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Manticores are defo worth it, simply because they bring a lot of range muscle my army otherwise almost entirely lacks. And not being particularly common even in AM lists, hopefully something my opponents won't see coming.

Still a lot of play testing to do of course, so plans may shift!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Manticores are defo worth it, simply because they bring a lot of range muscle my army otherwise almost entirely lacks. And not being particularly common even in AM lists, hopefully something my opponents won't see coming.

Still a lot of play testing to do of course, so plans may shift!

Actually depending on your target, 5 Jackals with Demolition Charges combined with the 'Extra Explosives' stratagem will do some serious damage. 5D6 S8 AP3 D3 damage, for only 75 points. And of course, hitting on 3's because you took a Jackal Primus!

Also, 20 Neophytes 'Lying In Wait' with Hand Flamers is ridonk for clearing out hordes (re: Orks).

I’m hoping to not be overly reliant on CP, at least not to begin with.

I’d rather git gud with the basic stuff, so I can properly learn how to get the most out of them. From there, look how I might spend CP to really apply the pressure.

Codex is now in hand, so guess it’s time to kick off a bit of list writing, see what I can hammer my existing collection into. Defo got at least 1250 by my reckoning, so will use that a few times, then decide what new stuff I may or may not want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having had some time to go over the Codex....

Going to continue with the 3 x Manticore idea, as I’m happy their capacity for first turn shenanigans is worth it.

Other than that, I’m considering 6 troop choices, a mix of Aco and Neo Hybrids. Intent there is shenanigans to get them occupying objectives ASAP, for the easy racking up of VPs.

For extra muscle, a nice slice of Aberrants accompanied by an Abominant (with the ‘no overwatch against him’ relic...).

Concept as mentioned is all about piling on the early pressure, and scoring VPs as quickly as possible. In an ideal world, the Manticores and Aberrants will do much of the heavy lifting when it comes to duffing up the opposition. Initial targets will depend on my opponents list. If he’s gone infantry light, I may try to squelch what he has brought along. That should let me have Command over objective holding. If he’s gone for some high point value Nasties like Knights or similar, they’ll get some high explosive artillery lovin’, and possibly cow tipped by the Abominant just to polish the buggers off. Really does depend on how I best go about controlling the flow and generally frustrating my opponent.

First list is prepped.

Comes in a smidge under 1,000, but gives me an idea of what the core of my larger army will look like. Figure if I can get good with the core, the rest will fall into place.

Ready?

Abominant
Warlord, with Biomorph Adaptation and Amulet of the Voidwyrm

Magus
2 x Familiars, Autopistol and Force Stave (really not sure if I need to be declaring powers at this stage? I think I am?)

15 Neophytes with shotguns

15 Neophytes with shotguns

15 Neophytes, Autoguns, 2 Grenade Launchers, 2 Mining Lasers

10 Acolytes, Handflamers

10 Acolytes, Handflamers

10 Acolytes, Handflamers

Kelermorph

Sanctus, Silencer Sniper Rifle

5 Aberrants, Hypermorph, 5 Power Hammers

5 Aberrants, Hypermorph, 5 Power Hammers

Concept is as I’ve intended all along. Use the Troops to flood and hold objectives. Acolytes pop up from the sewers, Neophytes are Bliptastic (Autogun unit intended to go up high if possible, and try to plink stuff)

Kelermorph and Sanctus just Do Their Job, and try to force enemy characters to keep their heads down

Aberrants and Abominant are of course the raw muscle, there to wade into whatever needs a good shoeing and give them said good shoeing. Also to attract enemy firepower away from the Troops.

Cult wise, I’m going Rusted Claw. Whilst I’ve no Jackals, their armour boost is most welcome on the Hybrids, who, in theory, will be hugging cover as much as possible. Against AP0, I go from a piddling 5+ armour to a far more tasty 3+, meaning my opponent better bring some Big Dakka against them, or face frustration.

At least tournaments here powers are declared with list BUT before game you can change them. Think of powers listed as default powers unless otherwise specified. Not sure how they are handled in tournaments you attend of course

Pretty much as I thought.

Happy to declare as part of my list. But if I can select game to game, fair enough.

And a wee shopping bag drawn up for Friday, which is payday.

2 sets of Aberrants, 1 Abominant and 2 boxes of Acolyte Hybrids. Should give me enough to be cracking on with. And also, I think just about fills out the list above, ready for some actual gaming.

From there, I’ll likely do a box a week bought, built and painted.

ITC events you pre-select powers as part of your list, and they remain the same for the entire event.

I honestly think the Patriarch is just better than the Abominant. He buffs Aberrants to hit on 2+, and with Might From Beyond, , makes them base S6 with A3.

