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Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even AP 0 does work on marines outside of cover. A lot of work. Sisters work. Marines don't. Make marines more like sisters.

To be fair sister's of battle work in small numbers due to AoF etc but full army of sisters tends to suck a bit, really maybe Power armour does need to be a 2+ to be worthwhile in 8th edition.

This, sisters do work only because they can fire twice with many units for free, without investing CPs. Then they have a very good transport from FW and an effective superhero. Stop.

The difference between SM and sisters is that sisters have good synergies and SM don't. SM codex is so badly written that they're forced to play as AM and of course you need guardsmen as allies then.

SM shouldn't be more tough, they should be more effective, simple. Take the comparison between meganobz and termies: they're not that different but meganobz are considered good and maybe even competitive, while termies are garbage. Why? Because termies don't work with a typical SM list, that's it.

Martel732 wrote:
Sisters work. Marines don't. Make marines more like sisters.

Sisters 'work' in the sense that sisters players expect their units to be wiped out and don't have any expectations of durability. The 3+ save is just there to make the opponent waste more of their resources removing them before the next expendable squad of meltaguns rolls up.

 Blackie wrote:
This, sisters do work only because they can fire twice with many units for free, without investing CPs.

Sisters have three ways of generating additional acts of faith:
1) Spend CP to roll a dice to shoot with a unit after a character has been killed.
2) Spend 40 points on an infantry model. Flip a coin each round to shoot again - typically with 40pts of heavy bolters.
3) Spend 200+ points on celestine

A.T. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sisters work. Marines don't. Make marines more like sisters.

Sisters 'work' in the sense that sisters players expect their units to be wiped out and don't have any expectations of durability. The 3+ save is just there to make the opponent waste more of their resources removing them before the next expendable squad of meltaguns rolls up.

 Blackie wrote:
This, sisters do work only because they can fire twice with many units for free, without investing CPs.

Sisters have three ways of generating additional acts of faith:
1) Spend CP to roll a dice to shoot with a unit after a character has been killed.
2) Spend 40 points on an infantry model. Flip a coin each round to shoot again - typically with 40pts of heavy bolters.
3) Spend 200+ points on celestine

1) Effective way to use a CP, remember that sisters can easily field a brigade. With 5+ squishy and cheap characters.
2) 40 points that buff a lot shooty units like retributors and help fielding the brigade? Big deal.
3) Superhero that you may want anyway. Some other factions even take her as allied.

 Blackie wrote:
1) Effective way to use a CP, remember that sisters can easily field a brigade. With 5+ squishy and cheap characters.

The point is that it's neither free nor without the investment of CPs - which was your assertion. I feel that sisters are being over-egged here to downplay marines by comparison.

But by all means take a shot at an event with that. The minimum brigade with celestine (no gemini) will set you back 965 points plus another 1035 for meltaguns, combi-meltas, heavy bolters, and 3 repressors
66 t3 infantry models. 2000pts.

A.T. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
1) Effective way to use a CP, remember that sisters can easily field a brigade. With 5+ squishy and cheap characters.

The point is that it's neither free nor without the investment of CPs - which was your assertion. I feel that sisters are being over-egged here to downplay marines by comparison.

I said that sisters can fire twice without using CPs. This example is a way of firing twice using a CP but Act Of Faith can be triggered in other ways. Imagifiers are not free? Of course but they're very cheap brigade filler you may want anyway even without their special rule about triggering Acts of Faith since CPs are needed and other elites are not worth taking in a competitive game. As a sisters player I really enjoy the army, even without the codex. They're not overpowered but definitely effective in any real meta.

I've always liked the idea of certain tough things like power armour ignoring one or two points of AP modifier. It's like being in cover in the open. It also makes -1 AP on bolters more attractive as an option, since it doesn't have a knock-on effect against power armour or Terminator armour if they ignore that -1.

I wonder what the following changes for Marines would do to the game - these aren't tightly fleshed out, just kinda throwing it out there:

-Tac bodies cost 10ppm, boltguns cost 1ppm (11ppm tacs/devs, 10ppm ASM)
-All Battle Brothers are A2
-Rhinos are 40ppm, Drop Pods are 50ppm

Bharring wrote:
I wonder what the following changes for Marines would do to the game - these aren't tightly fleshed out, just kinda throwing it out there:

-Tac bodies cost 10ppm, boltguns cost 1ppm (11ppm tacs/devs, 10ppm ASM)
-All Battle Brothers are A2
-Rhinos are 40ppm, Drop Pods are 50ppm

40 PPM Rhinos are insane. They're Dedicated Transports, so you can take as many as you want, and that's 11 T7 wounds for 40 points. People complain about 4 PPM Guardsmen, and they're T3 5+.

Rhinos are fine; the contents suck.

The point is, if you could have a (more reasonably costed) Marine that had a lot more mobility options - even if not directly on it's stat line - would that change things?

Martel732 wrote:
Rhinos are fine; the contents suck.

Rhinos are bad since they don't have fire points.

