Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galas wrote:
I wasn't back pedaling, to be honest I didn't realized those changes where so far ago.

Fair enough, you seem genuine enough. (You can understand why I thought it though, but my bad).

 Galas wrote:

And as I said in other threads, the "spanish meta" is like, months behind USA meta, so slaaneshi obliterators where still the real hotness here as recent as this summer in some really big tournaments. (Ok, big by spanish standard, 64-120 people. I know compared to 500 person tournaments they seem very small, but our biggest tournament is in 1 and a half month and it has only 360 people on it, and thats the most people it will have, like, a new record)

I actually went back and looked at the pre FAQ 1 meta. 2017 BAO didn't have results so I couldn't compare (and 8th had JUST dropped so it probably wouldn't be that representative of anything), but Nova later on in the year, was up there.

EIGHT chaos lists made top 16. That's literally half the top tables. All were very different style of lists. Chaos definitely got their representation here.


Not a single Obliterator though.




Only a pair of them took Magnus.

I don't even think Mortarian/Death Guard were playable then (if so they didn't show up).




This is PRE deepstrike nerf, when Obliterators were at their strongest according you guys (and according to me too), and Chaos had less toys than they do now making Oblits even more desirable, and even with all this + the biggest representation Chaos will probably ever have in a top 16, and Obliterators didn't even make a single list that performed.


I don't think they were ever a competitive staple for Chaos at all, honestly. I think it's one of those units that everyone takes because everyone else takes them, without actually thinking about whether they are worth their crunch. And that's why even though Chaos is constantly placing, and people are constantly taking Obliterators to tournaments, its the Chaos players NOT taking Obliterators making top tables with Chaos, and the people who ARE taking them finishing the day with a negative ratio. Seriously. I went all the way through BAO this year in order of highest placing, I had to go past some number of Chaos lists in the double digits to find the first one running Obliterators, and that guy was the first guy to get a negative score with the army. All other lists running Oblits were even lower. Not a good look.

Man. I remember threads on Dakka talking about how bringing 9 obliterators was a dick move, etc... and at least in Spain I saw some usage out of them, the typical list of 9-12 slaaneshi obliterators with 120 respawning cultists etc... but yeah. After the data you have presented I think is clear that they were never that good to begin with.

I suppose it was just a internet dream... the mandela effect

 Galas wrote:
Man. I remember threads on Dakka talking about how bringing 9 obliterators was a dick move, etc... and at least in Spain I saw some usage out of them, the typical list of 9-12 slaaneshi obliterators with 120 respawning cultists etc... but yeah. After the data you have presented I think is clear that they were never that good to begin with.

I suppose it was just a internet dream... the mandela effect

Well, to be fair to yourself, people WERE taking them. They were just losing with them. You probably didn't imagine people playing it. They are the definitive "looks good on paper" unit, that might even feel good to use a lot of the time. Watching 3 infantry guys bring down a Knight is a definite feel good moment. The human brain is WIRED to remember these times and gloss over the boring ones when remembering events, and your opponent's will do the same. But the other side of that same coin is the games where they roll poorly can't even crack open that key transport for you, or they roll decently but in the wrong slots, and you lose because your AT couldn't do it's job, and there goes your tournament placing. Once you take them off paper and look at the pitfalls, they just aren't very good, reliable, or safe unit to use imo. It's a fair dispute whether or not Havocs are better (I think they are slightly better) but both are pretty lacking and only really even in the discussion because it's all the CSM dex has to pick from without allies or FW stuff. But in the context of units in 8th as a whole - nah, Oblits are bad. Just in my opinion of course, but the sentiment is echo'd by some of the better players out there at the tournament scene too, and while even they can be wrong, it's certainly worth taking into consideration when evaluating whether or not this unit is actually any good.

Also - Dakka is often just an echo chamber of people parroting better players opinions. This place is often heavily behind the curve as well.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Man. I remember threads on Dakka talking about how bringing 9 obliterators was a dick move, etc... and at least in Spain I saw some usage out of them, the typical list of 9-12 slaaneshi obliterators with 120 respawning cultists etc... but yeah. After the data you have presented I think is clear that they were never that good to begin with.

