Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And IoM have Knights, Smash Captains, and Guardsmen. Much better than CIB.

IoM plasma is still loads better than Tau plasma.

 Galef wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

-

It's a good weapon, so why even nerf it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

-

It's a good weapon, so why even nerf it?

Personally trying to achieve 2 goals here:
1) price Plasma in a manner that gives other options a change (although this would be more by lowering those options points)
2) make the "Gets-hot" mechanic make more sense. Removing the whole model just seems wrong for multi-wound models like vehicles

So I'd like to see Overcharge 1s do a single wound at AP-3, but to compensate for this decreased risk, price Plasma a bit more to give room for other options to be lowered (i.e. Metla guns and Plasma guns swap costs)
That, I feel, achieves both of my goals

-

Bharring wrote:
And IoM have Knights, Smash Captains, and Guardsmen. Much better than CIB.

IoM plasma is still loads better than Tau plasma.

On scions yes. On marines, not as much.

Any weapon that can be made to do more damage to yourself more than the enemy can't be considered a good weapon.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

-

It's a good weapon, so why even nerf it?

Personally trying to achieve 2 goals here:
1) price Plasma in a manner that gives other options a change (although this would be more by lowering those options points)
2) make the "Gets-hot" mechanic make more sense. Removing the whole model just seems wrong for multi-wound models like vehicles

So I'd like to see Overcharge 1s do a single wound at AP-3, but to compensate for this decreased risk, price Plasma a bit more to give room for other options to be lowered (i.e. Metla guns and Plasma guns swap costs)
That, I feel, achieves both of my goals

-

Honestly a better system would like be a single Mortal Wound for the Plasma Pistol/Gun, D3 mortal wounds for the Hellblaster weapons and Plasma Cannon.

For other options they clearly need simple fixing. You could make the Plasma Gun 25 points but it doesn't fix how ineffective Melta works. We've had several threads on Flamers but none surprisingly for Melta weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

-

It's a good weapon, so why even nerf it?

Personally trying to achieve 2 goals here:
1) price Plasma in a manner that gives other options a change (although this would be more by lowering those options points)
2) make the "Gets-hot" mechanic make more sense. Removing the whole model just seems wrong for multi-wound models like vehicles

So I'd like to see Overcharge 1s do a single wound at AP-3, but to compensate for this decreased risk, price Plasma a bit more to give room for other options to be lowered (i.e. Metla guns and Plasma guns swap costs)
That, I feel, achieves both of my goals

-

Honestly a better system would like be a single Mortal Wound for the Plasma Pistol/Gun, D3 mortal wounds for the Hellblaster weapons and Plasma Cannon.

For other options they clearly need simple fixing. You could make the Plasma Gun 25 points but it doesn't fix how ineffective Melta works. We've had several threads on Flamers but none surprisingly for Melta weapons.

No - plasma overheats killing multiwound models is unacceptable. 1 wound max is the only way it could be acceptable. However - outside of the reason overheats exist (because it has always existed) it isn't justified in it's cost.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Any weapon that can be made to do more damage to yourself more than the enemy can't be considered a good weapon.

Currently a Marine overcharging can either kill himself or kill 2 Terminators in RF range, or 4 wounds off a vehicle. That's hardly doing more damage to yourself.

But the scion is cheaper and gets a free virtual drop pod.

"Any weapon that can be made to do more damage to yourself more than the enemy can't be considered a good weapon."
Is that why nobody brings Farseers, Spiritseers, and Warlocks anymore?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

-

It's a good weapon, so why even nerf it?

Personally trying to achieve 2 goals here:
1) price Plasma in a manner that gives other options a change (although this would be more by lowering those options points)
2) make the "Gets-hot" mechanic make more sense. Removing the whole model just seems wrong for multi-wound models like vehicles

So I'd like to see Overcharge 1s do a single wound at AP-3, but to compensate for this decreased risk, price Plasma a bit more to give room for other options to be lowered (i.e. Metla guns and Plasma guns swap costs)
That, I feel, achieves both of my goals

-

Honestly a better system would like be a single Mortal Wound for the Plasma Pistol/Gun, D3 mortal wounds for the Hellblaster weapons and Plasma Cannon.

For other options they clearly need simple fixing. You could make the Plasma Gun 25 points but it doesn't fix how ineffective Melta works. We've had several threads on Flamers but none surprisingly for Melta weapons.

No - plasma overheats killing multiwound models is unacceptable. 1 wound max is the only way it could be acceptable. However - outside of the reason overheats exist (because it has always existed) it isn't justified in it's cost.

It's acceptable when it's something like a Plasma Cannon exploding.

Bharring wrote:
"Any weapon that can be made to do more damage to yourself more than the enemy can't be considered a good weapon."
Is that why nobody brings Farseers, Spiritseers, and Warlocks anymore?

Farseers are practically immune to perils. Warlocks are generally considered really bad and are only taken in certain situations - spirit seer is always preferable. Spirt seers have 4 wounds so don't blow up all their buddies with a bad roll. What people don't do - is cast spells with their rubric sorcerers because it's catstrophic when perils happens.