Bharring wrote:
The point is, if you could have a (more reasonably costed) Marine that had a lot more mobility options - even if not directly on it's stat line - would that change things?

No. Not really. You are still transporting pure trash. With no fire points to boot. People will just bring more empty rhinos to screen cc characters.

And with no actually changes to rules and/or stat, there is no "reasonable" cost for Marines. At 13ppm they are just overcosted. At 11ppm they are a bit better, but still not great. At 9ppm, they are probably worth their cost, but now you have a unit that is cheaper than other options that they are SUPPOSED to be better than.

The only "fix" that will make MEQs appropriate is a 1-2 punch of points decrease AND some kind of rule change/special ability.

Personally, I'd like to see Marines (and Chaos Marines) go down to 11ppm and have "Exploding Rounds", where Bolter weapons cause 2 wounds per each 6 to Wound. Not Damage 2, but 2 separate D1 wounds.

Although, if I had a time machine and could directly influence GW, I would have given all MEQs the Primaris Statline from the start of 8th and make the Primaris line just improved armour with T5 and different equipment (Bolt Rifles, etc) but NOT all new Marines.

Points changes won't help them because they're not just an abstract cost to effectiveness ratio, they're Space Marines, and that means a lot to people. The same goes for many things in 40k (other games aside); Carnifexes being 5ppm would make them overpowered but it wouldn't make them play the way people want them to. I'd much rather pay for an overcosted unit that performs the way it should.

But at what point does it impact whether "the other guy" can play his army the way he *it* should?

So Marines should beat Guardsmen in a firefight. 1-to-1 definitely. What Guard does well is bringing a bucket of doods to the firefight, and drowning their enemy in numbers. So if Marines go up against a bucket of Guardsmen, do Marines remove a bucket of Guardsmen, or do Guardsmen drown Marines in bodies?

Marines are super elite. Aspect Warriors are super elite. If you want Marines to be elite, the thought is that lowly things like Aspect Warriors shouldn't be able to stand up to them. So to make marines feel the way they should, Aspect Warriors need to be less elite than Marines. To make Aspect Warriors feel the way they should, Marines need to not be more elite than Aspect Warriors. So how do you make both play how they should?

Trying to make multiple armies play how they "should" is difficult. Marines are Super Soldiers. But they're going up against Super-numerous armies, Super-durable armies, Super-spaceelfninjasamurai armies, and Super-soccer hooligan armies. If you lose the context of the other side's Super, you either don't feel like Super Soldiers or you destroy the other side's concept.

Theres nothing super about being mowed down by dissy cannons like chaff. Marines are so far from being even effective that I don't think this is a real worry.

Also, deep strike rules stop marines from physically getting to back lines. So the big guns are immortal too.

I think I'd Rather a T8 rhino that was more expensive

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rhinos are fine; the contents suck.

Rhinos are bad since they don't have fire points.

Don't they work fine with some chaos assault oriented units? Just give some punch in combat to marines as well.

Last time I faced rhino berserkers, it was not impressive. Turns out if you deal 5 W to each rhino, they are back to moving 6".

Martel732 wrote:
Last time I faced rhino berserkers, it was not impressive. Turns out if you deal 5 W to each rhino, they are back to moving 6".

Best berserker Rhino tactic I have heard of - charge up the table, fire combi plasma at the hardest to hit target getting between -1 and -3 to hit. Re-roll if necessary. Get a 1, explode, release berserkers who charge

Yes. They weren't doing that, though.

Rhinos aren't unique in this regard. They are crap. Just like devilfish/chimeras/ ect are crap. They aren't worth half their points. Then comes the problem if you make them that cheap. They becomes too cheap for the amount of disruption they cause.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Last time I faced rhino berserkers, it was not impressive. Turns out if you deal 5 W to each rhino, they are back to moving 6".

Best berserker Rhino tactic I have heard of - charge up the table, fire combi plasma at the hardest to hit target getting between -1 and -3 to hit. Re-roll if necessary. Get a 1, explode, release berserkers who charge

I think you'll be surprised how much that doesn't work.

Illegal or just sucks?

Martel732 wrote:
Illegal or just sucks?

It's perfectly legal - just taking advantage of the dumbest rule in the game. Overcharge plasma slaying a 10 wound vehical on a single 1. Shooting at a flyer with double tap puts you at about a 50% chance to blow yourself up.

Why Overcharging plasma slays the bearer outright on a 1, rather than just doing 1MW, I'll never understand.

 Galef wrote:
Why Overcharging plasma slays the bearer outright on a 1, rather than just doing 1MW, I'll never understand.

You and me both.

And for a vehicle?

Alex_85 wrote:
And for a vehicle?

Are you referring to Plasma guns? Yes 1MW would make much more sense. Plasma Cannons already just do d3MWs to a vehicle instead of slaying it outright

-

 Galef wrote:
Why Overcharging plasma slays the bearer outright on a 1, rather than just doing 1MW, I'll never understand.

Vain attempt at mking them less broken?