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Carlovonsexron wrote: The Custodes codex IIRC says they maxe sure all the astartes chapters accepted Primaris.
Absolute statements mean little when you talk about a setting of the scale that 40k is. Plus, a lot of the lore has an definite "unreliable narrator" spin to it, and can't be fully trusted.
I must admit (and almost certainly read into it wrong), I got a bit excited when he started talking about Primaris getting comfortable and starting to inherit chapter styles and adopt their own looks again in the future. Would love to see proper Blood Angel Primaris.
Tiberius501 wrote: I must admit (and almost certainly read into it wrong), I got a bit excited when he started talking about Primaris getting comfortable and starting to inherit chapter styles and adopt their own looks again in the future. Would love to see proper Blood Angel Primaris.
Yodhrin wrote: Ah but see, that's the thing - loads of us complained about Centurions. And Chibi-Hawks. And loads of other stuff. But once we got over them wasting development resources and a release slot on some pretty wonky models...we could just ignore them. You could just say your chapter doesn't use them, or your company from Named Chapter X doesn't, or just ignore their existence entirely. Primaris though? What was done to insert them and the way they were inserted are not ignorable, they form a hard line that you either step across and accept them, or refuse to step across and get "left behind" now GW have moved from developing a setting to producing an ongoing plot. You can't say your chapter doesn't use them, because GW wrote that possibility out of existence with Our Spiritual Liege's Primaris Magical Mystery Tour, with special guest appearance by the Bananamen Messengers - everybody uses Primaris. You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...). And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs. Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.
If they'd introduced Primaris in the old way, I'm sure lots of folk would have complained, but eventually most folk who felt that way would just ignore them, or fall back to occasional jokes at their expense.
You can just cherry pick the fluff you want, and adapt around it however you like. 40k lore is one of the loosest there is. For example, the rift didn't destroy that system, it warped space around it and shifted it a bit. Or it is in the warp, but only right on the surface, so you get daemon invasions but enough that can be defended against. Your chapter doesn't have primaris because they weren't reachable by storms, or records were lost in a fire, or the ships were attacked en route.
In 40k you can reason almost anything with about a minutes though. My favourite is "administrative error", as it can explain anything! I'm almost tempted to ask for challenges of things to explain. Of course, it is a lot easier when you are working at the edges. Trying to fluff Guilliman turning to chaos and then go get killed on the Tau homeworld is a bit of a stretch.
Or, I can just ignore all of it and continue playing the good setting I already like - 40K - rather than spending all of my time rewriting all my own stuff because of GW's changes. And continue doing that indefinitely, because they're clearly committed to an ongoing, galaxy-affecting plot now.
Besides which, some of those explanations wouldn't work because GW didn't leave room for them to work. Every chapter uses Primaris. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions, they were *all* visited by or communicated to by Rowboat and a Custodian with a personal message from Papa Corpsicle commanding they obey. In order to have a chapter so isolated that Rowboat couldn't even get them on the phone over the course of a century long crusade that toddled about all over the Galaxy, they would have to be pee-drinking recluses living out in the Halo Stars never leaving their homeworld, and never interact with the Imperium proper again(because if they did, they'd be contacted by Rowboat and "gifted" Primaris). Plus if you like the actual named chapters, forgeddit. And if a planet is right in the rift, then it's done for, basically a daemon world like the ones the older material described in the Eye of Terror - warped realities, whims of gods, rampant mutation etc etc.
The strength of 40Kwas that it was loose and ambiguous, and that GW rarely told stories in the setting that were both "present day" and had major consequences beyond the immediate location; the former is only true now insofar as the old background continues to exist until directly contradicted, but the latter is firmly out the window - the timeline has advanced into "not-41K" and will keep advancing, and they're going to keep introducing big, galaxy-shifting events in order to justify releasing stuff like Primarchs.
Now you know how us squat players felt back in the day. GW just pissed all over the lore and now we just had to accept it. time to play in the pre 42nd millennium established timeline before primaris and gorks grin.
BTW, I like my primaris but I will always have my RTB-01 to remind others of previous changes to "insert term here".
back on topic, I really enjoyed the voxcast and Jes' insights into the thought process behind a revamp/new range. My ynarri are very hopeful after a few comments he made.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The Custodes codex IIRC says they maxe sure all the astartes chapters accepted Primaris.
