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Midna wrote:
Tau is the obvious choice for the new face of GW.

*Ducks from incoming artillery fire*

Tau have no place in 40K. Though they might have their uses in another setting. Shrink ´em and stick ´em into mushrooms. Then they can ally with the smurfs and take the fight to Gargamel.

They would have made a great way for us to get an army made of a wide array of smaller alien races instead of the Gundams.

Idk if that would have been successful. They have today the Kroot and the Vespids. Both have imo no redeeeming aesthetic value as minis. Tau are supposed to be a race with highly advanced tech but the Eldar already fill that spot. And what about the Dark Eldar? Well, some GW designer watched too often those Hellraiser movies and thought it would be a good idea to have sadists on the battlefield. Another explanation could be that the reasoning was that the SM faction can get away with numerous codices so it wouldn´t be too bad, if the Eldar got an additional book.

Kroot are pretty cool in the setting, but on the table the models are a bit old and dated (leading to them not really reflecting the faction as a whole). Vespid are (now Finecast I think) old models that desperately need an update and have always suffered for being overcharged for their short range anti-power armour guns in an army that gives out long range weaponry like candy on Halloween.

There isn't a strong, simple aesthetic to replace them. Couple that with basically being identified as super-human (i.e. the boyish ideals most of their consumer base share at a young age) and there isn't an other option.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Midna wrote:
Tau is the obvious choice for the new face of GW.

*Ducks from incoming artillery fire*

Tau have no place in 40K. Though they might have their uses in another setting. Shrink ´em and stick ´em into mushrooms. Then they can ally with the smurfs and take the fight to Gargamel.

They would have made a great way for us to get an army made of a wide array of smaller alien races instead of the Gundams.

Idk if that would have been successful. They have today the Kroot and the Vespids. Both have imo no redeeeming aesthetic value as minis. Tau are supposed to be a race with highly advanced tech but the Eldar already fill that spot. And what about the Dark Eldar? Well, some GW designer watched too often those Hellraiser movies and thought it would be a good idea to have sadists on the battlefield. Another explanation could be that the reasoning was that the SM faction can get away with numerous codices so it wouldn´t be too bad, if the Eldar got an additional book.

Kroot are pretty cool in the setting, but on the table the models are a bit old and dated (leading to them not really reflecting the faction as a whole). Vespid are (now Finecast I think) old models that desperately need an update and have always suffered for being overcharged for their short range anti-power armour guns in an army that gives out long range weaponry like candy on Halloween.

Its a real shame with the Kroot, see when Tau Empire was launched the Kroot and The Tau had a subtle but nice dynamic that toyed with expectations. Tau seemed to be the more sophisticated and advanced both culturally and technologically, but in many ways the Kroot are ahead of them, what with their ability to build giant fully Warp capable ships and having a more cosmopolitan culture.

For example, the agreement between the two is seen by the Tau as Kroot swearing vassaldom to their mighty empire, while the Kroot see it as a mercenary contract between their homeworlders and some nobodies who happen to live near their ancestral homelands. Or, how Tau use their more limited technology for everything, while the Kroot use theirs sparingly and the high-end stuff only when they must, like in their ships.

In general the Tau are more excessive and think that they can make the world adapt and become like them, while the Kroot are more sparing and just adapt themselves to an ever changing world. Nothing mindblowing, but it was nice.

And now it's just "Look SO cool mecha suits! You buy yes?" bleh.

Custodians or Grey Knights are correct answer. Ultimate lojality. Custodians are new on table so they are new face of 40K. They just need more toys.

SM are instantly recognisable and synonymous with WH40K. The Ultramarines are the chapter that adheres most closely to the Codex Astartes and they have an aesthetic that harks back to the Imperial Fists on the cover of the 1st edition RT rulebook. That's not to say SM are better than other factions, they're just most iconic for WH40K.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you believe that the only difference between various marine chapter is a paint job, you have either ignored or not read most of BL, Forgeworlds various IA books or anything heresy related.

