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Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

N the plus side, we don't have to worry about Phase Out anymore!

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?

Because it actually...wow...makes Warriors good at surviving.

They're not tough. They're a 12 point T4 4+ model. You can already focus fire and charge squads, now you're just punished moreso for not doing it.

Suggest a fix then for RP. If you already think it's functional there's not much hope for you.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?

Because it actually...wow...makes Warriors good at surviving.

They're not tough. They're a 12 point T4 4+ model. You can already focus fire and charge squads, now you're just punished moreso for not doing it.

Suggest a fix then for RP. If you already think it's functional there's not much hope for you.


Well, to start, make it happen at the end of each movement phase. This allows you to double your chances, as well as move Crypteks and Ghost Arks into range of injured squads before you roll for them.

Add a 2 CP strat to immediately roll RP for a squad that gets wiped, treating them as being in range of whoever they were in range of where the last man died.

That's probably still not quite enough, but it's something that won't result in Necrons being ridiculously OP.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Reminder: That 90% is from your basic 5+.

If you have both a Cryptek and a reroll, that jumps to greater than 90% after two phases.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Heck just a cryptek +1 would mean 75% of the guys you shot will be back by the time your choppy guys get to swing.

I've seen plenty of marine "balance ideas" who were insane, but this tops them all by far.

Necron ain't that weak. FORCING focus fire is an advantage even if you never get to roll a single RP due to it making moral even less of a concern in an edition where half killing squads and letting moral take its toll is often best. It forces not only to kill them, but more often than not overkill by far because you can't trust "enough" with how bad it is if even one survive, especially if there is a arc nearby, cryptek, etc. Let alone multiple factors.

T4 with 4+ is a scout marine. Who costs 11. Scouts ain't bad.
Not game winning on thier own, but not bad.
Necron warriors cost 1 point more, and lose better deployment, but in return got a better gun (and yes, ap1 bolters MATTER when you got numbers) and if you failed to kill them to the last for any reason, you are potentiality screwed.

Is not godly, but it's plenty for basic infantry.


Ffs I'm sick of people trying to "fix" thier faction by making it even better than the top things out there that everyone already agrees needs to be tuned down.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.


So I'm sure you think Tide of Traitors is totally balanced, right? And always has been, even before the nerf?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.


So I'm sure you think Tide of Traitors is totally balanced, right? And always has been, even before the nerf?

Tide Of Traitors WAS fine actually. Heaven forbid Cultists be good for anything right?

If you had problems with Tide Of Traitors, that says a lot about your army to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Heck just a cryptek +1 would mean 75% of the guys you shot will be back by the time your choppy guys get to swing.

I've seen plenty of marine "balance ideas" who were insane, but this tops them all by far.

Necron ain't that weak. FORCING focus fire is an advantage even if you never get to roll a single RP due to it making moral even less of a concern in an edition where half killing squads and letting moral take its toll is often best. It forces not only to kill them, but more often than not overkill by far because you can't trust "enough" with how bad it is if even one survive, especially if there is a arc nearby, cryptek, etc. Let alone multiple factors.

T4 with 4+ is a scout marine. Who costs 11. Scouts ain't bad.
Not game winning on thier own, but not bad.
Necron warriors cost 1 point more, and lose better deployment, but in return got a better gun (and yes, ap1 bolters MATTER when you got numbers) and if you failed to kill them to the last for any reason, you are potentiality screwed.

Is not godly, but it's plenty for basic infantry.


Ffs I'm sick of people trying to "fix" thier faction by making it even better than the top things out there that everyone already agrees needs to be tuned down.

LOL at the morale statement, because it matters with a LD10 army.

Also you miss the point of Scouts because, if they didn't HAVE better deployment options, they'd be useless. So why would I pay an extra point for AP-1 on the Bolter and RP, which I'll likely not get?

It's as though NONE of you have played Necrons at all. Remember Reece saying they were a killer Index army?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 17:26:08


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Well, at least you're not being a hypocrite.

Let me put it this way-I kill 16/20 Warriors in the shooting phase. They are by a Cryptek, but I figure I can kill the last four in close combat.

End of shooting-they get 8 back.
End of charging-they get 4 back.

I now have to deal with, instead of four Warriors, 16 of them.

It turns from "Kill a whole squad a turn, or your efforts were partially wasted" to "Kill a whole squad a phase, or your efforts are basically entirely wasted".

And again-Shining Spears, point for point, fail to kill Warriors.
Plaguebearers, point for point and then with 300+ points of buffs, fail to kill Warriors.

Want us to do the math on other units?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






My most common opponent is a necron player actually.
And he favors warrior blobs.

They are a bitch to deal with if you are not properly prepared to take out the whole cryptek buffed, cronometron protected, ark supported ride of monochrome warriors.

And with IK running rampant, most people bring heavy AT to events, the same type that isn't good at dealing with the monochrome tide, or the arks (God I hate quantum shields)

Necrons are not top tier, but hardly the scrubs you think they are. They just struggle to compete with the insanity that is IG powered Knights and other such nonsense, and EVERYONE dose, because these are the widely accepted OVERPOWERED things.

Stop trying to match (nay, one up) the known overpowered issues and look at the normal things for comparison. Looking at the normals, necrons are pretty awesome.


(and yes, at LD10 moral STILL matters when you got squads of 20, because had you not have RP, killing 15 of two squads meant erasing both, with it its a risk they are both getting mostly back.)

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"LOL at the morale statement, because it matters with a LD10 army."
I would think Necrons would be the one army you'd count on LD to finish off. Because killing 15 of them is 25% easier than killing 20 of them.