Which sounds like a fun fluff-justification for a Marines vs. Custodes match, nothing more.
You're not getting it. The Custodes 'dex states that they made sure - past tense - that all Chapters accepted them, by telling them it was a straight-up order from Him on Earth. It happened already, off-screen, during the century long screenwipe of the Indomitus Crusade, no ifs no buts no maybes no holdouts. And since it is now the firmly established status quo, isolation only works as a way to avoid it if that isolation is permanent, because as soon as your isolated homebrew made contact with the Imperium again their choices would be A; go along with the new status quo, or B; refuse a direct command from the Emperor Himself, delivered by His annointed guardian-messengers at the request of his reborn Primarch son, at which point they're renegades for however long it takes Rowboat to send one of his newly minted Chapters of enforcers to wipe them out.
GW have decided everyone gets Primaris, and they have written the background surrounding their introduction in such a way that it brooks no argument or exception - this is not the usual unreliable narrator/myths and legends/different points of view style of GW fluff, it's an in-setting settled fact. Hence why some of us are pissy about it.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Surely you can just not use Primaris if they bother you so much? The marine model range is still by far the biggest there is. There may not be any more non-primaris releases going forward but I'd bet that the existing range won't be squatted for a good number of years. Plus there's probably millions of marine models available on the secondary market. Nobody's saying you need to have Primaris in your army.
Yodhrin wrote: You're not getting it. The Custodes 'dex states that they made sure - past tense - that all Chapters accepted them, by telling them it was a straight-up order from Him on Earth.
I'm not seeing it that way, i'm seeing wiggle room in the statements in that book. For example:
...even the most traditional Chapters accepted the Primaris warriors...
This parts states that some reticent chapters accepted the Primaris, but doesn't state that they all did. Is there an example that states that _all_ chapters received emissaries and that they all accepted? Even with a definitive statement like that, there would still be ways to work around it. The Imperium is a gargantuan, ungovernable entity at the best of times. With the upheaval of the current situation, I think it almost impossible that a single chapter was not forgotten about or missed.
Yodhrin wrote: You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...).
Yup, and that's why, in Vigilus campaign, all formations (which are supposed to represent forces fighting on the planet) are all full of primaris.
Oh, wait, they are not, and in fact vast majority of formations is in fact completely primaris-free, save for Crimson Fists and generic formation for Ultima founding, all-primaris chapters. Even Ultramarines have next to none of them in their own, save for two (not very good) new HG primaris, which is kinda weird for "everyone everywhere has them" thing. Did Calgar forgot to read the memo or something?
And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs.
The process that three years later still failed to bring second one, to the point none are even rumored besides from usual always-wrong clickbaiters? That one?
Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.
Virtually all chapters that had home world swallowed by warp storm in the past, which is at least a few dozen, simply became fleet based using their existing assets after they evacuated. Mind if I ask why this very simple, repeated over and over in canon for the past three decades solution is so unacceptable?
AndrewGPaul wrote: is it worth getting "pissy" over, when you can just ignore it? It's only an issue if one of your group has the Custodes book, after all.
Take it from a Necron player, there's no way of going back no matter how hard you try. GW will keep reminding you, new players that don't know better will keep reminding you. New models and rules will only reflect the new thing and unless you are willing to move closer to the new thing and away from the old, you will be left behind and there won't be a game for you to play anymore.
No amount of invoking the power of one's imagination will change that.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Yodhrin wrote: Ah but see, that's the thing - loads of us complained about Centurions. And Chibi-Hawks. And loads of other stuff. But once we got over them wasting development resources and a release slot on some pretty wonky models...we could just ignore them. You could just say your chapter doesn't use them, or your company from Named Chapter X doesn't, or just ignore their existence entirely. Primaris though? What was done to insert them and the way they were inserted are not ignorable, they form a hard line that you either step across and accept them, or refuse to step across and get "left behind" now GW have moved from developing a setting to producing an ongoing plot. You can't say your chapter doesn't use them, because GW wrote that possibility out of existence with Our Spiritual Liege's Primaris Magical Mystery Tour, with special guest appearance by the Bananamen Messengers - everybody uses Primaris. You can't say your company doesn't use them, because the Mystery Tour was also written as including a rewrite of the Codex so all companies have them(even apparently in chapters that don't follow the codex, somehow...). And you certainly can't ignore them, because in order to meet that "new, separate, but also everywhere" standard, they tore the galaxy in half and shifted the tone of the whole IP by beginning the process of bringing back loyalist Primarchs. Heck one of the homebrew chapters I did was basically wiped out "off screen" by GW's changes, because the entire sector they primarily operated in is just gone, swallowed up by the rift.
