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Also SW can spam 3++ quite efficiently. WG on foot, on bike, on terminator armour and wulfen have 3++ for just 2pts. TWC still have the expensive ones but they're going to be fixed soon. Characters also can have 3++ and some of them even come with stock 4++. Dreads have 4++.

Pretty much the entire army barring troops and vehicles have good invulns

All the units that can have multiple loadouts are magnetized in my SW collection and I can field 20+ SS/SB.

It should be harder to field 20 grotesques or 18 harlequins bikes and yet at very competitive levels they do show up. Like those 5 stormravens back in the 2017 summer. Spamming SB/SS is way easier even in a full WYSIWYG meta.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh please, the 3++ spam only exists for Deathwatch, and you know darn well it'll be a while before they show up to a tournament as nobody has that many SB/SS models around.

You'd be surprised what motivated tournament players can cobble together through second hand purchases. I imagine we'll see at least two or three such lists at LVO and we'll get a real accounting of their strength.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Marines would kill to have such a transport.

And we orks would kill for many SM ranged weapons or loadout like 3++ invulns for 2pts. Not to mention the access to re-rolls.

To be honest I don't think SM would benefit that much from T8 transports with no shooting, it's basically the main reason why rhinos are avoided, despite being very good for their stats and points cost. Maybe they can make use of the naked T7 open topped model though, even if it's not that resilient at just T7 4+ save. They already have excellent platforms with a transport capacity of 16, the crusader and the big flyer.

1, I'm pretty sure the flyer only carries 10 or 12, not 16, and 2, both it and the crusader are so crazybonkers expensive that it's not even in the same league as the battlewagon. 3, open topped is a huge fething deal, it's an immensely flexible rule in 8th edition and the amount it's being waved off here is nuts to me. If I could take all the guns off a LRC, pay the same price for the chassis and run it open topped it would be in EVERY marine list I ever ran.

Open topped is amazing! of course not so much for orkz...you know....since we don't have any ranged shooting worth a damn that can ride in it. The only unit I can think that is decent at shooting and hides in the back of a battlewagon would be Flashgitz and they are overpriced and extremely short ranged.

Tankbustas would be good, but are only exceptional if you spend CP on them...something you can't do from a vehicle. Lootas are good in them....but they also require CP to be anything other than crap.

So for Space Marine armies and other armies with good shooting an open topped vehicle with T7 would be amazing, but for an army that has nothing but crap shooting, its nothing more than a small buff.

Imagine a rhino for orks, nobz would definitely love it over a trukk. 74 points for T7 3+ 4/8 shots at BS3+? Deal. Also units like wyches would definitely prefer it over a raider even if the skimmer is considered superior (and in fact it is) than a rhino.

Open topped for orks work only for two units, tankbustas and flash gitz. Both of them prefer a trukk over a BW. Lootas have long range and can exploit the grot shield stratagem better than anyone else because they just need to sit in a corner while it's harder to get the key positioning of shielding gretchins for units that want to be closer to the action.

You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

except nobz aren't that great right now anyway, boyz are still better on average vs most targets.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

except nobz aren't that great right now anyway, boyz are still better on average vs most targets.

Maybe point for point, but not model per model. You can't fit 10 tank busters and 20 boyz in a battlewagon. The nobs allow for better concentration of force.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

Nah, two trukks are more resilient than a single T7 wagon and also way more versatile as you can rush the melee unit of nobz and just find the best spot for the bustas trukk. BWs ONLY with the T8 upgrades, otherwise they're a waste of points. With trukks you can also fit the best loadout for both units which include ammo runts and bomb squigs, impossible to fit on a single BW.

Also SW can spam 3++ quite efficiently. WG on foot, on bike, on terminator armour and wulfen have 3++ for just 2pts. TWC still have the expensive ones but they're going to be fixed soon. Characters also can have 3++ and some of them even come with stock 4++. Dreads have 4++.

Pretty much the entire army barring troops and vehicles have good invulns

And yet I see them doing so well on the Tourney Scene. I guess if the platform is too expensive a cheap 3++ isn't enough.

