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Tactics,

Observations:
Knights - knight banner size of 4 or 5 (or even 6) is surprisingly resilient to low / medium strength firepower, however, banner size of 5 or 6, tends to be a bit unwieldy in maneuvering, and a challenge to keep in cover / out of line of sight, a banner of 4 knights seems to be the "sweet spot".
Knights - targeting knights, making called shots, extremely valuable, can take out the thermal cannon, or take out the leader making their command checks a challenge
Knights - knights in the open will absolutely be totally wiped out by a volcano cannon, avoid this at any cost
Knights - knights up close will totally devastate what ever they target,
Summary: knights are a "glass cannon" keep them in cover, out of line of sight, maneuver to get in close and destroy your enemy, if they are caught in the open .. they .. will... die !!!!

Warhound Titans - many discussions of specilizing, them (i.e. 1 warhound with double vulcan, 1 with double turbo laser) observation has shown this tactic to be some what unreliable. I now operate multiple warhounds, each with vulcan megabolter and plasma blastgun.(see follow on comments reguarding blast weapons). I always run them in a pair squadroned up. Running a squadron of 3 is possible, but a challenge to maneuver together to support each other. Running 2 squadrons of 2 warhounds.. setting up one squadron on each flank is a viable tactic.

Warlord Titans- extremly durable, hard to kill.
However, the Carapace rule for their carapace weapons, means there is a 10" bubble around them were smaller targets are "safe".. the extremly low speed of the warlord makes this a major weakness if targets get in that close. Blast weapons, such as the volcano cannon, are awsome at wrecking targets and casuing massive damage, they will absolutely destroy knight banners, however, the 5" template means that when smaller targets get up close, you will be unable to shoot them (please note the rule for blast weapons that the center hole must be over the targets base.. meaning smaller targets that get up close will not be able to be shot at, because the 5" template can overlap the base of the warlord and that is not allowed) this means.. that a warlord armed with the apoc missile launcher plus pair of volcano cannons will be totaly unable to shoot at smaller targets that get up close or in base contact.
Warlord weapons -
Plasma cannon is viable option for replacement of the volcano cannon, it is not a blast weapon, and will be able to shoot at targets at point blank range, and still engage targets at distance
Quake Cannon - extremly effective weapon, and no shinannigans with the plasma reactor, but is a blast weapon, and suffers from the negatives of when targets get up close
Power Fist - will make anyone think twice about getting close to a warlord, however, this is gamble. Take the fist and keep opponents away due to the threat the power fist represents, but loose any ranged capabilities and deal no damage from that weapon slot. Best option is to take a ranged weapon, that does not have a blast template (plasma cannon best option it seems)

Carapace weapons -
All but one of the carapace weapons have that restriction of straight ahead column fire.
Apocolypse Missile launcher is the most viable at shield stripping, the straight column line of fire means the warlord will almost always need to be turning slightly to align to target.
The warlord carapace mounted gattling blasters have a 90 degree front arc presenting with more targeting capabilities, but only have a 24" range, due to the carapace rule, this typicaly means you will only be able to shoot at targets from 10"-24" range (this is a weakness vs fast moving targets, and while fantastic as a shield striping weapon due to high volumn of fire, the limited range makes it questionable at best)

Summary: Warlord I have found best used as a long range support platform, the threat it presents can force opponents to manuver to avoid the threat it presents or to close with rapidly to get under its arc of fire to destroy it.. use this psychological factor to your advantage. NEVER leave a warlord titan unsupported

Reaver Titan: the speed, manuverability and weapons load out options make this the most flexible of all the titans, and we could spend many hours discussing the options and all would be viable, I will instead discuss what i personaly use the reaver for.
1) body guard, for the warlord.. Gattling + thermal cannon + apoc launcher load out, staying some what close to the warlord, anyone that wants to close within the "bubble" of the warlord must go thru the reaver, or must deal with the reaver first, set up in such a way that if anyone wish's to engage the reaver, they must also expose themselves to the fire power from the warlord. This weapon load out is extremly efficient, the combo of the gattling / apoc launcher will strip shields efficiently, the thermal cannon (refer to the fusion special rule) will wreck what ever unshielded target it hits, and can cause massive damage to knight banners, it is a 3" blast weapon and suffers all the negatives that go along with it (see above) but not as extreme as the 5" blast
2) objective taker / flanker, same load out but working with warhound titans to flank opponents

Pretty sure the gatling blaster arc is a typo. Every other warlord carapace weapon is forward corridor only, I don't think there is supposed to be anything particularly special about them.