Actually thanks to Cawl and the spread of Embiggened marines who all have there chapter defects fixed we are heading to a paint job being the only difference.

SeanDrake wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you believe that the only difference between various marine chapter is a paint job, you have either ignored or not read most of BL, Forgeworlds various IA books or anything heresy related.

Actually thanks to Cawl and the spread of Embiggened marines who all have there chapter defects fixed we are heading to a paint job being the only difference.

There is significantly much more variety with the Imperial guard regiments than the Astartes - how many Codexes do they have?

A few Marines have been flanderised beyond recognition unfortunately - most of the difference between Chapters is cultural rather than equipment.

Cultural differences can be the source of huge differences.

SeanDrake wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you believe that the only difference between various marine chapter is a paint job, you have either ignored or not read most of BL, Forgeworlds various IA books or anything heresy related.

Actually thanks to Cawl and the spread of Embiggened marines who all have there chapter defects fixed we are heading to a paint job being the only difference.

That won't last

Karol wrote:
Cultural differences can be the source of huge differences.

yes culutrally - apart form the Super special Flanderised units most Marine Chapters in the field use the same equipment and weapons.

Some First Founding or similar have a few unusual or speclaist units but does not need to be represented by the "Sheep" Chapter having Sheepy Sheep Sheep guns rising giant Sheep with Sheep necklaces and Sheep swords....

 Mr Morden wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you believe that the only difference between various marine chapter is a paint job, you have either ignored or not read most of BL, Forgeworlds various IA books or anything heresy related.

Actually thanks to Cawl and the spread of Embiggened marines who all have there chapter defects fixed we are heading to a paint job being the only difference.

There is significantly much more variety with the Imperial guard regiments than the Astartes - how many Codexes do they have?

A few Marines have been flanderised beyond recognition unfortunately - most of the difference between Chapters is cultural rather than equipment.

we have the sheer varity of Marines because they sell. back in the old days we used to have 5 or so seperate types of IG? you can BET had those sold like hotcakes we'd have codex catachans (we had that back in third come to think of it) codex steel legion etc.

Wait... "and they don’t have 40 years of recanted fluff to contend with."... dude! Knights are just as old as marines in the lore! It's one of the reasons why i support them!

 Mr Morden wrote:

Karol wrote:
Cultural differences can be the source of huge differences.

yes culutrally - apart form the Super special Flanderised units most Marine Chapters in the field use the same equipment and weapons.

Some First Founding or similar have a few unusual or speclaist units but does not need to be represented by the "Sheep" Chapter having Sheepy Sheep Sheep guns rising giant Sheep with Sheep necklaces and Sheep swords....

The thing is that each chapters own culture, means they use and fight and use the weapons in a different way. BA and Flesh "we are totaly not canibals" Tearers are all armed the same way, but they fight in a very different way. Even the same chapter can fight in a different way depending, if it is pre or post some big cultur shift for it.

Karol wrote:
The thing is that each chapters own culture, means they use and fight and use the weapons in a different way. BA and Flesh "we are totaly not canibals" Tearers are all armed the same way, but they fight in a very different way. Even the same chapter can fight in a different way depending, if it is pre or post some big cultur shift for it.

I'm sure that makes them more different than the Imperial Guard regiment from a medieval world that recruit only the bravest, most valorous sons and daughters of the nobility and arm them with weird retrofuturist gun-relics, swords and fight on horses most of the time is different from the regiment that forcefully enlist the worst criminals from some hive-world and have them get all their wargear by looting the battlefield.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol wrote:
The thing is that each chapters own culture, means they use and fight and use the weapons in a different way. BA and Flesh "we are totaly not canibals" Tearers are all armed the same way, but they fight in a very different way. Even the same chapter can fight in a different way depending, if it is pre or post some big cultur shift for it.