Overheat really just needs to die - it is a dumb mechanic from a different type of game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Any weapon that can be made to do more damage to yourself more than the enemy can't be considered a good weapon.

Currently a Marine overcharging can either kill himself or kill 2 Terminators in RF range, or 4 wounds off a vehicle. That's hardly doing more damage to yourself.

How about a captain with a plasma gun. Roll a 1? Dead 5 wound character. How about Mephiston? Overcharge plasma pistol and you are dead...How about a razorback with twin plasma - roll a 1 and a 130 point 10 wound vehicle is dead. Obviously these are things you don't do...because you can't. The weapon is so unreliably good I have removed it from all my lists.

Think Plasma inceptors - If I am playing against DE, CWE, Tau, shooting at carnifex/flyers or basically about half the targets in the game I have come to realize - this squad is going to kill itself almost everytime it shoots and all they gotta do is pay for an on demand -1 to hit. LOL. How is that even remotely balanced? That is a 175 point squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plasma slay effect is so powerful - currently it's best use is to shunt 10 bezerkers into enemy lines after a warptime.

Shooting a combi plas plus the bolter at a flyer is about a 50% chance to blow yourself up. Letting the bezerks get out and charge. LOL. The mechanic is so insane it just needs an instant hotfix.

What crazy to me is people actually say plasma needs to be nerfed. I'm like...waaa? Plasma is terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My friends and I always joke about this - like - if gun overheating is so deadly - if only they could weaponize it - they could kill anything.

"this squad is going to kill itself almost everytime it shoots and all they gotta do is pay for an on demand -1 to hit."
-1 to hit on a BS3:
Each model has a 1/3 of dying.
-2 to hit on a BS3:
Each model has a 1/2 of dying.

You'd need to stack -4-to-hit to make it kill itslef 'almost everytime it shoots'. You're really only talking about when you're Rapid Firing within 12" against a unit outside 12" that cast a psycic power, a stratagem, a CT, *and* had a stock special rule to make that happen. In addition to being stupid enough to choose *that* one unit to shoot at.

Perhaps they should add the 'Safe Plasma' profile setting to the weapon, so it can be fired without risking it, albeit at a weaker setting? Y'know, S6 D1? Wait, you want that *and* S7, because IoM?

I want the other choices to not suck so this matters less. Flamers suck. Grav sucks. Melta mega sucks.

The standard plasma profile isn't really worth it, either.

I also have removed plasma from my lists because of the prevalence of to hit penalties.

Bharring wrote:
"this squad is going to kill itself almost everytime it shoots and all they gotta do is pay for an on demand -1 to hit."
-1 to hit on a BS3:
Each model has a 1/3 of dying.
-2 to hit on a BS3:
Each model has a 1/2 of dying.

You'd need to stack -4-to-hit to make it kill itslef 'almost everytime it shoots'. You're really only talking about when you're Rapid Firing within 12" against a unit outside 12" that cast a psycic power, a stratagem, a CT, *and* had a stock special rule to make that happen. In addition to being stupid enough to choose *that* one unit to shoot at.

Perhaps they should add the 'Safe Plasma' profile setting to the weapon, so it can be fired without risking it, albeit at a weaker setting? Y'know, S6 D1? Wait, you want that *and* S7, because IoM?

A plasma inceptor has 2d3 shots each. 4 shots on average. Those are the numbers for a single shot with a plasma at -1 to hit. See how the unit kills itself shooting at that nonsense. Therefore - considering it's everywhere. Plasma is garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I want the other choices to not suck so this matters less. Flamers suck. Grav sucks. Melta mega sucks.

The standard plasma profile isn't really worth it, either.

I also have removed plasma from my lists because of the prevalence of to hit penalties.

Well I'd really like to know the where the plasma hate comes from. It's so obviously bad to me - I think it's really just people remembering turn 1 plasma scion spam before they got double nerfed. Or like players who are so bad they lose to Hellblaster spam. I really don't know.

Plasma is something meqs and especially primaris live in fear of, but simultaneously struggle to take advantage of. Plasma scions are still very strong, even after the double nerf. Plasma on marines? Not so much. Part of it is that IG has the points to throw away because their troops and tanks are amazingly priced.

Given that bolters remove more points of marines than guardsmen, I don't get why plasma is the boogie man, either. If we take IoM plasma out of the game, all the units that suck still suck and all the units that are amazing are still amazing.

What are other examples of 2W models that OC plasmas are particularly good against?

Terminators.

For giggles, drop the Plasma overheat and add this stratagem;

Plasma Overload (1 CP): When the opponent makes a “To Hit” roll of 1 with an Overcharged plasma weapon, use this stratagem to cause 1D3 Mortal wounds to the target per “1” rolled.

I do agree that some Xeno plasma - specifically the Dissie and maybe the Reaper Starswarm (maybe because may not be Plas) are more insulting than IoM plasma.

I'm not terribly concerned with Plas putting a list in top-10 at a top tournament. I'm worried that it outshines most other options in most gameplay.

Knights, Ynnari, Smash Captains, CP shenanigans, etc are certainly more OP. But how can you justify a weapon that is a straight-up upgrade, especially for the points, over most other weapons? Either in-book or out of book.