Although the plasma cannon can fire point blank, it only hits on 5s as you'd have to use weapon skill. If you do get your Warlord charged, you'll really wish you'd taken the power fist after all... Better than a volcano cannon in that case, but the plasma cannon is still probably only going to get you a single S8 hit.

for me, the very short range of the gattling blaster I have found a challenge to work with.. fast targets I might get one round of shooting befor they are able to get inside the 10" bubble,

The plasma cannon, only hits on 5s if target is within 2" but anything further out hits on 3s, which is better then not hitting anything at all if I had a power fist and target is 3"+ away,

Part of the reason my tactics always include a "body guard" for the warlord, (1 reaver and 1 small banners of knights), remaining army to flank / take objectives

Typical 2000 point army List
Warlord (Apoc launcher + Plasma + Volcano cannon)
2x Reaver (Apoc launcher + Thermal Cannon + Gat )
2x Warhounds (plasma + Vulcan)
2x knight banners, 4 knights each

I'm starting to think Knights are fairly obsolete now that Warhounds are out. Warhounds excel at everything Knights do except melee, which is good because it means you're encouraged to keep your 'hounds dancing around the 8-12" range band instead of up close where magazine detonations kill all the things.

In general I find that the Apocalypse and twin Belicosa Warlord is a fine Titan to build your force around. Park it somehwere and rain death at long range. Resist the urge to close with the enemy.

A Reaver, then, makes an excellent escort to the Warlord. It can be equipped with an Apocalypse launcher too, adding its fire to the Warlord's at long range, and a pair of Laser Blasters to punish any nasty flankers that try to close in on the Warlord.

Warhounds I find useful for rushing up under cover to bring their weapons to bear on preferably the same target that's being bombarded by the Warlord. The pups can rapidly down shields with their mega bolters and follow up with close-range plasma and turbo laser fire. They also make good Knight hunters.

As for tactics, I believe in concentrating firepower, destroying one enemy engine utterly before shifting fire to the next. In a contest with relatively few moving pieces, taking out one enemy engine can easily cost him 20% of his total firepower. If you can leverage that advantage to take down the second engine even faster, you're well on your way to steamroll towards victory!

Finallly, loadouts: I think it's wise to spread your anti-shield and anti-armor weapons out across your engines instead of focusing on one or the other. A twin vulcan Warhound is going to be useless against an unshielded Warlord, whereas with a turbo laser it could still make a dent. Worse yet, if your dedicated shield stripper gets destroyed (and a smart enemy will make it a priority target), the rest of your force is now throwing high-power weaponry uselessly avainst viod shields!

Regarding the Warlord's carapace gatlings' arc, that is definitely a typo. All Warlord carapace guns have the fire corridor as an arc, all Reaver guns have 360 arc. There is no reason to believe that one gun would be special in such a way without paying a lot more.

Don't have a screenshot with me, but I also seem to remember James Hewitt commenting on this very situation closer to the launch, saying woops, that's a layout typo from the graphic design phase.

Theory Crafting:
found some of my old epic stuff, messing around with theoretical rules / ideas

Leman Russ Tank Company
points: unknown
10 tanks
BS 4+, WS 4+
each tank has:
Battle Cannon, short 8" +1, long 24" --, Dice 1, Str 5, ordnance
Lascannon, short 12" --, long 24" --, Dice 1, Str 5
each tank has an armor value of 9, roll to hit, then roll armor penetration, each point of damage kills 1 tank
example. Volcano Cannon - 5" template, lands on 4 tanks, scoreing 4 hits, roll 4 dice, for every dice of 2+ kill one tank

when the tanks fire, all must fire at the same target
in theory, they will be extremly fragile, sweeping them off the board by the handful, but with concentrated fire, they can do a decent amount of damage to knights and smaller titans

