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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






The gods have their place in the setting, they even have origins. Perpetuals are just normal humans who happen to be completely indestructible for no reason whatsoever.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's a difference between things like Chaos Gods, who are an established part of the setting - some might even say one of the defining features of the 40k universe - and something not just added much later, but altered from the original background. The thing I dislike about the Perpetuals is how pointless they seem overall. They seem to be there purely to allow us to have a first-hand account of events in the past, while messing up the whole Ollanius stuff from the end of the Heresy.

I actually didn't mind Grammaticus as a Perpetual. It's the introduction of a whole bunch of them after that that really annoys me. They just seem so unnecessary. The whole point of the grimdark 40k universe is how it diminishes the regular person, reducing them to cogs in a machine, footnotes in history. Adding in random immortal dudes who are still regular humans in all other respects just seems kind of pointless.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






It always amuses me how people latched onto Ollanius Pius. It was a throwaway line about a single detail in the caption for a painting, that was retconned before most of the people here were likely born. and yet it’s still there, even when the retcon was retconned.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It always amuses me how people latched onto Ollanius Pius. It was a throwaway line about a single detail in the caption for a painting, that was retconned before most of the people here were likely born. and yet it’s still there, even when the retcon was retconned.

I think it speaks for power of that narrative.

   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

And it was on one of the art pieces that drew me into the setting. It’s an integeral part of my 40k journey.

The chaos gods are just that gods. But they are severely limited in the setting by being unable to act in the material universe. And the c’tan In the setting are tiny fragments of there former star eating gods.

Demon princes are botched blessed and cursed by demon hood. It again limits their ability to operate in the marterial universe, their immortality exists in a realm where time has no meaning. So isn’t that great.

So onething you haven’t actually answered any of my points about why they suck as a concept in 40k. Because that’s the game and the setting we are talking about here. Not 30k. What do that add to 40k?

Answer. Nothing. They are just a plot tool for 30k writers. They go against the ethos of the 40k setting and detract from the universes futility.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





I'll fully admit that, yes, Andykp, they are pretty clearly plot tools and are used as a lens by which we get an in-universe comparison of "our" time and 30k/40k. Their impact on the setting is hardly different to what a "normal" human can do. The only difference being that death is less... final. There doesn't NEED to be an inherent downside or caveat with characters having powers. Sometimes, that's simply not required for the story.

But okay, I admit that Perpetuals add little, and what they do add is something that I don't put a massive amount of value in. However, at the same time, I don't think Perpetuals diminish anything about the setting, and therefore aren't much of an issue to me.
The "going against the ethos" might be more a case of GW/BL moving their idea of what the setting is, and their ethos. In this way, the Perpetuals go against YOUR ethos of 40k, but apparently not the "official" and recent BL version of it.

I also don't think it detracts from the universe's futility. The Heresy still happens, 40k still happens, despite ALL attempts to stop it. Any event in 30k is destined to result in 40k. That's futility. No matter what any of these Perpetuals do, they won't change the fact that the Imperium WILL end up like it does in 40k.


They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






Onething123456 wrote:
They are not completely unkillable. Fulgurite (created by the Emperor)can perma kill them, so can Chaos. Their immortality can be removed.


There is nothing stupid about them. Unless you are saying that nigh-omnipotent reality warping Gods (the Chaos Gods), and Gods from the beginning of the universe that can create black holes and destroy solar systems (The C'tan. As shown on page 9 in the 8th Edition Necron Codex. Page 9) are stupid. Or Daemon Princes.

Immortality already existed in 40k before the Perpetuals. Daemon Princes are immortal and Godlike.


I know this is going to fall on deaf ears but hear it goes....

The point you are missing about the perpetuals isn't their in story actions it's in their over use as a plot device by BL. When Perpetual John Grammatius was introduced in Legion I could kind of go along with the idea of him. He was a Human agent used in a long long long game of subversive Chaos espionage/ Counter espionage, counter intel between the sentient warp storms and a group of extremely long lived Xenos. For that I could suspend my disbelief and accept that "He/It" works within the plot of Legion, as it was a book about secrets and lies. Like I said John works in that setting and as John's job was complete at the end of the book his story was complete.