Justyn wrote:

Also SW can spam 3++ quite efficiently. WG on foot, on bike, on terminator armour and wulfen have 3++ for just 2pts. TWC still have the expensive ones but they're going to be fixed soon. Characters also can have 3++ and some of them even come with stock 4++. Dreads have 4++.

Pretty much the entire army barring troops and vehicles have good invulns

And yet I see them doing so well on the Tourney Scene. I guess if the platform is too expensive a cheap 3++ isn't enough.

The problem is the soup here, not the platforms. AM and kights are so overpowered and undercosted that they're by far the best imperium units. Even if some SM units could be good they're not gonna be broken, hence they're out from the most competitive imperium lists. Time limitations also affect tournament lists quite significantly and low count armies performs even worse than in regular games as horde lists have a huge boost if the game actually lasts only 3 turns. In real metas things are very different, the tournament scene isn't the typical common 40k.

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

Nah, two trukks are more resilient than a single T7 wagon and also way more versatile as you can rush the melee unit of nobz and just find the best spot for the bustas trukk. BWs ONLY with the T8 upgrades, otherwise they're a waste of points. With trukks you can also fit the best loadout for both units which include ammo runts and bomb squigs, impossible to fit on a single BW.

A fair point, but it's also possible to bring Nobz, their grot screen, and support characters in a BW. A grot rigger is also pretty handy.

I'm not convinced that Nobs are bad and Orks I've seen have not had trouble with knights in the slightest.

So, three pages of this and everyone keeps ignoring how the LRBT can shoot 72" and a killkannon is only 24"? If that's not worth anything, let's limit all Astra Militarum guns to 24" and see how that goes.

Also, the gunwagon is not open topped and can't take a deff rolla. Because of that Gunwagons do not want to be near any front lines, while any passengers you would want to put into a closed transport do. The transport capacity might as well not exist.
Being able to fall back and shoot is part of the worst kulture in the codex and means losing any kind of competitive game since you basically decided to play without a kulture. Very few units are moving forward towards orks. My orks are blood axe, so believe my I have plenty of experience with that. I get to use the trait about once per game if I'm lucky.

Adding big shootas to any ork model makes it less efficient at shooting, so might as well not do it.

@Daedalus: Your math is taking into account the optimal kulture for the gunweagon, but no regiment bonus at all for the LRBT. You also ignored how almost every model in the game has an armor save for the comparison for heavy bolters vs big shootas. Still the LRBT comes out 15% ahead while costing less.

In general, the battlewagon(transport for shooty units) and the bonebreaker(transport for choppy units) seem to be properly costed (+-10) but suffer from knights existing like any heavy armor. The gunwagon which very much plays like a battletank is horribly overcosted for it's limited and short-ranged shooting and worthless transport capacity. It would be better at T7 with open topped and should not cost a single point more than a battlewagon. Who on earth thought that an additional shot from a 15 point gun was worth 20 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

Nah, two trukks are more resilient than a single T7 wagon and also way more versatile as you can rush the melee unit of nobz and just find the best spot for the bustas trukk. BWs ONLY with the T8 upgrades, otherwise they're a waste of points. With trukks you can also fit the best loadout for both units which include ammo runts and bomb squigs, impossible to fit on a single BW.

A fair point, but it's also possible to bring Nobz, their grot screen, and support characters in a BW. A grot rigger is also pretty handy.

I'm not convinced that Nobs are bad and Orks I've seen have not had trouble with knights in the slightest.

In my experience putting all that in one transport just means everything inside is dead by turn 2. Literally no army has trouble taking out 1-2 battlewagons per turn, meaning the wagon and everything that was inside. Wagon pops, then all passengers get gunned down by all non-anti-tank guns.
"Power-Armored nobz" sound awesome until you realize that they are just primaris at that point, which aren't that awesome either.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, three pages of this and everyone keeps ignoring how the LRBT can shoot 72" and a killkannon is only 24"? If that's not worth anything, let's limit all Astra Militarum guns to 24" and see how that goes.

Also, the gunwagon is not open topped and can't take a deff rolla. Because of that Gunwagons do not want to be near any front lines, while any passengers you would want to put into a closed transport do. The transport capacity might as well not exist.
Being able to fall back and shoot is part of the worst kulture in the codex and means losing any kind of competitive game since you basically decided to play without a kulture. Very few units are moving forward towards orks. My orks are blood axe, so believe my I have plenty of experience with that. I get to use the trait about once per game if I'm lucky.

