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Brutus_Apex wrote: Back in my day we had to wait 5- 7 years between codexes and we liked it *grumble*
But yes, keeping up with content and even models is a nightmare. I paint maybe 1 or 2 armies a year and I just can't keep up. I'm not even chasing the meta.
I do make large armies though...
Codex in the past must have really been writen with much better rule sets then now, because I can't imagine someone playing something like GK for 7 years with hope that maybe the codex gets better, only to get a copy past codex later on, and live with the prospect of another 5-7 years waiting.
hahahahahahahahahaha
nope.
Competitive metas were 1-2 armies for entire editions pretty much. Sometimes I try to imagine the brain anyeurism that the spoiled-ass 8th edition crowd would get if we had something like the Codex Space Marines to Codex Space Wolves comparison in modern 40k, where Space Wolves were literally just space marines for the exact same cost with a host of extra free gak lumped onto them for "flavor".
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Argive wrote: Oh yeah too much content for peoples armies.. must be a real bummer!
im sitting here with a bunch of failcast 15 year old sculpts :p.
Exactly this lol. We're spoiled for content. I just feel bad for people playing the niche armies that missed the boat. Unbelievable that people complain about having more, optional, additions, added to their army.
Don't feel too sorry for us. We'll get a new model in another 2 years on regular pace (no updates to old models of course), but one new unit would be sweet and I think we will see one around 2021 (the last one was in 2011, before that 2001)! I hope it's a HQ being able to legally take 2 battalions with no special characters would be awesome!
Brutus_Apex wrote: Back in my day we had to wait 5- 7 years between codexes and we liked it *grumble*
But yes, keeping up with content and even models is a nightmare. I paint maybe 1 or 2 armies a year and I just can't keep up. I'm not even chasing the meta.
I do make large armies though...
Codex in the past must have really been writen with much better rule sets then now, because I can't imagine someone playing something like GK for 7 years with hope that maybe the codex gets better, only to get a copy past codex later on, and live with the prospect of another 5-7 years waiting.
hahahahahahahahahaha
nope.
Competitive metas were 1-2 armies for entire editions pretty much. Sometimes I try to imagine the brain anyeurism that the spoiled-ass 8th edition crowd would get if we had something like the Codex Space Marines to Codex Space Wolves comparison in modern 40k, where Space Wolves were literally just space marines for the exact same cost with a host of extra free gak lumped onto them for "flavor".
In a way, I do kinda miss those days. You knew what you were getting into with an army and "new" armies were safer for longer.
Yeah, it sucked to go against that 1-2 armies that were on top the whole edition, but you KNEW what those armies were.
Now there is just so much stuff that comes out every month that it is not only hard to "chase the meta" but hard to know if you have a competitive list that will be competitive next week, or know if the army you are facing is going to give you a headache or not.
Now that 90% the Codices are out, I kinda hope all we have to expect for new releases are one-off WD updates, Version2 Codices with minimal changes and CA points changes.
Let the "meta" settle for a year or so.
My problem is I seek after Sun Tzu's philosophy to know thy enemy and know myself (shortened if course). Even in 7th I could keep up with most of the armies. However, Now I can only keep up with my armies and the lists I see on Thursday nights at my flgs. I used to be able to know/study/understand every other army, but with so much content I am no longer able to keep up with the complexities of other armies.. and it is affecting my ability to bring my best game (not my best army, but knowing how to use my army against my opponent).
There rules bloat has taken a degree of fun away in that manner.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Brutus_Apex wrote: Back in my day we had to wait 5- 7 years between codexes and we liked it *grumble*
But yes, keeping up with content and even models is a nightmare. I paint maybe 1 or 2 armies a year and I just can't keep up. I'm not even chasing the meta.
I do make large armies though...
Codex in the past must have really been writen with much better rule sets then now, because I can't imagine someone playing something like GK for 7 years with hope that maybe the codex gets better, only to get a copy past codex later on, and live with the prospect of another 5-7 years waiting.
hahahahahahahahahaha
nope.
Competitive metas were 1-2 armies for entire editions pretty much. Sometimes I try to imagine the brain anyeurism that the spoiled-ass 8th edition crowd would get if we had something like the Codex Space Marines to Codex Space Wolves comparison in modern 40k, where Space Wolves were literally just space marines for the exact same cost with a host of extra free gak lumped onto them for "flavor".