And truthfully, I think as much as you want to steer clear of using CPs for Stratagems, I think the real strength of the codex lies in their Stratagems. Without them, the codex is just...meh. But the tricks they can pull with strats can really do some nasty things.

True on the strats. But, if I can get good with meh, I may prove unstoppable with them.

I guess it’s a psychological gamble. From what I’ve read, it seems the ‘top tier’ lists (not the players, there’s a definite distinction) depend on their Strats and their Bubblebuffs to wreck face.

And that makes me wonder how many opponents I’ll face will have a solid plan should I start eroding those synergies early on.

Abominant for now is just part of the 1k Points ‘this will be my core’ list. Once I’ve got some experience, it will naturally be revisited and tweaked as necessary.

There's very good reason why people use strategems to max. They WORK. GW made them essential in 8th. 8th ed is all about strategems. If you don't use it you are like giving 20% extra points to your opponent easily.

There is that.

But not relying on them in the early days isn’t the same as not using them at all. And I’m lucky enough to have competent competitive players willing to be guinea pigs.

And in terms of filth, and making a list opponent’s would find challenging? I can get two Vanguard Detachments for 230 points each. Both provide a Jackal Alphus, Kelermorph, Shooty Sanctus and a Locus. That’s potentially three each of the nastiest of Nasties, and all but certain death (damn the dice gods!) for enemy characters everywhere. And I’m confident two Kelermorphs can also pour serious pain on most, if not all, infantry.

Honestly, I would expect to bring 3x Battalions.

I'd have to play-test; this is my initial thoughts on what I would want to bring, focused on playing the objective game, blocking opponents, and abusing Telepathic summons and (potentially) Lying in Wait every turn.

Cult of the Four Armed Emperor Battalion
- Patriarch, Warlord (Biomorph Adaption), Broodmind Discipline (Psychic Stimulus, Might from Beyond), Relic (Amulet of the Voidwyrm), 2 Familiars
- Primus, Bonesword
- Sanctus
- Clamavus
- Locus
- Nexos
- 10 Aberrants, 8 Power Picks, 2 Heavy Improvised Weapons, Rending Claws, 2 Hypermorph Tails

Rusted Claw Battalion
- Magus
- Jackal Alphus
- Sanctus (melee)
- Kelermorph
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar
- Cult Leman Russ, Battle Cannon, 3x Heavy Bolters
- Cult Leman Russ, Battle Cannon, 3x Heavy Bolters
- Cult Leman Russ, Battle Cannon, 3x Heavy Bolters

Twisted Helix Battalion
- Magus
- Jackal Alphus
- Sanctus (melee)
- Kelermorph
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar
- Brood Infantry Squad, Mortar

Total: 1995 pts
Command Points: 18

Before the battle begins, you spend 1 CP to play Broodcoven to give your Four-Armed Primus the Warlord Trait (Inscrutible Cunning). You can pick either Magus and give them whatever trait, I don't care. You're hoping to roll a 2 or 3 on the D3 to gain 1 or 2 additional CP, taking you to either 19 or 20 total.

The Sanctus will let you play Scanned Decoys for free for extra camo tokens, and 1 CP for Meticulous Planning if you want to play wack-a-mole funsies.

There are some neat relics you can take too; The Gift from Beyond and The Sword of the Four-Armed Emperor caught my eye; is it worth spending the CP for Grandsire's Gifts? Maybe. This is up to you, and not a must IMO.

Patriarch pairs with and buffs the Aberrants. The Primus makes them hit on 2+. Clamavus gives them +1" Advance and Charge (which, in addition to the Cult ability, means they add +2" to their charge on the turn they arrive). A Perfect Ambush for 3 CP will move them D6" and allow them to charge, ensuring that you all but make that guaranteed charge. You'll probably be spending 2 CP for either Monstrous Vigour on them every turn, or 1 CP to Return to the Shadows so they can go ambush something else, again using A Perfect Ambush to pull that charge off.

Every turn, you spend 2 CP on Telepathic Summons to bring on an average 10-11 power unit. Rusted Claw Magus to bring in shooting units/bikes, Twisted Helix if you plan to bring on combat units (+1 Strength, +2" to Advance rolls). Just some ideas of units you can bring in:
- 4 Atalan Jackals is 3 pwr, guaranteed with 3D6. You'll be able to add more Jackals/Wolf Quads depending on your roll. 2 CP for Lying in Wait and 1 CP for Extra Explosives to just suicide-squad up to 5 Demolition Charges
- 10 Purestrain Genestealers is 10 pwr
- 20 Hybrids is 11 pwr (or 15 at 9 pwr if you're unlucky) with hand flamers. 2 CP for Lying in Wait and just watch the world burn.
- 10 Metamorphs is 6 pwr
- 5 Aberrants is 7 pwr
- A Kelermorph or another combat Sanctus is 3 pwr, because you like breaking rules

Having a Cult of the Four Armed gives you access to the 3 CP A Plan Generations in the Making strat to just nope-card your opponent's strategems.