Super Heavy Tank ideas
Shadowsword
thinking of useing the questoris support banner template, minus the ion shields, all other stats / armor , ect remaining the same
1-3 shadowswords per detachment, points cost: unknown
weapons, each tank would have 1 volcano cannon, able to upgrade adding 2 or 4 las-cannons
volcano cannon, would use the stats from the reaver volcano cannon weapon card (ignoreing the draining effect, keep it strength 10, or reduce to strength 9, undecided yet)
Lascannons, would be short 12" / long 24" with zero accuracy bonus/penalty, 1 dice per las-cannon, at strength 5

I’m printing an 8mm Shadowsword. According to the fluff they can’t fire a volcano quickly, it should have to remain stationary to fire and possibly melt down if fired in a successive turn.

Was crunching some math mostly for knight h2h though guess my table can be used to figure out which part to aim in terms of pure damage output(though aimed shots aren't generally done with "where I can cause most damage points for undamaged titan. Where to shoot is generally decided by which is near dead). Anyway noticed S differences cause some interesting effects. Comparing S7 vs S8 with 10 attacks hitting on 2+. (note I might have screwed up my logic or math somewhere and I'm going with battlescribe stats as I don't have terminals with me ATM)

S7 Reaver:

body 4.16
head: 6.94
legs: 5.5

S8 reaver:

body 6.9
head 9.7
legs 8.3

S7 warhound

body 8.3
head 4.16
legs 6.94

S8 warhound

body: 11.11
head: 6.94
legs: 9.72

S7 Warlord:

body: 2.77
head: 1.38
legs: 2.77

S8 warlord:

body: 5.55
head: 2.77
legs: 4.16

So in terms of pure damage blips it's reaver: head, warhound body, warlord either body or legs unless S8 at which point body wins out. In terms of critical hits only S8 warhound body can cause so that doesn't really affect. Of course previous damage is going to have big impact with modifiers and less to do to destroy titan.

New knights will be very lethal. S8 is def on titan hurting level. And generally the higher S the less difference amount of damage blips caused is between locations.

Once I get back home and have cards will start working on what happens if I attack weapons. Is it faster to take down titan by hitting lots against weapon and cause body hits at S7 and S9(so mostly aiming those S9) which is how this math crunching started in the first place!

edit: Found out somewhat blurry picture of warlord terminal and I think battlescribe has serious errors in it so above are almost certainly off. will update when I fix the values
edit2: Used the pictures from net to update values. Only warlord changed.
edit3: Other misc notes. Reaver legs become equal to head at S10. Body with warlord becomes prime target around S10-S11 with all the criticals coming into play. Gap with head decreases at S12 again though. At S12 warhound body and legs cause equal amount of damage but body has more criticals so that's body as well.

One point of damage has a pretty large effect.

tneva82, I think that the most interesting bit you can glean from that analysis is where the large jumps in efficiency are and use that information for deciding when to start targeting wounded engines with small arms. Mounting piles of bonus modifiers from injuries and positioning are what kill in this game, I've found.

#EngineKillWithDoubleAvengers

 Sherrypie wrote:
tneva82, I think that the most interesting bit you can glean from that analysis is where the large jumps in efficiency are and use that information for deciding when to start targeting wounded engines with small arms. Mounting piles of bonus modifiers from injuries and positioning are what kill in this game, I've found.

#EngineKillWithDoubleAvengers

True that. That's why I don't agree with idea I saw elsewhere that gatling blaster is such a lousy weapon. a) it's good at stripping shields b) add in flank/rear bonus or damaged and you can hurt a titan. And 6 shots makes aimed shots not unreasonable proposition. I have had titans be finished off when opponent was cunning enough to keep gatling blaster last and then aimed at hurt location...

Continuing on my math project I already learned something new. I have been waaaaaay overestimating power of knight h2h attacks vs weapons. While that works very well vs warhound with reaver titan 24 attacks from knights will result in 10 damage(20 hits, 13.33 times S7 hit, 1 of those goes to flip card upside, S7 has 1/2 chance of direct hit and 1/6 chance of devastating hit so 6 and 4 in average). Non-damaged reaver ideal target in pure damage output would be body for 16 wounds. Now mind you this is pretty bad result for reaver anyway but hitting weapons is not QUITE able to take down undamaged reaver.