On one hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas got so much of a buff, whereas Tau Plas got nothing. On the other hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas makes Melta pointless, and Dissies make Dark Lances points.

Bharring wrote:
I do agree that some Xeno plasma - specifically the Dissie and maybe the Reaper Starswarm (maybe because may not be Plas) are more insulting than IoM plasma.

I'm not terribly concerned with Plas putting a list in top-10 at a top tournament. I'm worried that it outshines most other options in most gameplay.

Knights, Ynnari, Smash Captains, CP shenanigans, etc are certainly more OP. But how can you justify a weapon that is a straight-up upgrade, especially for the points, over most other weapons? Either in-book or out of book.

On one hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas got so much of a buff, whereas Tau Plas got nothing. On the other hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas makes Melta pointless, and Dissies make Dark Lances points.

Then make flamers, melta, and grav viable. Don't take away the only special that does anything for marines. For those that still bother, anyway.

Tau plas should probably just be rapid fire 2. That would make up for it quite a bit.

Melta is pointless even if plasma were removed. The proliferation of invulns and ineffectiveness vs T8 makes melta pointless, not plasma. I'm not going to pay for -4AP and never get that value out of it. Plus 12" range sucks really bad now.

Bharring wrote:
I do agree that some Xeno plasma - specifically the Dissie and maybe the Reaper Starswarm (maybe because may not be Plas) are more insulting than IoM plasma.

I'm not terribly concerned with Plas putting a list in top-10 at a top tournament. I'm worried that it outshines most other options in most gameplay.

Knights, Ynnari, Smash Captains, CP shenanigans, etc are certainly more OP. But how can you justify a weapon that is a straight-up upgrade, especially for the points, over most other weapons? Either in-book or out of book.

On one hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas got so much of a buff, whereas Tau Plas got nothing. On the other hand, it's stupid that IoM Plas makes Melta pointless, and Dissies make Dark Lances points.

I once again have go repeat:
Even if you nerf the Plasma Gun (which you shouldn't), is the Melta Gun worth 17 points in it's current incarnation?

You'd have a hard time selling me on a melta being 7 pts atm, much less 17 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
You'd have a hard time selling me on a melta being 7 pts atm, much less 17 pts.

For a fast moving unit you could sell a 7 point melta gun.

That would have to be pretty damn fast. Maybe if bikers weren't overcosted before gear, then it would be useful. BA ASM are just hopeless.

Martel732 wrote:
That would have to be pretty damn fast. Maybe if bikers weren't overcosted before gear, then it would be useful. BA ASM are just hopeless.

Assault Marines have basically always been hopeless outside how people would use them strictly for Special Weapons with Blood Angels like a mini Command Squad.

That's like the opposite of how a melee based squad should work.

 skchsan wrote:
Shots cease to fire once you roll 1, and no further shots are resolved.

I.e. you elect to double tap overcharged plasma.
You roll 1 on the first shot, including reroll and modifiers.
The model is slain, and the second shot may not be rolled for.

Alternatively, for random no. shot weapons that was translated from the blast weapons, a single to hit roll can be used for all the shots.
This rationale is from the fact that the RNG nature of the 8th ed blast weapons already reflects the old mechanics of scatter dice (with the exception that at least 1 shot always hits in the new system). By forcing another round of to hit roll adds another layer of dice rolling where it's already been translated:

Old blast weapon mechanics:
1. pick a target model
2. roll scatter dice (1 roll, 2 dice)
3. resolve how many are under the blast - all models under the blast is "hit", do not roll dice to determine whether the model is hit.
4. resolve damage/wound/save roll.

New blast weapon mechanics:
1. pick a target unit.
2. roll to determine number of shots (1 roll, Xd3/6 dice)
3. roll that many (Xd3/6) dice to determine how many shots hit.
4. resolve damage/wound/save roll.

There are significantly more dice rolls involved in resolving blast weapons in 8th ed.

Haha!

Old blast weapon mechanics (in reality):
1. Pick a target unit
2. Go find the fething blast markers. They're see-though. Where did I leave that again? Ok, great I've got it.
3. Lean over the table and hold the blast marker above the specific bit of the base you want it on to try and get the most models.
4. Check the firing model can definitely see that specific target model.
5. Find the bloody scatter dice.
6. Holding the template vaguely steady over the selected point, roll the scatter dice
7. With your third hand, use a tape measure to determine where it actually lands.
8. Have an argument with your opponent as neither of you have the same point of view because parallax.
9. 'Agree' on numbers under the blast.
10. Roll wound/damage
11. All the wounds hit the guy with the magic armour standing nowhere near the template, making steps 2-9 totally pointless.

The new system does require more dice rolling, but that doesn't mean it's slower!!



.

Martel732 wrote:
That would have to be pretty damn fast. Maybe if bikers weren't overcosted before gear, then it would be useful. BA ASM are just hopeless.

Indeed. Bikes are at an awkward place as inceptors fill their role better for cheaper. Bike should be at around 22-24 points to reach an internal balance between other better, newer, more $$ units that fill more or less the same role. Only if GW realizes better unit = more points, weaker unit = less points.