If they'd introduced Primaris in the old way, I'm sure lots of folk would have complained, but eventually most folk who felt that way would just ignore them, or fall back to occasional jokes at their expense.
You can just cherry pick the fluff you want, and adapt around it however you like. 40k lore is one of the loosest there is. For example, the rift didn't destroy that system, it warped space around it and shifted it a bit. Or it is in the warp, but only right on the surface, so you get daemon invasions but enough that can be defended against. Your chapter doesn't have primaris because they weren't reachable by storms, or records were lost in a fire, or the ships were attacked en route.
In 40k you can reason almost anything with about a minutes though. My favourite is "administrative error", as it can explain anything! I'm almost tempted to ask for challenges of things to explain. Of course, it is a lot easier when you are working at the edges. Trying to fluff Guilliman turning to chaos and then go get killed on the Tau homeworld is a bit of a stretch.
Or, I can just ignore all of it and continue playing the good setting I already like - 40K - rather than spending all of my time rewriting all my own stuff because of GW's changes. And continue doing that indefinitely, because they're clearly committed to an ongoing, galaxy-affecting plot now.
Besides which, some of those explanations wouldn't work because GW didn't leave room for them to work. Every chapter uses Primaris. All of them. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions, they were *all* visited by or communicated to by Rowboat and a Custodian with a personal message from Papa Corpsicle commanding they obey. In order to have a chapter so isolated that Rowboat couldn't even get them on the phone over the course of a century long crusade that toddled about all over the Galaxy, they would have to be pee-drinking recluses living out in the Halo Stars never leaving their homeworld, and never interact with the Imperium proper again(because if they did, they'd be contacted by Rowboat and "gifted" Primaris). Plus if you like the actual named chapters, forgeddit. And if a planet is right in the rift, then it's done for, basically a daemon world like the ones the older material described in the Eye of Terror - warped realities, whims of gods, rampant mutation etc etc.
The strength of 40Kwas that it was loose and ambiguous, and that GW rarely told stories in the setting that were both "present day" and had major consequences beyond the immediate location; the former is only true now insofar as the old background continues to exist until directly contradicted, but the latter is firmly out the window - the timeline has advanced into "not-41K" and will keep advancing, and they're going to keep introducing big, galaxy-shifting events in order to justify releasing stuff like Primarchs.
...Uh just say that fighting force in particular wasn't supplemented with Primaris or they died letting them escape to fight another day.
You're overcomplicating a problem you created in your own head.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
BrookM wrote: Can we get back onto the topic of the podcast please
By all means.
I hope they get in some of the rule book and story book artists in future episodes. As this first episode has shown, there's back and forth between concept art, game art, the models themselves. I should like to hear about that creation process. Do they put models on their desk as they work? What medium do they work in and how? Where did that inspiration come from? And so on.
There was a time when the artwork got a bit lean until more recent rule book editions. Now almost every book is packed with some new full page art, maps, smaller illustrations and even detailed page border iconography; somewhat reminiscent of the first edition RT book. All of it gives the reader a deeper understanding to the game setting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm not entirely sure who Yod's replying to?
drbored didn't label me as anything untoward.
drbored wrote: I get what you're saying, and if the Warhammer Community site and videos and podcasts were the only place someone was getting their information, then maybe that might not be for the best in the long-run because you don't really end up with a serious dialogue on how to improve facets of the games/company.
But, I think many hobbyists get their information from plenty of sources (facebook groups, hobby forums, or just chatting with their local friends), and having the company itself put out informative material is nice, especially when it's design/hobby related like this podcast with Jes. It was interesting to get his insight, as rose-tinted as it might be. You take this, as you should any news from the mouth of any company, with a grain of salt.
My hope is that as they continue, more of that positivity will leak into other places, like these forums, and people won't make such incredible knee-jerk world-is-ending reactions to every little thing that comes out of this company. The more we can discuss things like adults, the better.
Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Multiple sources and all that.