Now just like when a sculptor back in the day made a Space Marine Dev sgt pointing at what he wanted his unit to shoot at it, was a good idea. But just like GW did when for a long while A LOT of special characters where pointing, BL took a good idea and ran it into the ground...... the guy who jumped into the battle of two gods to save HIS Emperor.... naaaa now he's not a normal human he's some mutant who has lived since the beginning of human history. He's been at MOST of humanity's wars, he's lived for as long as the Emperor has.... it just kinda ruins the feels behind what Pius stood for before he became a immortal freak....before he was the posterboy for selflessness. He knew consequences of his actions, he knew he was going to die, he knew what distacting Horus was going to cost him, now meh he will just come back or he wont because of plot or magic? Now we have Perpetuals running around everywhere, now anyone can become one because they are a plot device (aka a McGuffin), not part of the story. They are just there to move The Plot™ along and fill in expository statements.

We know how the HH books end, we know Horus dies and the Emperor ends up on the Golden Throne. It was how they got there that was interesting. That's what kept me interested until around book 30 something, I've pretty much lost interest in it not because BL is trying to tell a good story and is just taking a while but because BL just sees the HH and The Siege ™ books as cash cows used to milk the whales.

Perpetuals are like Primaris LT's you know another one is coming down the pipeline, you know he's going to be bare headed. The only thing left to guess about is how is he going to be holding his helmet....
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It always amuses me how people latched onto Ollanius Pius. It was a throwaway line about a single detail in the caption for a painting, that was retconned before most of the people here were likely born. and yet it’s still there, even when the retcon was retconned.


I've observed that there seems to be a corellation between people who latch onto the original narrative and those who tend to be pro-IG very anti-powerful characters in 40k. I can certainly understand why there is a corellation, because if a "regular dude doing something nifty" is retconned out, people whose main appeal of 40k is "the normal guy holding the line" are obviously going to dislike the change. Creed for example would lsoe some of his impact as a character if they retconned him to... a secret 21st primarch or something.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'll fully admit that, yes, Andykp, they are pretty clearly plot tools and are used as a lens by which we get an in-universe comparison of "our" time and 30k/40k. Their impact on the setting is hardly different to what a "normal" human can do. The only difference being that death is less... final. There doesn't NEED to be an inherent downside or caveat with characters having powers. Sometimes, that's simply not required for the story.

But okay, I admit that Perpetuals add little, and what they do add is something that I don't put a massive amount of value in. However, at the same time, I don't think Perpetuals diminish anything about the setting, and therefore aren't much of an issue to me.
The "going against the ethos" might be more a case of GW/BL moving their idea of what the setting is, and their ethos. In this way, the Perpetuals go against YOUR ethos of 40k, but apparently not the "official" and recent BL version of it.

I also don't think it detracts from the universe's futility. The Heresy still happens, 40k still happens, despite ALL attempts to stop it. Any event in 30k is destined to result in 40k. That's futility. No matter what any of these Perpetuals do, they won't change the fact that the Imperium WILL end up like it does in 40k.


Fair points about their impact on the current setting but you can already see in this forum the effects of the poor version of the horus heresey is having on the interpretation of the 40k setting. BL HH books are all about the super humans and how it was all their plans and doings. And some people who like those books take it as gospel and begin to see 40k as all about the super humans.

I’ve seen a huge shift in ethos in 30k but 40k still seems to be about the desperate attempts of humanity to survive. “There is only war”. If perpetuals SnapBack their way into 40k then war becomes less of a problem if you are immortal.

AoS has immortal stormcast things but they at least lose a bit of their souls each time they are reforged. A bit of peril there.

My bigger issue, which perpetuals are a symptom of, Is the black library’s handling of the heresey as a whole. I think they have done it no justice, over simplified it and made it it all too emo and shallow. And as a whole that only diminishes the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It always amuses me how people latched onto Ollanius Pius. It was a throwaway line about a single detail in the caption for a painting, that was retconned before most of the people here were likely born. and yet it’s still there, even when the retcon was retconned.


