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not gotten into kill team yet myself, it came out when I was in "spend no money adeptus titanicus is coming" mode

BrianDavion wrote:
not gotten into kill team yet myself, it came out when I was in "spend no money adeptus titanicus is coming" mode

Go ahead and grab it up when you can. It's actually pretty awesome and has a lot of stuff- not as much as Necromunda, but it's a system that's pretty fun and you can add a lot of interesting and cool narrative stuff to your games.

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Don't you dare point out that all balance discussions on Dakka are worthless because everyone speaks like the game is only played at the top tables of international level tournaments, while that represents less than 0,1% of the player base!

Keep logic and facts out of Dakka, we don't need them!

Strange, I was told that mass use of terrain happens in non tournament games too. Or is it normal for people in the US to have terrain house ruled to be free game for cavalery and beast models?

My comment was more regarding the fact that everyone here believes that the game is only played with top lists in mind.

BA, DA and now SW are solid factions, perfectly competitive as mono codex until you want to put together a list that can compete in big national events. But that is not an issue, because almost everyone in here and almost every player of 40K will never do something like that.
This is why discussing balance in this forum is useless, it is like a car forum where the most common answer is "Yeah, that car is fine, but doesn't get the same times as a Ferrari, so it's useless"..

We discuss balance here because it is fun and as a mental exercise, but i hope that no one thinks that what we say here has any value, and i'm sure that GW is well aware of this.

Well maybe that is how the game is played in the US. In places where the cost of the game is really high,almost no one buys the "bad" stuff, which means the tournament lists you say no one plays are play at the store level. It is not a question of a ferrari vs an old Volvo. It is having a race car that is unmoded, and you don't get unmoded race cares outside of few events that are build that way. May as well say that SW are fine, because narrative play exists and with SW being the good guys you will never end up fighting custodes, or something like that.

I'm from Italy, here an army cost (600-700 euro) is around half of the average salary. It's not exactly cheap.
Obviusly players will take the good units even for local games, and indeed in my scene i have typical drukhari lists, alaitoc, yannari, IG+ custodes, IG+ BA and all that stuff. Doesn't matter, lists don't actually change that much, mono codici do stil win matches regularly, even the GK player sometimes wins.

In 8th edition players count more than lists, what makes national tournaments more restrictive for list building is more due to the level of players that partecipate in there. When you play at high levels then you need to bring only AAA lists because you know that every weakness will be exploited, but at the average 40k player level, there is nothing wrong with a mono DA list winning regularly over an IG+ custodes list. Sure there are obvious weaknesses in a mono DA list, but getting to exploit those is far harder than what you would assume by reading this forum.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

SR is overcosted sadly, but just b.c SW is getter a bit cheaper doesnt mean the SR wont soon either. Especially with the rule of 3 now, they really need to rebalance some points.

Well they nerfed it pretty recently. So it seems odd to buff the storm wolf - which is just a storm raven but better (SW can't carry a dread...but that is worthless).

Its been almost a year from the nerf.... how fast they been doing changes thats not long.

We also have a CA coming out soon (we think)

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe it got 2 nerfs.

#1 was when the AC and HuriB were spiked in price.
#2 was an additional nerf to the base cost approx the same time they raised the price of the fire raptor.

Time is blending together right now for me. So many stupid changes.

There have been stupid changes, but not leaving the hurricane bolter as a 4 point weapon whas not one of these,

Spoletta wrote:
There have been stupid changes, but not leaving the hurricane bolter as a 4 point weapon whas not one of these,

Nothing else could take them but Centurions and Crusaders, and that was an indirect nerf fo already lame units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There have been stupid changes, but not leaving the hurricane bolter as a 4 point weapon whas not one of these,

Nothing else could take them but Centurions and Crusaders, and that was an indirect nerf fo already lame units.

you're forgetting storm ravens

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There have been stupid changes, but not leaving the hurricane bolter as a 4 point weapon whas not one of these,