I'm sure that makes them more different than the Imperial Guard regiment from a medieval world that recruit only the bravest, most valorous sons and daughters of the nobility and arm them with weird retrofuturist gun-relics, swords and fight on horses most of the time is different from the regiment that forcefully enlist the worst criminals from some hive-world and have them get all their wargear by looting the battlefield.

Isn't an IG life expecatancing something like seconds durning real conflicts? So it wouldn't matter what the IG dudes are, heck they may even not be dudes. It just wouldn't matter. Marines on the other hand live for 2-3 human life spans, or at least some of do.

And durning off time all soldiers act the same way. They did the same stuff durning the Ramzes the Second and they do same stuff in Syria right now.

Reemule wrote:
Space Marines should be retired from the Title characters for 40K.

My quick response is: No. My follow on response is: "Are you joking? Because if so, you got me!" I did actually laugh a little at this, I won't lie. And that's not me ridiculing you, I thought this was a gag post. But let's be honest, making Imperial Knights the 'Poster Boys' of 40k and shoving aside Marines would be like a restaurant known for its pancakes trying to specialize in burgers. Who would do that, right? Hahahahaha... (I still love you, IHOP. You're no Huddle House, but you work fine when I'm taking someone decent out for breakfast and I'm not hung over).

But let me illustrate: Show a picture of a Space Marine and an Imperial Knight to a non-40k player. He'll say "That's one of those Space Marine guys from Dawn of War, and that's a weird-looking Transformer that turns into a Faberge egg." And don't get me wrong, a Transformer that turns into a Faberge egg would get me throwing money at it. As would one that turns into a Keurig, as long as it actually works (in relative terms to the average Keurig, at least). But that's not important.

Reemule wrote:
Knights should replace them as the face of 40K. Better rules, better fluff, and they don’t have 40 years of recanted fluff to contend with.

A bit of an exaggeration, and a bit of personal preference here. Not really a solid argument, but I grant you your personal tastes. You're entitled to that! But as far as the years of recanted fluff? Well, Knights haven't been important enough to warrant that. They were actually a thing in normal 40k games... when? 2014? Before that, they had 'rules'- but they looked like the Old Necrons in bright colors struggling to pass a turd. Or they looked like weird stilt-men in bright colors (unknown if they were attempting to pass a turd).

Reemule wrote:
Also at this point there hasn’t been a time where ½ of them joined the ruinous powers. Not to mention they don’t get corrupted by 30 minutes in a Dagobah cave. It takes months of hard work, and even then it’s not 100% of the time reliable to corrupt them.

If this is the argument, the Ruinous Powers have their share of knights and from what I can tell- "You get two big honkin' miniguns" seems to be all it takes for the average player to start slapping tentacles, spikes, boogers, and chicken feathers onto a knight model. Otherwise, there seems to be a 50/50 split with the big 'bots.

Reemule wrote:
It will make people file into stuff like adepticus titanicus easier. Sells more games. Who doesn’t love giant human controlled robots? RObotech and Battletech have proven this.

You know what would make Adeptimus Titticups sell? NOT letting the dude at Forge World manage that. At this rate, any expansions will probably be out... oh, by the time we manage to build functional giant mechs and use them to fight in the Space Force and liberate the oil-er, 'civilian aliens' from Doritobutt 5 (It's my planet, I'll name it whatever I want.)


I love the idea of giant mechs. I want more RPG's and tabletop games with giant mechs. As far as 40k goes, it's not a 'giant mech' game to me. It's a bunch of hams in power armor yelling at each other and swinging chainsaws, tanks that look like bad ideas from WW2, and crab ladies with one boob hanging out. Don't get me wrong, the Knights are cool little part of it, and they really are fun to use- but...

...think about this in terms of economics, my friend:

I'd wager damned near 75% of this board, especially those lads from the UK- before they sipped their first tea or cup of coffee, when they were kids... they had a handful of Space Marines. A lot of us did. We had NO IDEA what we were doing, we slapped some paint on them thicker than the bedsheets, used them like army men, and maybe threw dice on the table with our friend and said "I got five, you got three, my dude killed your dude!" Not my personal experience, but a Brit told me that and I laughed. Then I threw his tea in the harbor.