Exactly this. Karol your negative feedback towards their efforts doesn't encourage them to improve it, it discourages it. There's a constructive way to say "hey you missed the mark on this specific point", without just being a spoiled brat about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 11:07:19
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Karol wrote: Codex in the past must have really been writen with much better rule sets then now, because I can't imagine someone playing something like GK for 7 years with hope that maybe the codex gets better, only to get a copy past codex later on, and live with the prospect of another 5-7 years waiting.
It was pretty bad. Took them 3 1/2 years to do something about the shambles of a 5e codex the GK had, 5 years to fix chaos 3.5...
But in all seriousness the daemonhunters update cycle was 8 years (not the longest - Crons 9 1/2 years, DE 12 years). It wasn't just a matter of waiting out a weak codex, long update times meant the game would undergoing significant balance and rules changes that were rarely retroactive. GK were paying 20pts over the odds for heavy weapons, rocking 4++(melee only) storm shields, chimeras with one firepoint, and landraiders without machine spirits to name a few as 5e rolled on - makes you appreciate the extra content a little more when you played through that.
Argive wrote: Oh yeah too much content for peoples armies.. must be a real bummer!
im sitting here with a bunch of failcast 15 year old sculpts :p.
Exactly this lol. We're spoiled for content. I just feel bad for people playing the niche armies that missed the boat. Unbelievable that people complain about having more, optional, additions, added to their army.
Don't feel too sorry for us. We'll get a new model in another 2 years on regular pace (no updates to old models of course), but one new unit would be sweet and I think we will see one around 2021 (the last one was in 2011, before that 2001)! I hope it's a HQ being able to legally take 2 battalions with no special characters would be awesome!
Could be worse: some (many?) armies have *lost* more units than they've gained in the last 5 years.
Argive wrote: Oh yeah too much content for peoples armies.. must be a real bummer!
im sitting here with a bunch of failcast 15 year old sculpts :p.
Exactly this lol. We're spoiled for content. I just feel bad for people playing the niche armies that missed the boat. Unbelievable that people complain about having more, optional, additions, added to their army.
Don't feel too sorry for us. We'll get a new model in another 2 years on regular pace (no updates to old models of course), but one new unit would be sweet and I think we will see one around 2021 (the last one was in 2011, before that 2001)! I hope it's a HQ being able to legally take 2 battalions with no special characters would be awesome!
Could be worse: some (many?) armies have *lost* more units than they've gained in the last 5 years.
Yeah, like the army he's referring to unless I'm wrong.
In the last decade, DE have gained one (1) multipart plastic kit with 5 guys for 40$ that is totally monopose (the arms are molded so that you can only glue them on one way and the whole body and direction the head is facing is fully dicatated to you) and 3 plastic character clampacks, which helpfully GW has made the only legal weapons loadout for our HQs.
Since the relaunch in fifth every codex has had dark eldar lose options and units. we even haven't had rules for the freakin' marneus calgar of our faction who all the fluff was about and continues to be about and they don't have a fething model or rules for him. We have 3 named characters, 1 of which hasn't done anything in the lore since his model came out in 3rd ed. All the named characters who actually appear in the fluff no longer exist in the model range lol.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Brutus_Apex wrote: Back in my day we had to wait 5- 7 years between codexes and we liked it *grumble*
But yes, keeping up with content and even models is a nightmare. I paint maybe 1 or 2 armies a year and I just can't keep up. I'm not even chasing the meta.
I do make large armies though...
Codex in the past must have really been writen with much better rule sets then now, because I can't imagine someone playing something like GK for 7 years with hope that maybe the codex gets better, only to get a copy past codex later on, and live with the prospect of another 5-7 years waiting.
hahahahahahahahahaha
nope.
Competitive metas were 1-2 armies for entire editions pretty much. Sometimes I try to imagine the brain anyeurism that the spoiled-ass 8th edition crowd would get if we had something like the Codex Space Marines to Codex Space Wolves comparison in modern 40k, where Space Wolves were literally just space marines for the exact same cost with a host of extra free gak lumped onto them for "flavor".
Exactly this. Karol never stops whining about balance in an edition where balance has never been tighter. Your negative feedback towards their efforts doesn't encourage them to improve it, it discourages it. There's a constructive way to say "hey you missed the mark on this specific point", without just being a spoiled brat about it.