Nothing else could take them but Centurions and Crusaders, and that was an indirect nerf fo already lame units.

you're forgetting storm ravens

That was the original topic. I'm saying that nerfing the Hurricane Bolter was a nerf to more platforms that, well, didn't need that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
There have been stupid changes, but not leaving the hurricane bolter as a 4 point weapon whas not one of these,

Nothing else could take them but Centurions and Crusaders, and that was an indirect nerf fo already lame units.

you're forgetting storm ravens

That was the original topic. I'm saying that nerfing the Hurricane Bolter was a nerf to more platforms that, well, didn't need that.

yeah but this ijs sadly how it goes, storm ravens at the time the nerf came where being spammed to win tournies, GW nerfed the things several differant ways just to be sure

They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

He should loose the reroll wounds and get may play any strategum regardless once per turn for 0CP, even if that strategum has already been played this turn.
Still worth his insane points cost but actually allows the rest of the marine codex to be less needs improvements to be garbage tier.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

He should loose the reroll wounds and get may play any strategum regardless once per turn for 0CP, even if that strategum has already been played this turn.
Still worth his insane points cost but actually allows the rest of the marine codex to be less needs improvements to be garbage tier.

Space Marines would need better starts first IMHO

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

He should loose the reroll wounds and get may play any strategum regardless once per turn for 0CP, even if that strategum has already been played this turn.
Still worth his insane points cost but actually allows the rest of the marine codex to be less needs improvements to be garbage tier.

Space Marines would need better starts first IMHO

I don't see changes coming to him until Codexex 2.0 or a *massive* CA change list gets handed down. It's not something that simple point adjustments will fix. I'd like to see all Marine/Necron/etc level units (powered armor) move to 2 wounds, and terminators move to 3, as a beginning baseline (with no point changes). The RG can be nerfed after that starter.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

He should loose the reroll wounds and get may play any strategum regardless once per turn for 0CP, even if that strategum has already been played this turn.
Still worth his insane points cost but actually allows the rest of the marine codex to be less needs improvements to be garbage tier.

Since the game revolves around 2000 point play - he is not worth 400 points. In a 5000 point game he's broken beyond all reason - but since we never play at that point level in competitive play - it shouldn't matter. Calgar and a lieutenant is a strictly better setup for the cost. Because when you take Gman - you still have to take 2 space marine characters for a battalion. They offer redundant buffs and librarians are strictly awful for their points - you can't expect to pay 600ish points for support characters and pay "the marine price" for things and expect to win games. Sure I've had Gman go on a rampage and solo win a game before - but I've also had a game where harliquens surrounded him and blew him up turn 2 with 8 fusion pistols.

In any case - original topic. The storm wolf price drop is pure insanity. Really sad the army we are gonna see - is a space wolf airforce blowing the gak out of people way harder than storm ravens did before. It completely invalidates the storm raven nerf - they are the exact same kind of unit....it is strictly a power creep move. Oh and guess what - they are going to be -2 to hit because of the 3cp stratagem for -1 to hit aura.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

He should loose the reroll wounds and get may play any strategum regardless once per turn for 0CP, even if that strategum has already been played this turn.
Still worth his insane points cost but actually allows the rest of the marine codex to be less needs improvements to be garbage tier.

Since the game revolves around 2000 point play - he is not worth 400 points. In a 5000 point game he's broken beyond all reason - but since we never play at that point level in competitive play - it shouldn't matter. Calgar and a lieutenant is a strictly better setup for the cost. Because when you take Gman - you still have to take 2 space marine characters for a battalion. They offer redundant buffs and librarians are strictly awful for their points - you can't expect to pay 600ish points for support characters and pay "the marine price" for things and expect to win games. Sure I've had Gman go on a rampage and solo win a game before - but I've also had a game where harliquens surrounded him and blew him up turn 2 with 8 fusion pistols.