Adding big shootas to any ork model makes it less efficient at shooting, so might as well not do it.

@Daedalus: Your math is taking into account the optimal kulture for the gunweagon, but no regiment bonus at all for the LRBT. You also ignored how almost every model in the game has an armor save for the comparison for heavy bolters vs big shootas. Still the LRBT comes out 15% ahead while costing less.

In general, the battlewagon(transport for shooty units) and the bonebreaker(transport for choppy units) seem to be properly costed (+-10) but suffer from knights existing like any heavy armor. The gunwagon which very much plays like a battletank is horribly overcosted for it's limited and short-ranged shooting and worthless transport capacity. It would be better at T7 with open topped and should not cost a single point more than a battlewagon. Who on earth thought that an additional shot from a 15 point gun was worth 20 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You don't need to fill it with TBs.

10 TBs and 10 Nobz. When the Nobz get out and make a wall that lets the TBs push up and get full rerolls to hit and wound (Deathskullz, anyway). If it blows up then you have power armor Nobz.

Nah, two trukks are more resilient than a single T7 wagon and also way more versatile as you can rush the melee unit of nobz and just find the best spot for the bustas trukk. BWs ONLY with the T8 upgrades, otherwise they're a waste of points. With trukks you can also fit the best loadout for both units which include ammo runts and bomb squigs, impossible to fit on a single BW.

A fair point, but it's also possible to bring Nobz, their grot screen, and support characters in a BW. A grot rigger is also pretty handy.

I'm not convinced that Nobs are bad and Orks I've seen have not had trouble with knights in the slightest.

In my experience putting all that in one transport just means everything inside is dead by turn 2. Literally no army has trouble taking out 1-2 battlewagons per turn, meaning the wagon and everything that was inside. Wagon pops, then all passengers get gunned down by all non-anti-tank guns.
"Power-Armored nobz" sound awesome until you realize that they are just primaris at that point, which aren't that awesome either.

Good points.

Also, the power armored nobz now cost more than a space marine, lack ranged firepower/leadership but are good in melee and have 2 wounds each instead of 1. If nobz came with a 3+ base than they would be worth taking at 15ppm, at 14ppm and 4+.....nah, they die to easy.

Nobz with a 3+ save are basically melee primaris which also cost 1 CP How good are primaris? Imagine melee ones

To be fair, nobz are a lot better than primaris. I just dislike the hyperbole of "they get power armor, which basically means they are invulnerable!". Especially when it comes from space marine players.

Lets not forget that the gunwagon has the added limitation of exploding on 4+.who would really risk having this in your army? It will probably explode on turn one and do d6 mortal wounds to the rest of your army. So to adapt you can deploy it alone on the flanks,but then it's short range guns become an issue... As much as I like the idea of a tank with a huge cannon the gun wagon is scizofrenic in it's abilities. Short range, slow if double tapping, transport, explodes, much dakka. How to use this monstrosity?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe if we telaport the gunwagon in (would this count as moving less than half? ) , unleash hell, strategem charge. Then if it dies in enemy turn let them suffer all the mortal wounds. Stuff it with nobz to cause more trouble after it dies?

To be worthy the killkannon should be something like 2D6 shots S10 AP-3 D6 range 36'' or 48'', not the crappy weapon that it currently is. Still not broken for a 160 points platform with BS5+ but at least legit to consider.

The gun wagon is designed to be a suicide vindicator. It trundles forward into your enemies assault troopers shooting, draws fire and explodes. I really think it is an entry for 'cinematic gamers'.

Quirky units tend to be slightly over pointed to avoid them moving from narrative plot hooks into spammed gimmicks.

Think of it as the bomb bearer Orc at Helms Deep.

eh.. comparing a BW to a LR is a bit off, different roles rules, strategems, etc.