Warlord same knight swarm will be looking at around 6 damage direct to body or legs, 3 hacking at weapons. Obviously sometimes taking one weapon out is worth it though. But in terms of damage output generally weapons is not as good as I had previously thought so would be more of thing to do with small groups to hinder target. Big squads, maybe with twin ccw's, are better off hitting softest target from body/legs/head(body, legs, head in that order)

BTW vs warlord S7 vs S8 has HUGE difference. Direct vs body S7 gets that 6.666 damage point, taking warlord to 2nd to last armour point(last +2 modifier slot). With S8 we go to 13 which basically vaporizes warlord. Albeit the new lancers won't likely be packing 24 attacks but that 1 blip doubles the damage output vs warlord. Those lancers are going to be have biggest effective damage boost in h2h vs warlords. Old ones rip apart smaller titans just fine but warlord was still fairly tough. Lancer in numbers can REALLY hurt warlord and not just pick up on weapons.

Gatling blaster aimed shot vs +2 body slot results in average 1 blip of damage. 2 with +3(ie hull breached).

What I’m getting from this is that my dual melee Knights should get replaced by the new taller Knights.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
What I’m getting from this is that my dual melee Knights should get replaced by the new taller Knights.

Not really. Things old knights do better than new ones:

a) Kill warhounds and reavers better per point than lancers
b) kill other knights better per point than lancers EDIT: Incorrect actually. Forgot to take into account ion shields which do work in h2h and lancers get +1 there if they have save, which against knights they do, so that tips it in favour of lancers. Interesting. Lancer is better vs smallest and biggest targets but worse vs the 2 in the middle
c) don't underestimate usefullness of those meltaguns. Automatic S8 hits is pretty useful. And missile pods at top adds up utility while maintaining 2 CCW
d) durability. You have 7 questors for 4 lancers. 5 points of damage to destroy questor. 6 to take down lancer. Thus 35 needed to take down questors, 24 to take down lancer. +1 to save roll isn't equilavent of 45% more hull points. Whole shield can also be negated and critical hits don't care about extra hull point either so ability to have more bodies makes you tougher then.
e) lancers are taller and wider. Depending on your terrain lancers could be visible where questors can hide.

The 2 share different purposes. Lancer is warlord hunter. Questors hunt smaller stuff. Though reaver isn't THAT small and point for point 2 CCW questors beat lancer in h2h.

Oh and questors perform better the less charge bonus you get.

1700ish points of Engage and Destroy, my legio Favilla crushed the opposing blasphemers.

Full Venator maniple w. a doublefist Reaver and few knights vs. two Warlords, two Hounds and both Questoris and Cerastus banners.

I got to choose the deployment and went with close quarters, trying to get quickly into melee and Inferno range.

First turn all his knights evaporated, either dissolving into the acid pools trying to rush my engines (houserule: knights ignore movement penalties, not the damage from Dangerous Terrain) or by walking into a double-Inferno Cannon shaped trap. Meanwhile my fisty Reaver gets uppity and the machine spirit fires the Warp Missile in response to being shot, stubbing a Warlord's toe. My leader Reaver engages his Warhounds at range, aided by my knights and kick some flamers offline.

Second turn my fisty Reaver makes scary noises and draws about all fire to itself, getting nearly crippled and burning in the process, but buys time for my Hounds to dance towards the flank of the enemy firebase. The front Warlord starts to lose shields.

Third turn the flaming Ruina Superborum jumps over a building and jumps down on a Warhound, piledriving it in half. This results in a plasma explosion that sends the Reaver flying backwards, falling to its doom in the acid pits. The Warlord nearby loses the rest of its shields and eats a hefty serving of lasers immediately afterwards, getting very close to critical. As his forces dwindle and my Hounds draw closer to uncounterable harrying positions, my opponent graciously forfeits the battle.

Hounds, man. Hounds are the best.