I suppose it was just a internet dream... the mandela effect

Well, to be fair to yourself, people WERE taking them. They were just losing with them. You probably didn't imagine people playing it. They are the definitive "looks good on paper" unit, that might even feel good to use a lot of the time. Watching 3 infantry guys bring down a Knight is a definite feel good moment. The human brain is WIRED to remember these times and gloss over the boring ones when remembering events, and your opponent's will do the same. But the other side of that same coin is the games where they roll poorly can't even crack open that key transport for you, or they roll decently but in the wrong slots, and you lose because your AT couldn't do it's job, and there goes your tournament placing. Once you take them off paper and look at the pitfalls, they just aren't very good, reliable, or safe unit to use imo. It's a fair dispute whether or not Havocs are better (I think they are slightly better) but both are pretty lacking and only really even in the discussion because it's all the CSM dex has to pick from without allies or FW stuff. But in the context of units in 8th as a whole - nah, Oblits are bad. Just in my opinion of course, but the sentiment is echo'd by some of the better players out there at the tournament scene too, and while even they can be wrong, it's certainly worth taking into consideration when evaluating whether or not this unit is actually any good.

I don't think that's quite fair to the original question.

Have they ever been top tier competitive? No, fair enough. I don't play tournaments though, and while some other people were arguing this perhaps it was never my position.

Are they GOOD though? Absolutely. They are a solid unit that pull their weight and are actually quite a bit better than many similar options in the codex.

You'll surely note that in these tournament lists, Obliterators are not outclassed by other units doing the same job. Tournameny Chaos lists instead are taking hordes and Daemon Princes mostly. A lot of people don't want to just run those lists though, and outside of a tournament setting subbing in a few Obliterators will not hamstring you, they will do you proud.

The question is whether they are good in 8th. They suck in 8th compared to other dexes good AT units. Are they one of the only useable AT options in the dex, outside of a tournament setting, and without taking Daemon Princes, FW, or allies? Yeah I guess so. That's a lot of quantifiers though mate.

 Stux wrote:
and outside of a tournament setting subbing in a few Obliterators will not hamstring you, they will do you proud.

Outside of a tournament setting, anything can you do you proud some games. If you're admitting they suck in tournament, which they do, then we have our answer here.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The question is whether they are good in 8th. They suck in 8th. Are they one of the only useable AT options in the dex, outside of a tournament setting, and without taking Daemon Princes, FW, or allies? Yeah I guess so. That's a lot of quantifiers though mate.

 Stux wrote:
and outside of a tournament setting subbing in a few Obliterators will not hamstring you, they will do you proud.

Outside of a tournament setting, anything can you do you proud some games. If you're admitting they suck in tournament, which they do, then we have our answer here.

I strongly disagree with your position.

There is more nuance to power than a binary 'top tier competitive' or 'trash'.

That is absurd.

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The question is whether they are good in 8th. They suck in 8th. Are they one of the only useable AT options in the dex, outside of a tournament setting, and without taking Daemon Princes, FW, or allies? Yeah I guess so. That's a lot of quantifiers though mate.

 Stux wrote:
and outside of a tournament setting subbing in a few Obliterators will not hamstring you, they will do you proud.

Outside of a tournament setting, anything can you do you proud some games. If you're admitting they suck in tournament, which they do, then we have our answer here.

I strongly disagree with your position.

There is more nuance to power than a binary 'top tier competitive' or 'trash'.

That is absurd.

There is. And there is also more than the tertiary "top tier competitive" "trash" "just good". I'm saying they are a bad unit. Not one of the worst units in 40k. Just a bad unit. Units that aren't ultra OP broke make places in tournaments all the time. Blightlord Terminators got first place in one of them for example, they are considered a pretty average unit. Oblits couldn't even make the top HALF of competitors even once in that same tournament, and it wasn't for lack of people trying with them.

There's nothing absurd to what I'm saying. In fact, logic, statistics, and top player anecdotes all seem to be on my side of this debate. I like Obliterators too, but try to have some objectivity here. They aren't even touching at what a good AT unit looks like in 8th.

 SHUPPET wrote:

There's nothing absurd to what I'm saying. In fact, logic, statistics, and top player anecdotes all seem to be on my side of this debate. I like Obliterators too, but try to have some objectivity here. They aren't even touching at what a good AT unit looks like in 8th.

None of that is true. Logic and statistics are saying they are good.

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

There's nothing absurd to what I'm saying. In fact, logic, statistics, and top player anecdotes all seem to be on my side of this debate. I like Obliterators too, but try to have some objectivity here. They aren't even touching at what a good AT unit looks like in 8th.