I do think most of the LR variants are better than the BW variants for the points taken as a whole, but GW has always overvalued transport, but that does not mean LR are broken, they are good for the points sure, but not game breathtakingly so. The BW is pretty good, and can be worked into lists, but you need to use the transport capacity to make it worth it. throwing a tank busta squad realluy can make a BW pretty powerful, and 10 boys inside with nob and big choppa means if something is getting close you have a answer/deterant. late game those same boys can drop out of the BW and snag an objective.

are BW bash lists going to pull off surprise tournament victories like they did in 5th... no. but they can still be thrown into a list and do well.

I am curious what the Stompa would cost if it lost the transport capacity.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
eh.. comparing a BW to a LR is a bit off, different roles rules, strategems, etc.

I do think most of the LR variants are better than the BW variants for the points taken as a whole, but GW has always overvalued transport, but that does not mean LR are broken, they are good for the points sure, but not game breathtakingly so. The BW is pretty good, and can be worked into lists, but you need to use the transport capacity to make it worth it. throwing a tank busta squad realluy can make a BW pretty powerful, and 10 boys inside with nob and big choppa means if something is getting close you have a answer/deterant. late game those same boys can drop out of the BW and snag an objective.

are BW bash lists going to pull off surprise tournament victories like they did in 5th... no. but they can still be thrown into a list and do well.

I am curious what the Stompa would cost if it lost the transport capacity.

I compare it to the LR because they can both be T8 with decent saves and can serve as heavy support. BW's just suck as gunwagonz and I am honestly not found of the regular battlewagon, though I do love the Bonecrusha variant...just wish it was cheaper.


As for the stompa? well since GW seems to think Stompa's are amazing thanks to Reece....I don't know. Personally, I don't ever even consider their transport capacity because its useless in the extreme. At the moment I think a Stompa should be about 500pts maybe 600, take away that transport capacity and subtract 50pts or so I would guess. But anything more than 600 and its no longer competitive but still possible in for fun games, at 900+ its just a useless chunk of plastic collecting dust on the shelf. The fact that a 350-400pt knight is better in almost every way says it all.

A LR has a 2+ save an a lot of non-trivial shooting. The only gun worth putting on a battlewagon is the killkannon.

SemperMortis wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
eh.. comparing a BW to a LR is a bit off, different roles rules, strategems, etc.

I do think most of the LR variants are better than the BW variants for the points taken as a whole, but GW has always overvalued transport, but that does not mean LR are broken, they are good for the points sure, but not game breathtakingly so. The BW is pretty good, and can be worked into lists, but you need to use the transport capacity to make it worth it. throwing a tank busta squad realluy can make a BW pretty powerful, and 10 boys inside with nob and big choppa means if something is getting close you have a answer/deterant. late game those same boys can drop out of the BW and snag an objective.

are BW bash lists going to pull off surprise tournament victories like they did in 5th... no. but they can still be thrown into a list and do well.

I am curious what the Stompa would cost if it lost the transport capacity.

I compare it to the LR because they can both be T8 with decent saves and can serve as heavy support. BW's just suck as gunwagonz and I am honestly not found of the regular battlewagon, though I do love the Bonecrusha variant...just wish it was cheaper.


As for the stompa? well since GW seems to think Stompa's are amazing thanks to Reece....I don't know. Personally, I don't ever even consider their transport capacity because its useless in the extreme. At the moment I think a Stompa should be about 500pts maybe 600, take away that transport capacity and subtract 50pts or so I would guess. But anything more than 600 and its no longer competitive but still possible in for fun games, at 900+ its just a useless chunk of plastic collecting dust on the shelf. The fact that a 350-400pt knight is better in almost every way says it all.

I like my orks fast and up front. the majority of my ork army is bikers. but I do think the points difference is GW really overvaluing transport capacity this edition. look what they did with space marine drop pods. Eldar also feel this with the Falcon which is a pretty good tank but overcosted because it can hold 5 models.

Also the Xeno tax is real this edition (for non-eldar) it was more extreme at index where our obviously worse trukk cost what a much better rhino did and the space marine bike being just better in almsot every way cost the same as an ork biker. The ork codex blunted the tax but it still exists.