In any case - original topic. The storm wolf price drop is pure insanity. Really sad the army we are gonna see - is a space wolf airforce blowing the gak out of people way harder than storm ravens did before. It completely invalidates the storm raven nerf - they are the exact same kind of unit....it is strictly a power creep move. Oh and guess what - they are going to be -2 to hit because of the 3cp stratagem for -1 to hit aura.

Besides those Harequins just made Gman's reroll bubble sad. Modifier after rerolls means that the Harequin's -2 to hit made Gman's buff 50% less efficient.

On to the topic of Stormwolf or Stormfang. Imo they might also see a points increment like the latest Stormraven treatment in the near future through both CA and FAQ. So no worry, GW will be "fair"~~~ in nerfing Astartes great units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

In any case - original topic. The storm wolf price drop is pure insanity. Really sad the army we are gonna see - is a space wolf airforce blowing the gak out of people way harder than storm ravens did before. It completely invalidates the storm raven nerf - they are the exact same kind of unit....it is strictly a power creep move. Oh and guess what - they are going to be -2 to hit because of the 3cp stratagem for -1 to hit aura.

Did GW explain why they thought that SR are too OP, but all the eldar flyers are just fine and require no changes at all?

Karol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

In any case - original topic. The storm wolf price drop is pure insanity. Really sad the army we are gonna see - is a space wolf airforce blowing the gak out of people way harder than storm ravens did before. It completely invalidates the storm raven nerf - they are the exact same kind of unit....it is strictly a power creep move. Oh and guess what - they are going to be -2 to hit because of the 3cp stratagem for -1 to hit aura.

Did GW explain why they thought that SR are too OP, but all the eldar flyers are just fine and require no changes at all?

because someone once won a tourny with storm ravens. this was back when space marines where the only army with a codex (heck it mighta been the days when everyone was on the index)


One of these days I wanna bribe a big tourny runner to report that their tourny was won by some guy using the absolute worst over costed junk out there just to see if GW adjust their points up with the next FAQ

Thunder Hammer spam seems to be rather good for SW... that +1 to hit is actually rather nice!

BrianDavion wrote:
because someone once won a tourny with storm ravens. this was back when space marines where the only army with a codex (heck it mighta been the days when everyone was on the index)

It wasn't just one guy. There was a brief window where the SR list with RG providing buffs was prevalent across the competitive space.
The issue was that it wasn't "fun".

GW doesn't care much about "balance" - perhaps not unreasonably, as something has to be top tier until they release new content.
They seem to act very quickly if they get word something is obnoxious to play against and potentially scaring off non-competitive players/giving the game a bad name.

Hence why GW acted quickly to DE Razorwing flock spam too - even though the number of people with the models who could plausibly run that lists must have been numbered on one hand. "This isn't intended, this isn't fun, quick nerf it to the ground." I mean it wasn't even that great - it was just... ugly.

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
because someone once won a tourny with storm ravens. this was back when space marines where the only army with a codex (heck it mighta been the days when everyone was on the index)

It wasn't just one guy. There was a brief window where the SR list with RG providing buffs was prevalent across the competitive space.
The issue was that it wasn't "fun".

GW doesn't care much about "balance" - perhaps not unreasonably, as something has to be top tier until they release new content.
They seem to act very quickly if they get word something is obnoxious to play against and potentially scaring off non-competitive players/giving the game a bad name.

Hence why GW acted quickly to DE Razorwing flock spam too - even though the number of people with the models who could plausibly run that lists must have been numbered on one hand. "This isn't intended, this isn't fun, quick nerf it to the ground." I mean it wasn't even that great - it was just... ugly.

Unless its Eldar, eldar being unfun to play against and the most powerful codex is totally OK by GW though.

But back on topic I think one of the things that might be why Space Furries always get a better than most marine codex is that atleast one of the design team is a furrie lover.