I guess my real issue with this is the main issue I have with pretty much everything GW does (except their prices): They never go far enough for my tastes. They always seem to be holding back and wasting the potential they have. I always see them as a company that could be doing better and bolder things. It's always one big step forward, then a diagonal step to the side, then five little steps back as if what they saw during the step forward frightened them.
I agree with you there. From my perspective, it seems like their priorities when it comes to giving us new models is completely skewed. They shove Primaris and Nurgle down our throats for two years straight and expect that to be ok, but then roll their eyes when we're upset that Space Wolves or Orks didn't get more with their release, or try to pretend like the current state of Khorne Berzerkers, Eldar Aspect Warriors, and other ancient kits is just fine when they're being out-scaled by new releases. It seems like we have big expectations for every release that GW does and they tend to fall short of that. I've been particularly upset by all of these mono-pose releases. I'm worried that when Sisters of Battle finally get their plastics, they'll all be push-fit mono-pose models that look samey as soon as you have more than three of them, zero options for the Cannoness, and no 'generic' Living Saint model/rules. That seems to be the way they're going, anyway.
I always look to the stark differences between the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard releases. I wish they'd discuss this kind of change a bit more, because it does tie into the changes with Primaris minis vs regular Marine minis.
1KSons and DG had a (somewhat) mirrored release, with Death Guard getting more Clampacks/vehicles, but the infantry releases all had their equivalents. But then you look at the options you get:
Thousand Sons Marines are like every other Marine kit. They are built in a pretty standard way. Then look at the PlagueMarines. They only work with themselves. And that's before we even get to the fact there are only 7 of them for the price of 10, but that's a whole other issue...
You get a repeat of that with the 1KSons Terminators. Those are pretty normal for a Termy kit. Death Guard termies? Look atthese. Same problem.
And finally the big one. I mean is there any comparison between this kit, and then thesethreeminis. One is a Marine kit with tons of options and a wide variety of kit-bashing potential. The other is three clampack characters that somehow ended up in the same box.
Now I love the Deathguard minis from an aesthetic perspective, but from a technical perspective they are not a positive step for 40K. Like you, I worry what this means for Aspect Warriors and other older kits moving forward (mono-pose no-option Guardsmen...). It'd be nice to hear about this on something like a Podcast, but then we run into another of GW's phobias - revealing things ahead of time.
Yodhrin wrote: The strength of 40Kwas that it was loose and ambiguous, and that GW rarely told stories in the setting that were both "present day" and had major consequences beyond the immediate location; the former is only true now insofar as the old background continues to exist until directly contradicted, but the latter is firmly out the window - the timeline has advanced into "not-41K" and will keep advancing, and they're going to keep introducing big, galaxy-shifting events in order to justify releasing stuff like Primarchs.
I cannot exalt this enough. 40K's most defining strength was the setting, within which stories could be told. Now they're trying to turn it into an ongoing developing story. But I'll leave this be as Brook said to drop it.
I found it quite well presented and Jes is always good to listen too. I hope they sort out the audio levels for future episodes, it was a bit hard to hear him sometimes.
Also what happened to the last GW presenter.. what was her name.. Ceri? I know Rob left a while back.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
H.B.M.C. wrote: I always look to the stark differences between the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard releases. I wish they'd discuss this kind of change a bit more, because it does tie into the changes with Primaris minis vs regular Marine minis.
1KSons and DG had a (somewhat) mirrored release, with Death Guard getting more Clampacks/vehicles, but the infantry releases all had their equivalents. But then you look at the options you get:
Thousand Sons Marines are like every other Marine kit. They are built in a pretty standard way. Then look at the PlagueMarines. They only work with themselves. And that's before we even get to the fact there are only 7 of them for the price of 10, but that's a whole other issue...
You get a repeat of that with the 1KSons Terminators. Those are pretty normal for a Termy kit. Death Guard termies? Look atthese. Same problem.
And finally the big one. I mean is there any comparison between this kit, and then thesethreeminis. One is a Marine kit with tons of options and a wide variety of kit-bashing potential. The other is three clampack characters that somehow ended up in the same box.
Now I love the Deathguard minis from an aesthetic perspective, but from a technical perspective they are not a positive step for 40K. Like you, I worry what this means for Aspect Warriors and other older kits moving forward (mono-pose no-option Guardsmen...). It'd be nice to hear about this on something like a Podcast, but then we run into another of GW's phobias - revealing things ahead of time.