Honestly on the Stompa I hear a lot of pushback on it having 40 wounds, but when a normal knight has 24 wounds and a 5++ it effectively has 32 stompa equivilant wounds as the stompa does not get a 5++ and just has to eat all incoming wounds. I have put my stompa across from single knights before and it usually loses because it is crippled before it can ever reach close combat, the wound track on it is so bad, it slows down then starts degrqading weapons skill every 10 wounds. GW should at the very least have just given it 3 degrading stats at 40-25, 24-10, and 10-0. Against a Castellan 1v1 it died before ever reaching close combat and barely chipping the paint of the Castellan

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Oh please, the 3++ spam only exists for Deathwatch, and you know darn well it'll be a while before they show up to a tournament as nobody has that many SB/SS models around.

You'd be surprised what motivated tournament players can cobble together through second hand purchases. I imagine we'll see at least two or three such lists at LVO and we'll get a real accounting of their strength.

That's why I said a while. I'll give it until near the end of March before we start really seeing 3++ spam.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


Honestly on the Stompa I hear a lot of pushback on it having 40 wounds, but when a normal knight has 24 wounds and a 5++ it effectively has 32 stompa equivilant wounds as the stompa does not get a 5++ and just has to eat all incoming wounds. I have put my stompa across from single knights before and it usually loses because it is crippled before it can ever reach close combat, the wound track on it is so bad, it slows down then starts degrqading weapons skill every 10 wounds. GW should at the very least have just given it 3 degrading stats at 40-25, 24-10, and 10-0. Against a Castellan 1v1 it died before ever reaching close combat and barely chipping the paint of the Castellan

Yea... just taking a quick look at it's stats / cost, I'd start out giving it a better degrading statline, and Toughness 10, so to crack it open you need SERIOUS firepower, like Volcano Lances / Cannons, or Demolisher Cannons. For its points cost it needs to be much harder to kill.

I don't think anything you can reasonably take in a 2k game should be above T8. I don't know if there are any FW options in that range, but the fact they've restricted that in core GW is a very good move on my opinion.

Forcing your opponent to take niche weapons like Volcano Cannons (that some armies don't even have access to!) Is not the solution to improve durability.

Some FW T9 models but they are T9 in the 22-26 wound bracket 2+ save and are 700 to 1k points each. And are 1 per detachment due to relic rules.
T10 is jumping the shark and also is way out of charictor for ork vehicals.

I am not advocating T9 or T10 for the stompa. Maybe mke the larger gargants have a higher toughnes, I just want the points to match the model. As standing it is the most overpoints costed model 2 editions running (and it has never been good). Its actual value is below a castellan and above a bone stock knight, actual value would be around 500-550 points

The stompa should be 500ish points, the castellan 800ish.

Stompa is just the trash version of a weak knight so it must be a bit cheaper than the cheapest knight.

 Blackie wrote:
The stompa should be 500ish points, the castellan 800ish.

Stompa is just the trash version of a weak knight so it must be a bit cheaper than the cheapest knight.

A Stompa is not a trash version of a weak knight, it's got more weapons, self repairs D3 wounds per turn, has a transport capacity of 20, gives out a moral reroll, has more attacks at higher strength, benifits from err,we go, dakkax3 and clan cultures.
It might not be 900+ points but it's not 500 points or even close to 300 points it's 100points, (200 tops) overcosted A castellen is 700 points, without 4ppm guardsmen.

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The stompa should be 500ish points, the castellan 800ish.

Stompa is just the trash version of a weak knight so it must be a bit cheaper than the cheapest knight.

A Stompa is not a trash version of a weak knight, it's got more weapons, self repairs D3 wounds per turn, has a transport capacity of 20, gives out a moral reroll, has more attacks at higher strength, benifits from err,we go, dakkax3 and clan cultures.
It might not be 900+ points but it's not 500 points or even close to 300 points it's 100points, (200 tops) overcosted A castellen is 700 points, without 4ppm guardsmen.

Is this a joke? The Stompa is evidently vastly overcosted. It is one of the only units in the game that is literally priced so poorly it can't even be taken in friendly games. It should be 600-700 pts tops. With wargear. It has no invulnerable save. You get that yea? So if you want an invulnerable you add 120 pts of KFF Mek. Also no clan traits if taken in super heavy aux detachment.