Well, here’s my hypothetical 1750.

As discussed earlier, I’m aiming for resilient Hybrids bagging all the objectives early on, so I can start racking up easy VPs (I appreciate ITC format will necessitate a different tack) pretty much regardless of the cards I draw.

You can probably tell I’m a bit of a NooB, but wrote:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [66 PL, 1092pts, 8CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Ambush Markers

[Reference] Discipline: Broodmind

[Reference] Power: Smite

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Cult Creed: The Rusted Claw

Detachment CP [5CP]

Insurrectionists

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Abominant [6 PL, 105pts]: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 70pts]: 9x Acolyte Hybrid
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 79pts]
. 9x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 9x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 79pts]
. 9x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 9x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Neophyte Hybrids [6 PL, 75pts]: 14x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun)
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [6 PL, 99pts]: 12x Neophyte Hybrid
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [6 PL, 75pts]: 14x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun)
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Elites +

Aberrants [7 PL, 160pts]
. 4x Aberrant (Hammer): 4x Heavy Power Hammer
. Aberrant Hypermorph (Hammer): Heavy Power Hammer

Aberrants [7 PL, 160pts]
. 4x Aberrant (Hammer): 4x Heavy Power Hammer
. Aberrant Hypermorph (Hammer): Heavy Power Hammer

Kelermorph [3 PL, 60pts]

Sanctus [3 PL, 60pts]: Silencer Sniper Rifle

++ Total: [66 PL, 8CP, 1092pts] ++


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [26 PL, 429pts, 1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Manticore [8 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter

Manticore [8 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter

Manticore [8 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [26 PL, 1CP, 429pts] ++


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [12 PL, 225pts, 1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Ambush Markers

Cult Creed: The Rusted Claw

Detachment CP [1CP]

Insurrectionists

+ HQ +

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Elites +

Biophagus [2 PL, 35pts]

Kelermorph [3 PL, 60pts]

Sanctus [3 PL, 60pts]: Silencer Sniper Rifle

++ Total: [12 PL, 1CP, 225pts] ++

It’s somewhat unusual, and I’m largely open to tweaking what sits where in the GSC Detachments to give some flex in terms of Creeds. And there’s definitely room for some tweaking.

But overall, it should be a good start. Manticores provide some very early oomph. The multiple assassin types can, potentially, depending on deployment options and opportunity, deal with enemy characters toot bloody suite.

All about being cunning, with a mix of precision and outright hammer blow attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if the list is a bit hard to read! Imported from BattleScribe, but I hope you can muddle through.

One thing to keep in mind is that per Brood Brothers rule, you can take Astra Militarum units in Genestealer Cult Detachments without breaking the ability to take/use a Creed.

Moving those Manticores to a GSC detachment frees up room for a 3rd Detachment if you so chose, without locking yourself into an Astra Militarum one.

Think I need to re-read that bit in my Codex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pretty sure AM needs to be a separate detachment?

You are probably correct; I might have been misreading the "you can include ASTRA MILITARUM units and GENESTEALER CULT units in the same matched play army..." portion to mean detachment.

Okay, so yea you'll need a 3rd detachment for Astra Militarum Manticores.

Hmmmmm.

There’s a further idea dribbling out my brain...

Given my overall plan, I’ve been thinking of trying to squeeze in a Wyvern. For its points, it offers an awful lot of pretty reliable anti-infantry firepower. And like the Manticores, doesn’t require LoS. 4D6 S4 shots, which re-roll Wounds is awfully, awfully tempting.

Now I can easily squeeze it into my theoretical 2,000 point Tourny list. In fact, I can shove one Manticore into a battery with his mate, and take two Wyverns as a battery.

Upside is that it gives me serious options when playing for Tactical Objectives. Deployed right, their 48” range can cover most of, if not all of the board. Whilst the Manticores busy themselves giving big stuff a good blatting, Wyverns start on my opponent’s Troops choices. And as I’m gambling on better board control than my foe, that could be the icing on the cake?

Don't forget that ITC terrain rules means that first floors are all solid walls. It's much easier to hide and protect infantry squads with mortars than it is vehicles.

Being able to keep all your vehicles out of LoS is heavily dependent on the amount and type of terrain at the tables, so I'd be wary of trying to cram too many vehicles in hoping they won't get picked off.

Do I like the idea? Absolutely. I'm just not sure if it'll pan out like you think it will in an ITC tournament environment.