But any mook can go get a handful of Marines now and play Kill-Team. It strikes up an interest. He then expands out to 40k. He decides this thing he can make his Space Marines 'kinda do ok' is the specialty for another army and he picks that up. He sees the Knight and he things 'that's pretty baller' and he gets that. Then more. Then, after a divorce and a foreclosure and a repossessed car- he's going to say, "You know, that knight is awesome and I like it. I'll play Adooptibus Tittycanus!" And then he plays it on a table by himself while everyone else is playing 40k, he throws the models in a box, and puts it right back on his home shelf with all the other board games you play with your confused girlfriend when the internet goes out.

It has its place, but not at the front, brother. Just my two cents.

Now give me back those two cents, I am saving for this Transformer that turns into a Faberge egg (I'm gonna paint it to look like a boobie!)

Karol wrote:
Isn't an IG life expecatancing something like seconds durning real conflicts?

No. So what they do matter. Else we wouldn't even use model for them, just some token or something .

Karol wrote:
And durning off time all soldiers act the same way. They did the same stuff durning the Ramzes the Second and they do same stuff in Syria right now.

Somewhere, I can bet you money- there's a crude painting on a pot... and on that pot, is a Roman Legionnaire holding his spear like a penis while his buddies laugh and tell lewd jokes.

War changes. We weirdos in them don't.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


It has its place, but not at the front, brother. Just my two cents.

Now give me back those two cents, I am saving for this Transformer that turns into a Faberge egg (I'm gonna paint it to look like a boobie!)

No. No cents are back you! But we owe you for this excellent post. Well thought out and reasoned!

Still like Knights better, as so should you all!.

Reemule wrote:
No. No cents are back you! But we owe you for this excellent post. Well thought out and reasoned!

Still like Knights better, as so should you all!.

And that's cool. I think it's great you dig them. I kinda dig them, too.

The thing is, on average- it's very hard for me to find it 'fun' to see some guy drop down an Imperial Knight he just bought to take on an equivalent force that another new player just bought. Is it possible? Eh, sure- the guy with a couple of handfuls of Space Marines might win... maybe? But there's no way you can say that's the 'fun game' you were expecting to play when you showed up with your Marines still smelling like super glue.

And maybe I'm a jerk, but I just think back to when I had just gotten back into the hobby, and had a very basic starter set and a few extras. Some dude is like, "Hey man, wanna play a friendly game? A 500 point game?" And I was excited, grabbing up Black Templars... and then, at the table, he plops down the Knight. All grey plastic, the barbarian. He smiled and I think he had actual holes in this teeth, and I remember "I bet a beetle could crawl out of those holes". I just... I didn't. I just packed my things and went to the bar. And it wasn't even a good bar.

I think that nearly anything can be engineered that way though.

I recall my first game back with the 2nd edition.. My tac squad and a hero. He 5 Khornate zerkers and a Hero in terminator Armor, with a Displacer field, and a Str 6 power weapon.

Not sure if you played that edition, but what I had wasn't going to take what he had.

Reality of the situation as I see if it the mismatches exist, and have existed forever. The game isn't really balanced I feel at point levels below 1500, and really seem to actually be most balanced at 2500. The idea should have been that in a demo game, its a demo game. Some people lose sight of that, or never had it.

Nah, needs to be something small. Remember that the face of the game has to be able to appeal to a wide audience as well as have a cheap option to get into the game.

GW stores can give out a free space marine or stormcast, because easy build models are dirt cheap as well as quick and easy to paint. Space marines are easy to paint and assemble, and have plenty of cheap options to start playing the game.