Isn't that reaver bit odd for venator? None of the carapace weapons are super hot choice for venator bonus shot. Seems you are not taking full bonus from venator without one big gun for the reaver

tneva82 wrote:
Isn't that reaver bit odd for venator? None of the carapace weapons are super hot choice for venator bonus shot. Seems you are not taking full bonus from venator without one big gun for the reaver

Two Reavers. The leader in the maniple had melta cannon, laser blaster and turbolasers, while the doublefister was an out of maniple reinforcement. It's the unpainted one down right

Only got one bonus off, but that melta is brutal. Ripped the Warlord a new one.

Oh ok no issuns then!

Can we talk about the paintjob on the yellow Warlord? To each their own but...

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Can we talk about the paintjob on the yellow Warlord? To each their own but...

Heh, it's a bit unique, yeah. Basically this guy decided to go full on meme-lord with his titans and they are full of these scribblings. He didn't originally intend to play with them, but then I kinda happened (as these games often go). Now even he is getting a bit embarrased about it

My primaris Blood Angels are a joke army called the Blood Angles but at least I’m painting them seriously.

can you run multiple maniples in your "army"?
or is just 1 maniple only and rest is reinforcments?

(couldent find any mention of it, but seeing as you can run different legios in your "army" i find it to be a bit odd they wont allow you to run 2 different maniples in your "army"

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
can you run multiple maniples in your "army"?
or is just 1 maniple only and rest is reinforcments?

(couldent find any mention of it, but seeing as you can run different legios in your "army" i find it to be a bit odd they wont allow you to run 2 different maniples in your "army"

As you say, Its not specifically stated you cannot (not that I can find at least) but I think it is intended to be 1 maniple plus supporting titans/knights.

Has anyone tried a dual Inferno Cannon Warhound?

I’m thinking it could be rather good at stripping shields, what with the auto-hit. Set it on a Warlord, and you can even, feasibly, keep in its side and rear arc?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Has anyone tried a dual Inferno Cannon Warhound?

I’m thinking it could be rather good at stripping shields, what with the auto-hit. Set it on a Warlord, and you can even, feasibly, keep in its side and rear arc?

Yup. Works very well.

Can strip shields for your Venator Reaver to shoot, but honestly it's quick and brutal enough to either circle the enemy or punch through their line and burninate things from behind. Run under the shields and Warlords will be very afraid. Engine kills confirmed. Also a superb knight deterrent.

Nice.

Reckon that might be getting a whirl once I’ve managed to get some games under my belt!

Soulless wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
can you run multiple maniples in your "army"?
or is just 1 maniple only and rest is reinforcments?

(couldent find any mention of it, but seeing as you can run different legios in your "army" i find it to be a bit odd they wont allow you to run 2 different maniples in your "army"

As you say, Its not specifically stated you cannot (not that I can find at least) but I think it is intended to be 1 maniple plus supporting titans/knights.

When rules say "battlegroup must consist of AT LEAST ONE maniple" and use term maniple in plurals lots...I would say it's legal to field more than one. After all if intent was 1 but no more it would say "battlegroup must consist one maniple...".

It is absolutely intended that you run one or more maniples. This is evident from legio rules: each maniple you have that uses extra rules (that can vary between them) gives your opponent more stratagem points. One or more maniples, usually one below 1500 points and more in 2000+

Well actually legio rules are for each element that have legio rules. Reserve reaver with legio specific rules gives opponent 2 strategem points(which discourages giving legio specific reserves too much. For maniple it's 2 CP for 3-5 titans. For reserves it's 2 per 1 or 2 in case of warhounds. Much worse ratio)

tneva82 wrote:
Well actually legio rules are for each element that have legio rules. Reserve reaver with legio specific rules gives opponent 2 strategem points(which discourages giving legio specific reserves too much. For maniple it's 2 CP for 3-5 titans. For reserves it's 2 per 1 or 2 in case of warhounds. Much worse ratio)

Yes, that to be more precise. Usually one would most likely use extra rules for a themed legio maniple, so they are often one and the same. Still supports multiple maniples.

Has anyone tried 3 Warhound squadrons? Is it worth the points?