Oh it’s not so much keeping my stuff out of LoS (I mean, it’s nice if I can!), so much as having stuff my opponent cannot hide from.

In theory, they free up my Hybrids, at the same time as supporting them. If for instance, there’s a nasty looking horde of Boyz hellbent on giving me a kicking, a couple of Wyverns, a liberal dousing from Handflamers and then an Acolyte charge ought to put a pretty big dent in them.

They also massively help with trying to ensure my opponent’s infantry are in no shape to easily contest objectives.

Not all the events I attend will be ITC, so I may well end up with two lists overall. One for ITC, one for other things.

I really do think I may be on to something, tactically speaking. Between the sneaky Shooty Assassin types, the artillery, and me be able to populate pretty much whichever objectives I please, my opponent may be at a loss as to what to tackle first, giving me further advantage. After all, indecision turns to poor decision in the blink of an eye. I just need to be on the ball enough to know where and when to strike myself!

Wyvern gives you 4d6 shots. 9 mortars give you 9d6. Don't think wyvern's guns stats are worth having less than half the shots.

I’ll look into it to be sure.

Main concern is how much squishier Brood Bros might prove.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got me some new toys today.

Pair of Sanctus (Scanti?), and Starn’s Disciples, giving me a Killermorph and some Acolytes.

Sadly, some total bum bag got there before me and snaffled the Aberrants and Abominant I was hoping to grab. But not to worry!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I caved and did a mail order from Element Games (do not take this as an endorsement of them. For balance, other stuff I have in hand was bought from Dark Sphere).

Aberrants x 2, Abominant and a Jackal Alphus.

Also picked up CA:18, so will be giving it a good going over.

Reckon I want to play each mission at least once as part of my training. Even if they’re not used in the Tournies I end up attending, they do offer decent variety, so should keep me on my toesies.

Booked a week off work for the end of March.

By then, I should have all the models I need bought. So the time off shall be spent in a painting frenzy

Well, due to circumstances beyond my control, things aren’t currently going to plan. Lot going on in private life, which is proving somewhat draining.

But, I have at least made a start on painting some Hybrids. Just a squad of ten so far, but at least it’s something.

Private life can be an intrusive bugger, Dok, but don't let them grind you down! Enjoying following this :-)

Oh well, best laid plans etc!

With life having taken quite the run up, and missed both my legs, Things Have Not Gone As Planned.

To the point I'm changing army, and switching to Chaos Knights. They're shiny, they're stompy, and they're pretty easy to paint. And if bought at Online Discount, really quite affordable.

But, as a Tournament Etiquette question....Relics, and the Relic Stratagem.

In theory, it could be argued that because the extra ones are spent pre-game, I could wait to see your force composition and deployment, then slotting in the Relics I think best confound you.

But that strikes me as poor sportsmanship - and I suspect (only suspect) that Tournaments won't allow that - instead my list is set, and I remain committed to spending those CP regardless?

As with anything that is a grey area, there's only one true answer - check with the TO before the event.

And/or email the GW FAQ email address, as maybe they can put something about how they would intend that to work in the next Big FAQ

Here deployment is considered part of game so no changing relics once that starts. However pregame opponent list is public domain so changing what and how many relics you change there after seeing opponent list is up to you. If you declare no changes then as per your list. How it's in your tournament i don't know.

Reckon I'll follow Dysartes' suggestion and email GW's FAQ team.

See, once upon a time, in Old Warhammer, Wizards and that usually had a choice of Spell Lores to choose from. And it wasn't until 8th Edition that the selection of Lore was made when adding the Caster to your army.

And that made quite a difference. For instance, some armies (such as Ogres) had basically one, maybe two Lores to choose from. But Empire Battle Wizards and High Elves could choose any of the 8 main lores. Given those tended be quite specialised, in a Tournament setting, being able to 'wait and see' benefitted certain armies far more than others.

Hey ho.

Anyways, progress of a sort. Got my first Moirax Lightning Lock Knight, awaiting clean up of the resin, assembly and painting.

I'm hoping to have a fully painted Knight army by the end of the year. Which seems doable. I'm always happier painting big things than fiddling around with Infantry

Are you planning to attend GW tournaments? Because that's where GW answer would really matter. If you want to know answer applicable to your situation you need to get in contact with whoever organizes tournaments you attend.

Counter arqument is that if you couldn't change most of warlord traits, relics etc would never see the light of day for being too situational. And in FLGS it would benefit people with bazillion armies over players who always play the same army. You have 5 armies and opponent has just his chaos? Safe to take vengeance for cadia relic. Vs somebody playing somebody who has other armies than chaos so don't know what opponent brings...

Also reduces rock paper scissor element which 40k has too much.