None of that is true. Logic and statistics are saying they are good.

My entire argument is pretty clearly based off logic, and I've gone to great lengths to support my statements with it, and not once have I just thrown out a baseless unsupported statement as so many often do in these sorts of discussions. You may have your own logic that disagrees with mine, and you are welcome to it, but don't start throwing out accusations that my opinion is based out of absurdity, because no matter which side you stand on, it quite clearly is not. I disagree with you too but I'm not accusing you of being absurd, you just have a different opinion to my own. I think I've swayed two people in this thread alone with logic, there is no absurdity in my statements.

I've posted a lot of tournament statistics supporting my statements. All the math posted so far supports my statements. Feel free to match any of my statistics with ones proving me wrong, but until then I think you need to rethink your approach to this debate, or consider just for an instant that you MIGHT be wrong here, because as it stands you are just throwing out emotional language and declaring that you disagree.

I agree with Shup. Ive been playing my 1ksons/Tz demons mainly. And I do not miss my oblits at all. Far better choices for AT.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

There's nothing absurd to what I'm saying. In fact, logic, statistics, and top player anecdotes all seem to be on my side of this debate. I like Obliterators too, but try to have some objectivity here. They aren't even touching at what a good AT unit looks like in 8th.

None of that is true. Logic and statistics are saying they are good.

My entire argument is pretty clearly based off logic, and I've gone to great lengths to support my statements with it, and not once have I just thrown out a baseless unsupported statement as so many often do in these sorts of discussions. You may have your own logic that disagrees with mine, and you are welcome to it, but don't start throwing out accusations that my opinion is based out of absurdity, because no matter which side you stand on, it quite clearly is not. I disagree with you too but I'm not accusing you of being absurd, you just have a different opinion to my own. I think I've swayed two people in this thread alone with logic, there is no absurdity in my statements.

I've posted a lot of tournament statistics supporting my statements. All the math posted so far supports my statements. Feel free to match any of my statistics with ones proving me wrong, but until then I think you need to rethink your approach to this debate, or consider just for an instant that you MIGHT be wrong here, because as it stands you are just throwing out emotional language and declaring that you disagree.

The absurd part was your statement (as I read it) that if a unit isn't top tier competitive then it is not a 'good' unit.

If that is not your position, then apologies and I withdraw that comment.

Tournament statistics only tell us so much, it's quite a narrow part of how the game is played.

I blocked Shup when he started insulting people.

I suggest the rest of you bow down to his unequivocal mathhammer answer. That is the only method on which to base your opinions. Doing otherwise should make you feel bad.

I think there is a misconception that if there are 2-3 units better than a given unit, than that unit is not good.
This is just not true.

Eldar Windriders are another good example of this. While they were certainly overnerfed in 8th to compensate for how good there were in 7th, they are still a "good" unit.
Overpriced, sure, but they are still capable of pulling their weigh if used properly.
Their issue is that any roll they could fill, Shining Spears or even Vypers can do better. But Windriders are still a "good" unit, they just need a points drop to be competitive over those other 2 options.

-

The issue is that Obliterators really aren't bad math-wise. However, using them and expecting them to tackle heavier tanks is silly. That's not their job mostly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue is that Obliterators really aren't bad math-wise. However, using them and expecting them to tackle heavier tanks is silly. That's not their job mostly.

Exactly. Oblits can target tanks in a pinch, but there strength is being an all-round threat.
The fact that you can roll the D3s BEFORE choosing their targets really exemplifies this.

They should always be placed so that they have multiple and varied target options.

-

I think people need to agree more fundamentally on some criteria for judgement.

First, the context has been determined by the OP: Are Obliterators still good without Fleshmetal, and are they better shoot terminators? I think on this we can say 'yes' and 'yes'.

Second, we have this idea concerning what is a good non-competitive unit. In the CSM codex competitive looks like: DPs, Cultists, and Berzerkers (well, not any more probably) .... ummm, is that it? Abandon, maybe? Sorcerers? Besides that there are then a good handful of units that don't see competitive play which are still pretty good. These include, in my judgement, Chaos Lords, Dark Apostles, Exalted Champions, Helbrutes, Havocs, Predators, and Maulerfiends. And I think it's more than appropriate to put Obliterators here because: i) they were competitive for a good long while this edition, and often found in tournament lists; and ii) they're still the best dedicated anti-tank CSM has in the codex (even in DPs are better at tank killing in general), beating out the other two here, Havocs and Predators.