I've observed that there seems to be a corellation between people who latch onto the original narrative and those who tend to be pro-IG very anti-powerful characters in 40k. I can certainly understand why there is a corellation, because if a "regular dude doing something nifty" is retconned out, people whose main appeal of 40k is "the normal guy holding the line" are obviously going to dislike the change. Creed for example would lsoe some of his impact as a character if they retconned him to... a secret 21st primarch or something.


Latch on to seems to be a demeaning term to use. I think prefer would be better. I prefer the original pius story, even though it was barely a sentence. It’s still better than the the perpetuals to me. It’s a very contractary setting without a single definite narrative. I prefer certain versions. I haven’t latched on to them like some desperate fanboy which is the implication of the term.

Not actually offended at all by the way, it’s just semantics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/13 11:25:36


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Andykp wrote:Fair points about their impact on the current setting but you can already see in this forum the effects of the poor version of the horus heresey is having on the interpretation of the 40k setting. BL HH books are all about the super humans and how it was all their plans and doings. And some people who like those books take it as gospel and begin to see 40k as all about the super humans.
I like 30k, but I understand that, as far as it seems, that's how 30k's meant to be. It's MEANT to be about the conflict and personal struggles of the Primarchs and the Emperor. It's no secret that xenos involvement is minimal in 30k. But, as I see it, that's okay, just like how I'd expect human involvement in the Fall of the Eldar or the War in Heaven to be minimal.

Now, as for people trying to take the 30k style into 40k, that's not BL's fault. If people want to focus on the characters, that's up to them. Maybe the idea of characters is popular to them.

I’ve seen a huge shift in ethos in 30k but 40k still seems to be about the desperate attempts of humanity to survive. “There is only war”. If perpetuals SnapBack their way into 40k then war becomes less of a problem if you are immortal.
We have perpetuals in 40k. Anval Thawn, of the Grey Knights, is one, and yet we don't see the Imperium suddenly winning every fight he's in. Immortality, on a small scale, like a single soldier, is hardly an issue. And there is an important distinction between immortal and invulnerable.

AoS has immortal stormcast things but they at least lose a bit of their souls each time they are reforged. A bit of peril there.
And in 40k, the peril comes from the fact that A, their impact is very minimal on the whole setting, and B, that they CAN be perma-killed in some cases.

My bigger issue, which perpetuals are a symptom of, Is the black library’s handling of the heresey as a whole. I think they have done it no justice, over simplified it and made it it all too emo and shallow. And as a whole that only diminishes the story.
I personally disagree. I think humanising the Primarchs and actually telling a proper story instead of a bunch of half-truths and fake reports is conducive to creating a strong universe. You can choose not to read them if you don't want your idea of the setting spoiling, but creating a cold, hard, strong story definitely helps to grow a fanbase around it.

Also, over simplified? With the amount of plot threads in it, it's easier to understand ASOIAF, and that's regarded as incredibly complex.


It’s a very contractary setting without a single definite narrative.
I think this view used to be true. Nowadays, with how GW is treating the universe, and while it does have lots of contradictions within the universe, on a meta level, the setting does have a definitive narrative.

I personally don't have an issue with that.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Ah yes, the lore of the grey knights, widely considered by the 40k fanbase to be the least masturbatory, most grounded, reasonable, and intelligently crafted lore fitting seamlessly into the 40k narrative.

Why, if a perpetual appears in there, there's no way they could be a contrived, lazy, overdone plot device!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/13 12:55:54


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





the_scotsman wrote:
Ah yes, the lore of the grey knights, widely considered by the 40k fanbase to be the least masturbatory, most grounded, reasonable, and intelligently crafted lore fitting seamlessly into the 40k narrative.

Why, if a perpetual appears in there, there's no way they could be a contrived, lazy, overdone plot device!
I mean, is this the same 40k fanbase that STILL demonises the Ultramarines for what Ward said, what, nearly a decade ago?

Complaining and overreacting about Ward's lore is hardly surprising.

