Was Horus' fall poorly written?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Onething123456**

As someone said, Horus' fall was about as good as Anakin's fall.

**timetowaste85**

Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.

I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.

And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.

And? That has nothing to do with what I just said. If I compare apples to oranges, your response shouldn't be "cheese".

**Onething123456**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.

Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.

Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.

I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.

And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.

And? That has nothing to do with what I just said. If I compare apples to oranges, your response shouldn't be "cheese".

I thought you were implying Horus only joined Chaos because of the vision Erebus showed him where he is forgotten.

**timetowaste85**

Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.

This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.

**Onething123456**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.

This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.

This thread is about Horus' fall, so I thought it would have something to do with it.

Anyway, carry on and talk to the other guys.

**Grimskul**

Onething123456 wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:
Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.

This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.

This thread is about Horus' fall, so I thought it would have something to do with it.

Anyway, carry on and talk to the other guys.

Then why did you quote him if you didn't even bother to read what his response was about? You can't just respond to people tangentially and not expect people to get confused or upset since you're basically wasting their time.

Remember, this forum is NOT a chatroom, it's not an echo chamber either for you to hear yourself talk (in which case, why bother posting?).

As far as Horus' fall, it's main issue is that they rushed it, and once they figured out they could milk the series, only then did they start adding more context to Horus turning over time, rather than the other way around.

**Onething123456**

Horus joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium is the only reason he joined, even though he knew Erebus was lying about everything else.

Bye.

**Crimson**

Onething123456 wrote:
As someone said, Horus' fall was about as good as Anakin's fall.

So mindbogglingly terrible.

**Onething123456**

Crimson wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
As someone said, Horus' fall was about as good as Anakin's fall.

So mindbogglingly terrible.

Most things in the Horus Heresy books are poorly written. Duskweaver tells me he loves some of the concepts in it and even the Perpetuals as a concept, but not the execution.

ADB and Dan Abnett have written good books, even good HH books, but most of the writing in the Horus Heresy books is poor.

Like the Emperor being hypocritical when he tells Uriah Olathire in Tales of Heresy about the conquest of Crusaders and then goes on to ask planets to join the Imperium or conquer them and slaughter any military forces on the planets, and force planets to join the Imperium.

**Marshal Loss**

Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.

**Onething123456**

Marshal Loss wrote:
Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.

As I said before, Horus did not believe most of what Erebus said about the Emperor (and he had doubts about the rest of what Erebus said) and only joined Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten.

So, yes.

**Grimskul**

Onething123456 wrote:
Marshal Loss wrote:
Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.

As I said before, Horus did not believe most of what Erebus said about the Emperor (and he had doubts about the rest of what Erebus said) and only joined Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten.

So, yes.

...If you've said it before, why do you keep repeating it? He wasn't even quoting you directly.

You're not adding anything more to conversation, do you talk to people IRL this way?

**Onething123456**

I hope BL tries to fix the pile of crap that is Horus' fall.

**Brutus_Apex**

I would agree that Horus's fall was poorly written.

Personally, I would have liked them to allude to the fact that he may have had a close personal relationship with one of the 2 destroyed legions. When the Emperor decided that those legions needed to be destroyed, he disagreed with the Emperor, but in the end let it happen. This eats away at his conscience, thinking that he could have done something more to defend his brother. When he sees this happening again with Lorgar and Magnus, he snaps and goes to his brother's aid, only to find out that Lorgar is already lost to Chaos, but by then it's too late.

Thats my take.

**Andykp**

The problem with horuss fall is the same problem with the whole series. It is so much about father/son issues. In fact all about them. It’s so overly simplified. Much better when horus was the emperors closest friend and best general. Makes it all a lot less emo and one dimensional. In the end they are all the same really (the primarchs).

**BobtheInquisitor**

Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.

**nareik**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.

He loved that thing more than his own children!

**Voss**

Marshal Loss wrote:
Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.

There isn't anything particularly tragic about somehow who chooses to kill trillions and betray people who trusted him.
He voluntarily made himself a puppet.

Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

**w1zard**

Voss wrote:
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.

Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.

Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.

This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.

**Arachnofiend**

Voss wrote:
Marshal Loss wrote:
Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.

There isn't anything particularly tragic about somehow who chooses to kill trillions and betray people who trusted him.
He voluntarily made himself a puppet.

Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

Fulgrim and Angron are sad. Tragedy, in a literary sense, requires a fall of the character's own making. If the ending isn't a natural conclusion of the hero's choices then it isn't tragedy, it's just shock.

**Voss**

w1zard wrote:
Voss wrote:
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.
.

Angron really didn't. He got pulled out of getting killed against his will (by the Emperor) and ultimately had daemonhood pinned on him unawares through Lorgar's choices.

Whether he even comprehended what was going on between those two points is debatable.

Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.

----
Archanofiend, that isn't a very useful definition. These are universally background characters, not heroes, and by and large they don't make choices at all. The universe/the writing/chaos just happens AT them. Loken, Garro, various historians and other individual Astartes (who probably have names) are the heroes of these stories and the ones making anything resembling a meaningful choice. The primarchs generally just consult the script and wordlessly accept it in lieu of motivation.

**HoundsofDemos**

w1zard wrote:
Voss wrote:
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.

Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.

Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.

This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.

Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.