8th is probably the "most balanced" edition yet.
We all know GK suck currently, its lame, I wish it wasnt so. But bitching about it does exactly 0% to help the predicament. It also doesnt help that you(Karol) play in one of the worst metas ever(by your own admission).
Bharring wrote: DE were the first army that popped into mind. But many other armies - Nids, CWE, Corsairs, Necrons, etc - aren't too far off.
I was referring to DE. I play bis CWE and Corsairs too, but Corsairs don't count and Nids/CWE have much more love than DE (though nids are still on the low end).
Bharring wrote: DE were the first army that popped into mind. But many other armies - Nids, CWE, Corsairs, Necrons, etc - aren't too far off.
I was referring to DE. I play bis CWE and Corsairs too, but Corsairs don't count and Nids/CWE have much more love than DE (though nids are still on the low end).
Totally agree. DE have it much worse than Nids/CWE.
Slipspace wrote:Turns out a huge chunk of the rules for Chaos are actually in Vigilus.
I'm curious. What is it in Vigilus that you guys wouldn't consider part of an optional expansion? I'm not defending it or anything. I'm actually asking, because I haven't read it.
Smotejob wrote:My problem is I seek after Sun Tzu's philosophy to know thy enemy and know myself (shortened if course). Even in 7th I could keep up with most of the armies. However, Now I can only keep up with my armies and the lists I see on Thursday nights at my flgs. I used to be able to know/study/understand every other army, but with so much content I am no longer able to keep up with the complexities of other armies.. and it is affecting my ability to bring my best game (not my best army, but knowing how to use my army against my opponent).
There rules bloat has taken a degree of fun away in that manner.
When you put it this way, it sounds awesome! Having too much stuff to master sounds to me like there will always be new avenues of the game to explore.
To me Vigilus highlights a problem that goes back to 7th edition. I either have the complete rules for my army or I don't. I primarily play space marines and to me there is no such thing as optional expansions. Any supplement or WD release is mandatory or I'm playing my faction with out the complete omnibus of options. I wish GW would do more to consolidate it's rules releases.
The problem is they seemed unwilling to have books go obsolete.
CSM 2nd edition gives me hope.
I have a Codex.
I have a FAQ (latest).
I must also have the two Chapter Approved.
Then any fiddly pieces of rules that come out with new models until something is written (we must have these or get no new models otherwise).
Nevermind the BRB and it's FAQ.
Chapter Approved should contain completely all rules updates outlined in the prior CA book(s) and the FAQ that came before..
The FAQ should cover everything CA does not have (so no waiting for rules between CA releases)..
Then you can reboot everything by making a new edition of the "bloated" codex and repeat the cycle.
I see this as being the only "reasonable" method where if you have say 2 armies being played together you would have 2 Codex books, ONE Chapter Approved, and a couple of FAQ's if done right should not be bigger than a page.
I do not agree that content fatigue is setting in just yet, if they start publishing Codex "supplements" or special "Formation Rules" with a GW special purchase, then we may be back to the bad old days.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Talizvar wrote: The problem is they seemed unwilling to have books go obsolete.
CSM 2nd edition gives me hope.
I have a Codex.
I have a FAQ (latest).
I must also have the two Chapter Approved.
Then any fiddly pieces of rules that come out with new models until something is written (we must have these or get no new models otherwise).
Nevermind the BRB and it's FAQ.
Chapter Approved should contain completely all rules updates outlined in the prior CA book(s) and the FAQ that came before..
The FAQ should cover everything CA does not have (so no waiting for rules between CA releases)..
Then you can reboot everything by making a new edition of the "bloated" codex and repeat the cycle.
I see this as being the only "reasonable" method where if you have say 2 armies being played together you would have 2 Codex books, ONE Chapter Approved, and a couple of FAQ's if done right should not be bigger than a page.
I do not agree that content fatigue is setting in just yet, if they start publishing Codex "supplements" or special "Formation Rules" with a GW special purchase, then we may be back to the bad old days.