That still leaves a solid 2/3 of the codex outside this list. If you want to restrict yourself to solid top tier competitive units, you're looking at between 2-5 units. That neither a CSM army, or a fun long-term playing list. And while there is certainly room for discussion on what is in the next tier (the 'good' tier), I don't think it's either wrong to talk about such a tier, or to exclude Obliterators from it. I have attended one tournament in my life, having played hundreds of games of 40k, and so it is perfectly sensible, reasonable, and meaningful to talk about a 'good non-competitive' unit.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice. It's simply ANOTHER opportunity for Obliterators to fail. Sometimes, you will get a big payoff. Other games your AT will flub, sometimes you will roll poorly, sometimes even average rolls will be a flub as demonstrated, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. You can point at the times that it works, but for the alternatives, that's almost everytime (ANYTHING can roll poorly, you just want to minimize the probability of it happening - Oblits maximize it with a bunch of different areas they can potentially to fail). Oblits are a not a consistent or competitive unit in 8th, and the fact that math is against them on paper, the fact that off paper there is so many more ways they can fail and added pitfalls to the unit, combined with the fact of their complete lack of presence even in one of the most common top-table factions, should maybe be an indicator to go back over your notes.

I love Obliterators, and I love the concept. But in this current edition, they just aren't that great.

funny you said that with that much certainty, because if I remember right, tournies stats showed that they were one of the staples of chaos list, and (i know i know) personal experience showed me that every chaos players in nearby tournement brought at least 2 squad of oblits (before FAQ deepstrike nerf to T1).

More realisticaly, the S and AP wouldn't matter too much, but you will always keep a command reroll for the damage if it matters a lot (shooting at magnus or knight or other beefy unit). Plus the fact that you have more than one unit so the stats average out more. That + prescience and Cacophony and near a DP (again, staples of a competitive chaos list for a while) mean that you hit on 2+ rerolling ones. Let's say they get the worse roll for everything but you reroll the damage with a CP, you still get 24 shots at S7, AP-1, Dam 2.25, rerolling ones and hitting one 2's.
The difference for havocs, who in the same setup get : 8 S8 AP-3 DamD6 shots, is that you can only influence the damage of one shot with a CP reroll, instead of all of the units.

Galef wrote:I think there is a misconception that if there are 2-3 units better than a given unit, than that unit is not good.
This is just not true.

I don't think this at all and I've made that explicitly clear, but I guess some people are just going to read what they want to at this point. I gave examples of perfectly fine unit like that isn't even top tier like Blightlords, but can still get first place of a tournament. Oblits are a risky competitive unit, not a good one.

I think that there is this misconception that if a dex only has one or two options for a role then those units are automatically good.

VoidSempai wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So is 2/1/3, which triples the damage against a 4++ knight.

Yep - but you don't get to select those dice. It's simply ANOTHER opportunity for Obliterators to fail. Sometimes, you will get a big payoff. Other games your AT will flub, sometimes you will roll poorly, sometimes even average rolls will be a flub as demonstrated, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. You can point at the times that it works, but for the alternatives, that's almost everytime (ANYTHING can roll poorly, you just want to minimize the probability of it happening - Oblits maximize it with a bunch of different areas they can potentially to fail). Oblits are a not a consistent or competitive unit in 8th, and the fact that math is against them on paper, the fact that off paper there is so many more ways they can fail and added pitfalls to the unit, combined with the fact of their complete lack of presence even in one of the most common top-table factions, should maybe be an indicator to go back over your notes.

I love Obliterators, and I love the concept. But in this current edition, they just aren't that great.

funny you said that with that much certainty, because if I remember right, tournies stats showed that they were one of the staples of chaos list, and (i know i know) personal experience showed me that every chaos players in nearby tournement brought at least 2 squad of oblits (before FAQ deepstrike nerf to T1).

It's funny YOU said that with so much certainty, because stats have already been posted a couple of posts before yours that you might wanna read up on. The people bringing Oblits were not the people doing well in tourney. Also that meta was 6+ months ago..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I blocked Shup when he started insulting people.

I suggest the rest of you bow down to his unequivocal mathhammer answer. That is the only method on which to base your opinions. Doing otherwise should make you feel bad.