Knights are advanced models and expensive, so there is no easy way to get that first taste of 40k with them. You can't give away a free sample of knight titans.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol wrote:
The thing is that each chapters own culture, means they use and fight and use the weapons in a different way. BA and Flesh "we are totaly not canibals" Tearers are all armed the same way, but they fight in a very different way. Even the same chapter can fight in a different way depending, if it is pre or post some big cultur shift for it.

I'm sure that makes them more different than the Imperial Guard regiment from a medieval world that recruit only the bravest, most valorous sons and daughters of the nobility and arm them with weird retrofuturist gun-relics, swords and fight on horses most of the time is different from the regiment that forcefully enlist the worst criminals from some hive-world and have them get all their wargear by looting the battlefield.

I don't think a aristocracy would send its daughters. Just saying.

 Brother Castor wrote:
SM are instantly recognisable and synonymous with WH40K. The Ultramarines are the chapter that adheres most closely to the Codex Astartes and they have an aesthetic that harks back to the Imperial Fists on the cover of the 1st edition RT rulebook. That's not to say SM are better than other factions, they're just most iconic for WH40K.

Well Ultramarines are the best OFC.

Table wrote:

I don't think a aristocracy would send its daughters. Just saying.

Have you heard of Imperial Knights?

Reemule wrote:

Reality of the situation as I see if it the mismatches exist, and have existed forever. The game isn't really balanced I feel at point levels below 1500, and really seem to actually be most balanced at 2500. The idea should have been that in a demo game, its a demo game. Some people lose sight of that, or never had it.

People have a LOT of faith in the absolute value of points and the idea that can equalize things outside of the parameters under which they were determined.

Table wrote:
I don't think a aristocracy would send its daughters. Just saying.

Do you think people would go into ship that sails through the closest thing to hell, with the only directions coming from some weirdo with a third eye?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Do you think people would go into ship that sails through the closest thing to hell, with the only directions coming from some weirdo with a third eye?

You say this, but I watched two people get into an Uber when the driver was wearing a Michael Meyers mask.

This was not Halloween.

It was like, mid-April.

Never underestimate human stupidity and recklessness. In ten thousand years, when the aliens are doing a high school field trip on our burned out planet and dusting off our fossilized bones... they will be in awe of not what we achieved in such a short amount of time, but how the hell we survived as long as we did.

 LunarSol wrote:

Reemule wrote:

Reality of the situation as I see if it the mismatches exist, and have existed forever. The game isn't really balanced I feel at point levels below 1500, and really seem to actually be most balanced at 2500. The idea should have been that in a demo game, its a demo game. Some people lose sight of that, or never had it.

People have a LOT of faith in the absolute value of points and the idea that can equalize things outside of the parameters under which they were determined.

That is true - in certain matchups even suboptimal units can be optimal - the reverse is true with optimal units sometimes being less optimal. The idea that we should have a baseline minimum cost for abilities/stats can work though - when comparing units to units they are similar to.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Table wrote:
I don't think a aristocracy would send its daughters. Just saying.

Do you think people would go into ship that sails through the closest thing to hell, with the only directions coming from some weirdo with a third eye?

Well in the real world they did exactly that, when trying to find a sea way to India.

Have you heard of Imperial Knights?

have you heard about retcons that make no sense?

Reality of the situation as I see if it the mismatches exist, and have existed forever. The game isn't really balanced I feel at point levels below 1500, and really seem to actually be most balanced at 2500. The idea should have been that in a demo game, its a demo game. Some people lose sight of that, or never had it.

now I don't know how things were before 8th ed, but from what I have been told in the past it was possible to play 1500 or even 1000pts, there were even events played at those point brackets. So it had to be more balanced then it is now. I agree that bad match ups or bad scenarios can have a huge influence on games, but there is a limit to that. You can't say that point costs couldn't be able to balance something like the cost of a power fist on a str 4 and a str 3 model. Plus other games seem to be having point systems and achiving a way more diverse metas, both in the number of armies and different units per army played, and have some sort of point systems. Only GW games seem to struggle in that regard. I don't know why they do though.