(On that note, while I fully admit he wrote some pretty questionable stuff - mostly Ultramarine based - I didn't find the Grey Knight stuff that bad. Even Draigo, as a concept was a cool idea, and I haven't seen many people complain about Thawn, even when it was *cool* to hate the Grey Knights.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/13 13:01:32



They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

I think Bligh did a great job of fluffing our the HH without it all being about the primarchs daddy issues. The real question is who is their mum???
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Andykp wrote:
I think Bligh did a great job of fluffing our the HH without it all being about the primarchs daddy issues. The real question is who is their mum???
He might not be their mum, but Malcador is DEFINITELY the stepmother.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Pretty sure him breastfeeding them might have caused some of the issues.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Has the OP read Legion? If not I recommend it to the OP.

I really enjoyed that book, especially in comparison to Battle for the Abyss which I read soon after.
John Grammaticus (a perpetual) was flawed, made mistakes, but had some awesome abilities and fought for reasons he believed in.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





TarkinLarson wrote:
Has the OP read Legion? If not I recommend it to the OP.

I really enjoyed that book, especially in comparison to Battle for the Abyss which I read soon after.
John Grammaticus (a perpetual) was flawed, made mistakes, but had some awesome abilities and fought for reasons he believed in.



Yes, I have read Legion. But I hope Dan Abnett will come out with more books about the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetuals Oll Persson and Damon Prytanis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
The gods have their place in the setting, they even have origins. Perpetuals are just normal humans who happen to be completely indestructible for no reason whatsoever.



Perpetuals can have their immortality removed. They can die permanently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/19 17:41:59


 
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




MI

If you want more Damon, you need to read Old Earth. It is a side plot, but the perpetuals play a role in that book that is going to leave you really missing out if you have not read it.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 ikeulhu wrote:
If you want more Damon, you need to read Old Earth. It is a side plot, but the perpetuals play a role in that book that is going to leave you really missing out if you have not read it.


Does Damon Prytanis talk about something more? I would love to know if it confirms he assassinated MLK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/19 19:06:30


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Ah yes, the lore of the grey knights, widely considered by the 40k fanbase to be the least masturbatory, most grounded, reasonable, and intelligently crafted lore fitting seamlessly into the 40k narrative.

Why, if a perpetual appears in there, there's no way they could be a contrived, lazy, overdone plot device!
I mean, is this the same 40k fanbase that STILL demonises the Ultramarines for what Ward said, what, nearly a decade ago?


It would be more valid if you said 'demonizes Ward.' The 40k community's general dislike of Ultras pre-dates Ward's presence in the company by at least a decade, if not more.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I am hoping for some more of the Perpetuals. Does Damon Prytanis muse about anything new he did in Old Earth?
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Onething123456 wrote:
I am hoping for some more of the Perpetuals. Does Damon Prytanis muse about anything new he did in Old Earth?


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/766542.page#10235640

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I meant if he was at any new places (not places like Iwo Jima since we know he was there already), but alright.
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

You asked essentially the same question twice in three posts. You stated you're "hoping for more Perpetuals" for the nth.

Here's a pro tip. If nobody answered your question 48 hours ago, and the thread hasn't moved on at all, there's literally no reason to ask it again. It pisses people off.

Here's another. Repeating statements ad nauseum with little or no interaction with the ongoing discussion that the thread has, by some miracle, managed to generate, pisses people off.

To conclude, here's something to blow your mind, there are people on here, myself included, who are old enough to remember when "1st Edition Rogue Trader" was just "Warhammer 40000." I bought a copy of the rules in a shop. New. For money. We, let's call us "sensei," were in a position to be able to buy Lost and Damned, Slaves To Darkness, the Compendium, the Compilation, Freebooterz, 'Ere We Go and a bunch of other stuff when it was brand new information. If you're the age you claim to be, I'd played hundreds of games of 2nd Edition while I was still younger than you.

What you're apparently so excited and obsessed by is old news. You're figuratively running into a film critics convention and yelling "Bruce Willis was dead all along!"

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Alright. I am twenty years old. I was born in May 29, 1998. No doubt on that. And I wasn't talking about 1st Edition lore here. I'll stop. And FYI, I don't even know who the hell Lightking is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/22 00:24:14


 
   
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Making Stuff






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I like spoons. Also, the cutting mat on my desk is green. Lamp.

 
   
 
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