Ice_can wrote:

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
because someone once won a tourny with storm ravens. this was back when space marines where the only army with a codex (heck it mighta been the days when everyone was on the index)

It wasn't just one guy. There was a brief window where the SR list with RG providing buffs was prevalent across the competitive space.
The issue was that it wasn't "fun".

GW doesn't care much about "balance" - perhaps not unreasonably, as something has to be top tier until they release new content.
They seem to act very quickly if they get word something is obnoxious to play against and potentially scaring off non-competitive players/giving the game a bad name.

Hence why GW acted quickly to DE Razorwing flock spam too - even though the number of people with the models who could plausibly run that lists must have been numbered on one hand. "This isn't intended, this isn't fun, quick nerf it to the ground." I mean it wasn't even that great - it was just... ugly.

Unless its Eldar, eldar being unfun to play against and the most powerful codex is totally OK by GW though.

But back on topic I think one of the things that might be why Space Furries always get a better than most marine codex is that atleast one of the design team is a furrie lover.

in the case of 8th it's just GW learning from their errors with the first batch of marine 'dexes

BrianDavion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
They really just needed to remove Roboute's reroll aura and leave the units alone IMO.

why should they remove an aura from him but allow every other commander to keep theirs?

The issue is the reroll wounds part of his aura is both too good and too difficult to balance. It buffs mid and low strength weapons a lot more than it buffs high strength weapons, which means that Roboute is only worth his points when he is near lots of Str 5ish shooting. This makes storm Ravens, fire raptors, repulsors, etc, about 120% more effective when he's around.

The issue with increasing the points of those units rather than changing Roboute is that most other factions with those units have no way to reroll wounds, so they feel the price hike a lot more. Why should space wolves and GK pay the same price as SM for those units when it's clear the only reason they cost more is because of Roboute? And it will likely take more than just a points change for Roboute, since at some point around 400 points he just isn't worth it anymore unless you perhaps have the exact combination of units to surround him with, and he certainly doesn't scale to any other points level.

jcd386 wrote:

The issue is the reroll wounds part of his aura is both too good and too difficult to balance. It buffs mid and low strength weapons a lot more than it buffs high strength weapons, which means that Roboute is only worth his points when he is near lots of Str 5ish shooting. This makes storm Ravens, fire raptors, repulsors, etc, about 120% more effective when he's around.

The issue with increasing the points of those units rather than changing Roboute is that most other factions with those units have no way to reroll wounds, so they feel the price hike a lot more. Why should space wolves and GK pay the same price as SM for those units when it's clear the only reason they cost more is because of Roboute? And it will likely take more than just a points change for Roboute, since at some point around 400 points he just isn't worth it anymore unless you perhaps have the exact combination of units to surround him with, and he certainly doesn't scale to any other points level.

Yep. Roboute's to wound aura needs to go. It totally feths the internal balance of the Marine codex. There are chapters other than Ultramarines, you cannot balance the whole codex on the assumption that everyone brings Guilliman.

It's also rediculous to have a Primarch acting as a parking attendant.

"Damn it brother I don't care if you scratch the paintwork on that fireraptor I told you before park closer to the prinarch so our weapons can magically be blessed to actually give us a chance to not all die before we kill any of the enemy."

Ice_can wrote:
It's also rediculous to have a Primarch acting as a parking attendant.

"Damn it brother I don't care if you scratch the paintwork on that fireraptor I told you before park closer to the prinarch so our weapons can magically be blessed to actually give us a chance to not all die before we kill any of the enemy."

actually a primarch staying within the lines of his forces and directing fire is pretty much exactly what I'd expect of Gulliman

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It's also rediculous to have a Primarch acting as a parking attendant.

"Damn it brother I don't care if you scratch the paintwork on that fireraptor I told you before park closer to the prinarch so our weapons can magically be blessed to actually give us a chance to not all die before we kill any of the enemy."

actually a primarch staying within the lines of his forces and directing fire is pretty much exactly what I'd expect of Gulliman

Pretty much. Guilliman is a General, not a Hero.