I dunno even the 2nd edition of codex choas space marines suffers from the "fear of obselescance" issue.if they where willing to allow books to be obselete codex CSM could have for example made new and better legion trait rules etc to fix a few of the "overly weak ones"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 21:32:37
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Theoretically, I think the maximum is:
Astartes detachment with models from each codex with the astartes keyword: BA, SW, DA, SM, GK, DW, Vanguard pamphlet. 6 books, one packet
Something Else Imperial. 1 book
Something Else Imperial. 1 book
Forge World models for each of those armies: 2 more books
CA2018
BRB Vigilus
Assassins WD Index SM, and Index, Imperial 2
That's 15 books, 2 pamphlets, and it's an extreme case.
The maximum number of books at play between two players would probably then be your opponent being:
CWE DE Harlequins
Index Xenos
Index Imperial Armor Xenos
WD Ynnari
for an additional 5 books and 1 pamphlet
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 21:49:13
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
JohnnyHell wrote: He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.
I don't think there's even 93 books though, total.
Then there's the Vanguard pamphlet, and a couple of sets of White Dwarf rules. There's also a single SMCT found in a BL book somewhere.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
JohnnyHell wrote: He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.
Your peddling an equal falsehood though. Yes he's being a bit hyperbolic but the underlying point is no wrong.
To have the complete rules just for one army I play Space marines I need the following
Codex Space Marine
Index Space Marine
Forge World index
Various FAQs CA White Dwarfs
The vanguard mini codex
Thats three books and almost half a dozen side documents and that's just to play one army.
Nope. I'm only really concerned with knowing the armies/models I'm currently playing (SM, SW, & Demons {Khorne only}).
And to a lesser extent those that I play against most often.
JohnnyHell wrote: He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.
Your peddling an equal falsehood though. Yes he's being a bit hyperbolic but the underlying point is no wrong.
To have the complete rules just for one army I play Space marines I need the following
Codex Space Marine
Index Space Marine
Forge World index
Various FAQs CA White Dwarfs
The vanguard mini codex
Thats three books and almost half a dozen side documents and that's just to play one army.
Is 6 books really so bad, though?
The minimum is 3: BRB, CA, and your Codex. To have all the potential rules for a single faction, you need a Codex, an Index, an IA Index, and potentially a Vigilus. That's still not a lot or unreasonable amount of books.
15 might be an egregious number of rules, but that's a number come upon by deliberately trying to include as many units from different books as legally possible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 22:25:07
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I consider it a lot of books especially after GW originally seemed to recognize the content creep that was 7th and at the start of 8th had cut back. It's now slipping back the other way again.
When I started in 5th you needed the BRB a codex and a FAQ and that gave you everything. Now you need a lot more than that and if you play soup then I hope you brought a backpack or duffel bag.
keep in mind people talk about a ton of books but that's in part largely because of soup.
if you don't choose to soup the most number of books a C:SM player needs is basicly the codex, vigilus defiant, the phmplet and a forge world book assuming you want your FW stuff. Yes if you want to run some complicated soup you need more books but hey, the decision to run the soup is yours.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
HoundsofDemos wrote: I consider it a lot of books especially after GW originally seemed to recognize the content creep that was 7th and at the start of 8th had cut back. It's now slipping back the other way again.
When I started in 5th you needed the BRB a codex and a FAQ and that gave you everything. Now you need a lot more than that and if you play soup then I hope you brought a backpack or duffel bag.
I like how you included the IA index for the current edition needs but have decided to emit things like the Badab War books for 5th.
I'll concede the above point about forge world back in 5th. Slipped my mind because when I started in 5th FW wasn't a thing in my local area and was treated as shadowy boogieman that wasn't real 40k.
I still think my over all point stands. I really would like GW to consolidate rules into less sources. I still really don't get why CA is separate from the FAQs
HoundsofDemos wrote: I'll concede the above point about forge world back in 5th. Slipped my mind because when I started in 5th FW wasn't a thing in my local area and was treated as shadowy boogieman that wasn't real 40k.
I still think my over all point stands. I really would like GW to consolidate rules into less sources. I still really don't get why CA is separate from the FAQs
Because they can't make a CA 2-3 times a year, and we would like more frequent updates than once a year.
In addition, CA isn't just minute errata like the FAQ, it's got some major stuff in it [like my Codex], mission packets, and other things.
I really like the way they're doing things now. I was suspicious of the Vigilus books, and still am, but the rest of it is really nice I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 02:03:45
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Eldar- 4436 pts