You "blocked" me after you made a snarky response to me and got the tiniest bit of snark in return, without a single insult in there. This is another extra snaeky post from you about it right here. I say "blocked" because if you had actually done it when you said then wouldn't have seen the example of math you later reference in your post. You are being provocative and beyond thin-skinned at in return this point, and why someone would still be weighing in on the content of a debate if they blocked the responses is beyond me, but my perspective is much more than a single incidence of math hammer, in fact I'm not the person who started posting it. You made it abundantly clear that you couldn't respond to the logic and are choosing to attack the person, but if you can point to one post in this thread where I said a single insult at someone, I'll personally message a MOD and request and a ban for myself. If not, please stop with this garbage and let the thread continue or I'll have to message that same mod about you. Thanks.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oblits are a risky competitive unit, not a good one.

I think the definition of 'good' is important here.

For instance I consider anything reasonably above average to be 'good' regardless of whether or not they would see light in a tournament list - unless of course the question has been asked from the perspective of making tournament lists.

They're one of those units that can either perform exceptionally well or exceptionally poorly: everything depends on how the dice roll. If you're blessed with good results you might even kill a titan with a large number of them (for fun I put up a Warhound in TTS as part of a 3,000 Point army to see how it would fair, and 3 units of Obliterators stripped so many wounds off it on the first turn that it was left alone as a toothless cripple for the rest of the game), or you'll roll low strength shots constantly and fail to kill a predator.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They're one of those units that can either perform exceptionally well or exceptionally poorly: everything depends on how the dice roll. If you're blessed with good results you might even kill a titan with a large number of them (for fun I put up a Warhound in TTS as part of a 3,000 Point army to see how it would fair, and 3 units of Obliterators stripped so many wounds off it on the first turn that it was left alone as a toothless cripple for the rest of the game), or you'll roll low strength shots constantly and fail to kill a predator.

Or if you roll low, you pick an target that isn't a vehicle or monster and do far better.
If you only use them to kill big targets, of course you will be disappointed.
But if you always have a "lesser" target available, those low rolls won't always be a bad thing.
Remember that at worst, Oblits are carrying 24" Assault Reaper Autocannons. Treat them as such instead of Assault 4 Damage 3 Lascannons and you won't be so disappointed by them.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
They're one of those units that can either perform exceptionally well or exceptionally poorly: everything depends on how the dice roll. If you're blessed with good results you might even kill a titan with a large number of them (for fun I put up a Warhound in TTS as part of a 3,000 Point army to see how it would fair, and 3 units of Obliterators stripped so many wounds off it on the first turn that it was left alone as a toothless cripple for the rest of the game), or you'll roll low strength shots constantly and fail to kill a predator.

Or if you roll low, you pick an target that isn't a vehicle or monster and do far better.
If you only use them to kill big targets, of course you will be disappointed.
But if you always have a "lesser" target available, those low rolls won't always be a bad thing.
Remember that at worst, Oblits are carrying 24" Assault Reaper Autocannons. Treat them as such instead of Assault 4 Damage 3 Lascannons and you won't be so disappointed by them.

-

Agree. Worst case scenario they're still decent.

I'd say treat them like 4 shot plasma guns. Deploy them with that in mind and you shouldn't be disappointed.

 Stux wrote:
I'd say treat them like 4 shot plasma guns. Deploy them with that in mind and you shouldn't be disappointed.

4 shot plasma that doesn't overheat

-

 Galef wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I'd say treat them like 4 shot plasma guns. Deploy them with that in mind and you shouldn't be disappointed.

4 shot plasma that doesn't overheat

-

Admittedly usually with lower AP. But mitigated by the number of shots.

Basically assume they are anti-infantry/bikes/speeders and they'll be fantastic, and if you roll well you also threaten heavy armour.

Perhaps I invest a bit too much in my Oblits, but they have been my go-to unit for 3 editions now. Currently I bring 3 units, one Slaanesh, and two Nurgle. Slaanesh gets buffed with Endless Cacophony and Nurgle gets healed/buffed by Grandfathers Gift.

I also bring a Jump lord, and a Nurgle herald to drop with them. I havent tried out using a Feculent Gnarlmaw, but I have one ready to be painted.

The Slaanesh can be dropped solo, and just shoo twice to be effective, the Nurgle ones get their damage buffed by the heralds Locus, and can be healed with a Stratagem, and a Psychic power. Even better when I can bring an Oblit back to life with one wound remaining,

Ive only played one game with the new Beta, but even still I usually wait till turn 2 anyways.