"If you had problems with Tide Of Traitors, that says a lot about your army to be honest."
Well, if people from every book in the game had problems with it, whatever it says about his army it would then say about every army? So, what's your point?

As for Shining Spears (and others), it's not just 'fails to kill', it's 'fails to do damage faster than they revive, even in optimal situations'. That's a much bigger difference.

Should a Necron Warrior blob that has 1 guy remaining come back at nearly full strength with high reliability in a single round? Why? These aren't some amorphos organic compound, that regrows until you burn it out. It's a collection of unstoppable robots that repair themselves individually. The focus should be on models being hard to kill, not a breakpoint of "do no damage until you onephase the squad".
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




To ease up the discussion about RP I too think RP after EVERY Phase is too much but I like the idea with it being at the end of movement so you can move your buffs into position.
I dont have my codex here at hand but I think Crypteks RP Buff is 3“? I would bump it to 6“ to support the silver tide playstyle
Also a stratagem to roll for wiped units would be very helpful.
all of this plus 3+ on the warriors (-1point cost) and T5 on Immortals and I would be ok with this.

NO still one thing
change the text passage 1“ from the last standing model to within 3“ or something similar. Right now its a paradox, RP is the best with one model left and (for 20warrior squad) 19RP to go but you could NEVER put them within 1“ of the last remaining model.
Also your enemy can just surround them in CC making it actually 2 ways to deny RP —> wipe and keep em close

EDIT: This discussion got quite heated so im asking all of you to keep it a bit more polite please, some answers „sounded“ a bit aggressive

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 18:12:04


 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

The Monolith used to cost 285 points.
Bring it back to that cost, and we're golden.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
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Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 Blndmage wrote:
The Monolith used to cost 285 points.
Bring it back to that cost, and we're golden.


Now we're talking. I'd be all about this. Thats nearly a 100 point drop, and by god it needs it.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





What speaks against a flat RP as it was on the units itself?
Basically re-add a flat 4+ / 5+ for each loss at the end of a players turn, if the unit is not wiped.
I am fairly certain it was that way before and decent enough?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 08:58:58


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe GW could combine the FnP and the resurrection on RP?

Make RP a 5+++ FnP and ressurection on 6+ or the other way around, maybe the player may even determine which variant he wants to use (armywide) and don't make Necrons too cheap in exchange.


Apart from maybe Death Guard, there is no army that is supposed to have tough units and also has that in the rules.
(I mean 'losing less points per enemy turn' toughness, not IG 'my units are so cheap I can field more wounds than my opponent can kill' toughness).
Necrons should be a top candidate for a tough army.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Trollbert wrote:
Maybe GW could combine the FnP and the resurrection on RP?

Make RP a 5+++ FnP and ressurection on 6+ or the other way around, maybe the player may even determine which variant he wants to use (armywide) and don't make Necrons too cheap in exchange.


Apart from maybe Death Guard, there is no army that is supposed to have tough units and also has that in the rules.
(I mean 'losing less points per enemy turn' toughness, not IG 'my units are so cheap I can field more wounds than my opponent can kill' toughness).
Necrons should be a top candidate for a tough army.


I don't think FNP at all captures the effectbtheyre going for.
It's not that you can't drop a Necron because they're thought, it's that once you do, there's a very good chance they'll get back up after you've moved on.
Also, of an army who's whole thing is coming back, I'm getting really pissed by how easy other factions can revive things. Imperials can bring back so many different HQs, in many cases for a negligible cost, where as we need a 2CP strat and 4+ roll, or a relic, that still requires a 4+ roll..

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 p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can literally SEE the models being transported in this case.


So what ? Its just a model, and its not the actual size. Pretty much all vehicles in 40k are way to small.

Xenomancers wrote:
Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.


Not if its a stratagem that costs 3 CP and can be only used once per game.

It doesn't even need to be once per game. I suggested this in my completely reasonable fixes at the top of page 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/20 17:33:52


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Germany

 Xenomancers wrote:

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.


It cant be one of the most powerful abilities in the game if its easily denied.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.


It cant be one of the most powerful abilities in the game if its easily denied.

Bingo we have a winner!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I'd disagree. I'd suggest they are OP, but only slightly so because to hit modifiers can stack, which isn't entirely their fault.

Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer,
Is it materially different to say:

"You can turn off Fieldcraft stacking on a native -1 to a -2 by moving within 12 inches"? Isn't that a subset of turning off Fieldcraft by moving within 12"?

Regardless, isn't that a ability that is easily denied, yet still very impactful?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Slayer,
Is it materially different to say:

"You can turn off Fieldcraft stacking on a native -1 to a -2 by moving within 12 inches"? Isn't that a subset of turning off Fieldcraft by moving within 12"?

Regardless, isn't that a ability that is easily denied, yet still very impactful?

Not everyone has that -2 to hit, and honestly I'm fine with anything below -3 to hit, which is when modifiers become pretty silly in a D6 system.

And yeah it IS easily denied. Just like RP. The difference here is you can deny RP in the Psychic, Shooting, and Assault Phases. Fieldcraft, Shadowmasters, Hidden In Plain Sight, and Shroud Protocols can really only be denied in the movement phase (assuming they aren't really closely deployed).

Clearly one of those weaknesses is worse than the other, yes?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

What if you can do RP at the beginning of each players turn, and at the end of a phase in wihich the unit takes a wound?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/21 16:56:34


213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"Fieldcraft, Shadowmasters, Hidden In Plain Sight, and Shroud Protocols can really only be denied in the movement phase (assuming they aren't really closely deployed)"

I dunno. I've seen it countered in the Psykic, Shooting, and Charge phases.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I did forget the Psychic phase my bad.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in no
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Making RP less dependent on having at least one model left seems like something that could improve things
   
 
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