**AnomanderRake**

The comparisons to Anakin Skywalker earlier up the thread seem apt to me; the problem with both him and Horus was that we never got to see enough pre-fall to emphathize with the reasons behind the fall. Anakin was the whiny little s***head everyone hated in Phantom Menace, and then the deliverer of some of the worst dialogue ever written in Attack of the Clones, and by the time we got around to the massacring civilians it doesn't seem particularly tragic; we don't get that "oh-how-the-mighty-have-fallen" sense because the character was never particularly "mighty" in the first place. Similarly with Horus the first trilogy doesn't focus on him at all; we only get his viewpoint when he's in his visions on Davin, and before that we only see him from a distance while other characters gush about how cool he is.

I don't think Horus' fall was badly written per se; in this case it feels like they're pandering too much to the fanbase, taking Horus' character/personality beforehand as a given that they don't really need to touch on so they can skip ahead to the "heresy" bit because we've all accepted it over years and years of reading the lore. It might have worked better if we'd gotten a bit more Great Crusade and pre-fall Horus before jumping straight into Davin, and there are bits and peices of pre-fall Horus in flashbacks in other novels that have certainly helped (like the conversations between Horus and Sanguinius in Fear to Tread about the Red Thirst, which do a lot to set up the underlying anxiety/fear about being judged unfit and purged, and Horus' willingness to defy the Emperor (or in this case keep secrets) for reasons of principle), but spreading information out that much creates this sort of comic-book-universe-like quality of "this doesn't make sense unless you've read five other books that set it up more effectively".

Perhaps the Horus Heresy, like Star Wars, would benefit from being cut up and stitched back together in a more sensible order to make it make sense as you read the novels instead of not making that much sense and then five books later getting a flashback that makes you go "Oh, that's what's going on."

**Azreal13**

Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.

There's is plenty written about Perturabo. Essentially he was a truly gifted artisan, capable of making intricate machines of incredible complexity, but was only ever known and used as an unsubtle hammer to break sieges.

It was the resentment of being unable to express himself fully, alongside with the expectation that his Legion would simply do the dirty work with, he felt, no appreciation of the skill or sacrifice that it took, that formed the seed of his fall.

**w1zard**

Voss wrote:
Angron really didn't. He got pulled out of getting killed against his will (by the Emperor) and ultimately had daemonhood pinned on him unawares through Lorgar's choices.

Whether he even comprehended what was going on between those two points is debatable.

Angron chose to turn traitor before he was ascended by Lorgar. Ironically, Lorgar forced that ascension on him to save his life. Also, ironically, the emperor teleported Angron away to save his life.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.

Oh I didn't say it wasn't TRAGIC, I just said he made a conscious decision to betray the emperor, knowing full well what it meant.

Voss wrote:
Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.

Read Angel Exterminatus if you haven't, it gives a really good insight into why Perturabo turned.

**nareik**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Voss wrote:
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.

IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.

Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.

Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.

This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.

Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.

We've all had that brush we love and at the end of its life tell ourselves "I guess it's still good for dry brushing" when in truth it is beyond even pushing textured paint around bases.

**Andykp**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.

They are now in the 42nd/41st ,illenium. In the setting of the series they are very much different shades of angry at your dad or desperate for attention off daddy issues.

**AndrewGPaul**

Until False Gods was published in 2009, the following short text was all we knew about Horus' fall. It was published in 1st edition Space Marine in 1989 and went out of print in 1991 when the 2nd edition of the game was released:

in Space Marine, Games Workshop wrote:The adjutant came smartly to attention before the vast wooden desk.
"The local representatives are outside, my lord Warmaster" The Warmaster nodded once, without looking up from the stack of reports.
"Thank you, Bejaind. Make them comfortable and tell them I shall join them directly." Bejaind cleared his throat nervously. "Permission to speak freely... my lord?" This time, the Warmaster looked up. The adjutant tried to hold his ice-blue gaze, and failed.
"I know, Bejaind." said the Warmaster "You're not happy about this warrior lodge initiation.""So soon after your illness, my lord..." "From which I am fully recovered. I had the Apothacaria of five Space Marine chapters fighting for the honor of healing me. I've been back to full duties for a week now, with no ill-effects. Your concern is touching, but unnecessary." Bejaind shuffled uncomfortably.
"But, my lord, we don't know what's involved..."
"I have a reasonable idea. A little pain, to be endured without crying out; duels with a range of primitive weapons; trials of strength and speed; a few primitive rituals -little different from mystic warrior lodges in any other feral-world culture. You know Imperial policy; establish ties which can be exploited in later recruitment."
He paused.“This really is bothering you, isn't it?"
The adjutant tried to meet his gaze, and failed again.
“Listen, Bejaind. You are an outstanding staff officer; and I value your loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."
"My lord, I.."
The Warmaster rose abruptly."Enough."
His voice was softer; more dangerous. "I am Horus, General and Warmaster. The first soldier of the Imperium, subordinate only to the Emperor himself. Shall it be said that Horus ran away from a hutfulof savages?"
Bejaind struggled for words."My lord... I have had - dreams..."His distress was genuine. Horus laid a hand on his shoulder
"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then, perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good.Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"
Bejaind swallowed hard. "No, my lord."
"Well, then." Horus patted his shoulder gently.
"Go now, and we'll say no more. Meanwhile, I must meet the Elders of the Knife of Stone."
And in the warp, something smiled.

That's all. Hubris and ignorance, in one sentence of dialogue. And I still prefer it to all of False Gods.

**Onething123456**

Some other lore in 1st Edition talks about Horus' fall, but 1st Edition is outdated.

**AndrewGPaul**

So what? I still like it better than the current writing.

Which is what this thread is about, is it not? The quality of the prose, not whether it's "current".

I made no comment as to whether the novels are "correct" or not, after all.