Oh yeah, this is totally a problem that I agree with. My local GW manager even claimed that the Exalted Sorcerer kit was the last of its kind that GW would make (it's kind being: multi-option, non mono-pose). Then we get these voxcasts and these guys will exalt the mono-pose miniatures like they're the hottest thing since sliced bread, despite fans railing against it.
The worst part? The voxcast revealed that they work on these things 4+ years in advance. Even if GW got the message that we DON'T want mono-pose models, it's likely that this is what we'll be stuck with for the next 3-4 years.
The Genestealer Cult models coming up with be revealing. We already know the Abominant and the Gunslinger have zero poseability or customization, but what about the bikes and the quad? What other models may come out that could have more options? The Fiends of Slaanesh at least look pretty promising with the different head and claw options that they have... but then we had the Ork release. Each buggy was so unique, which is cool... but if you wanted to run more than 1 of a certain type, good luck customizing those buggies to look properly different in a way that A. reveals what they're supposed to be, B. represents their weapons properly, and C. isn't called 'modeling for advantage' in any way. The Warboss on Trike? Zero customization, only one weapon loadout, etc.
But that's why I look at places like this, Facebook groups, and other stuff to figure out the actual temperature of the community, not just the Voxcast. If anything, I'm super happy that Jes revealed a bit about the design process. Now I know that if I complain to GW, they might make a change to their designs 4 years from now
Just listened to it and that was a great first episode. (the version on iTunes had great audio btw, no problems there)
It's going to be hard to top, Jes is a great guy, and it was very interesting. They mentioned several times that the initial Primaris release was only "the top of the iceberg", so there are definitely more things coming.
I definitely got the impression that the Primaris will eventually replace the standard marines though. I've got some mixed feelings there - the infantry models are great, but the Repulsor rubs me the wrong way, let's hope they have some more interesting Primaris vehicles in the pipeline.
I've long thought that with GW's drive to make everything plastic that they'd eventually "sculpt themselves into a corner" (so to speak) when it came to Marines. Once everything was plastic, where could they go other than remaking them again, or just inventing new things that were "always there, just off-camera"?
We saw the instant effects of this:
1. They did start remaking things again (the current Tac, Dev and Assault Squads being the best examples).
2. They did start making gak up (Chibi-Hawk, Centurions, Space Guppie, and so on).
Primaris, in a way, whilst not something I'd call the logical next step (there's nothing logical about completely altering your fluff to introduce super-duper-my-dad-can-kick-your-dad's-ass better-Marines), but probably the most extreme example of what happens when you've made everything in plastic already.
Sadly, at least from my perspective, they didn't actually reach the logical end point. Man I was hoping for a plastic Tech-Marine/Thunderfire/Servitor kit before all this Primaris stuff kicked off. Now we're never going to get another regular Marine kit again, so that's off the table.
NurglesR0T wrote: I found it quite well presented and Jes is always good to listen too. I hope they sort out the audio levels for future episodes, it was a bit hard to hear him sometimes.
Also what happened to the last GW presenter.. what was her name.. Ceri? I know Rob left a while back.
I wondered that too, and it was mentioned in the second Tales of four Heresy Warlords show on the Twitch channel a couple of months or so ago; she's apparently left GW, but I don't know where to. There's been a lot of shuffling around of the Warhammer TV staff; I don't remember seeing much of Martin, the (Northern?) Irish guy, and Wade Price and Adam Troke have moved from games design / management positions to presenting.
You can still find Ceri on Instagram an Twitter with her Handle purplemonkey790.
As far as I can tell Ceri works now at ZeroLatency VRUK... but she is still posting a lot AoS and WH40K related content on her instagramm page.
And additionally she seems to have started streaming on Twitch (www.twitch.tv/thehobbyroom) even though I did not have the chance to join so far due to vacation abroad...
My Element Games referal code: SVE5335
2018/12/24 14:34:22
Subject: Re:Voxcast: GW's Official 40k Podcast - Episode 2: Darren Latham Pg.3
I'm surprised he has an Instagram for his minis, I seem to remember him saying that GW weren't allowing them to do social medias with their stuff (seemed legit as Fildunn, Brokenblade etc all stopped posting around that time too).
It's only an issue if one of your group has the Custodes book, after all.
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