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Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

I can't say I'm sad about a 2++ being removed from the game.

Frankly, I wish they'd change the DE Archon's Shadowfield. It's a mechanic that no longer makes any sense in the current edition and it really shows.

Regarding Grey Knights, I agree that they need help but the problem IMO is that GW have basically written themselves into a corner with them.
- They want every GK to be decked out with gear and abilities (including a Storm Bolter and Force Weapon apiece, as well as psychic powers), but this makes them very expensive. And if they reduce their cost, then they risk turning them into Space Marines +1 (which was a real problem in previous editions).
- They can't have an extra wound (it would tread on the toes of Primaris marines) or a better save (that's what Terminators are for), so outside of psychic defences they're no harder to kill than ordinary marines.
- They've gradually lost all their support units. GKs uses to just be the elites - a small part of a larger force. It would generally be guardsmen/inquisition forces that would make up a significant chunk of the army and cover the weaknesses of GKs. However, because those have been removed from the GK codex, GK players (not unreasonably) expect to be able to build a list without them. But this effectively means trying to build an entire army around a few specialist units.


In terms of how to fix them, my main suggestions would be:
- Dial down the gear on regular GKs. Maybe take a leaf out of the old Daemon Hunter codex and scale down the weapons for basic marines. It used to be that Nemesis Force Weapons only provided +2S to regular GKs. They weren't power weapons and nor were they force weapons. Terminators got Power Weapon versions (though still not Force Weapons). Only Grand Masters were able to unlock the full effect of them. This seems like something that could be used to lower the cost of many GK units - especially the ones that only have 1 attack apiece. Perhaps there could be a stratagem that improves their weapons for a turn? And sergeants in squads could still have options for full force weapons.
- Put Inquisition back in the codex. They'll at least add a bit more variety and versatility.
(Obviously there's more that needs adjusting, like the Psycannon and other gear. But the above would be my first step to improving GKs.)

Akiasura wrote:
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"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Surely the obvious way to fix Grey Knights is to just make them more offensively potent in the psychic phase? That way you don't tread on the feet of any other Marines or the Custodes and GK remain elite, expensive and true to the fluff (i.e. very killy but also prone to dying to the last man)
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
Made in us
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Iowa

Mike712 wrote:
GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

Is your list posted anywhere? I’m curious.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:
Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.

My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.


Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...

In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 00:58:04


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

 Smotejob wrote:
Literally no one:

GW: let's Nerf the Grey Knights.

Thanks GW.

I strongly suspect the intent wasn't "let's nerf a bad army, lol" but rather "those rules are allowing for an unintended way of playing to occur, let's fix that."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
*tin foil hat engaged*

GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"

GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"

GW exec " I see.... squat them then"

GW rules writer "understood sir"

There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.


my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.

Exorcists are GK genestock and they Primaris'd just fine.

What makes this whole mess worse is GW apparently stating on record that there wouldn't be Grey Knight Primaris...ever. Which is dumb since you could just upgrade the chapter to Primaris and say they went the route of upgrading and inducting new ones over taking the Indomitus Crusade veterants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 01:22:21


 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, I can live with the refused 2++ save, since I usually run two GMNKs.
Each can be buffed to 3++.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:

Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...

In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.



high cost slow melee armies in a game where shoting is one uping everything, are never going to work. Specialy when the melee army has 1A per model.
What are or were good melee units in w40k, twice fighting s spears, bilion attack boys, IG buffed up, jetbike custodes. Knights are ok at melee too. Everything melee that is good, ignores some rules , nothing is 1A 20pts and moving at a snails pace. Maybe if GK were super resilient. like -1 to hit stacked with some other defence rules, it could work. Am not sure if there were armies like that in the past.

This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

First of all congratulations. I do have a question though, all good armies in the game are build to counter stuff like castellans or crusaders pre FAQ nerf. How did you protect your land raider, when it is less resilient then any of those two ?


- Put Inquisition back in the codex. They'll at least add a bit more variety and versatility.

Wouldn't that just mean that people would play with 3 NDKs, and a swarm of 4 pts inquisitorial guardsmen ? And technically we can do that already just need to take two separate detachments. Not saying having it in one wouldn't be beneficial. For example our store had a 1 detachment event a few weeks ago, so such a combination would be a big boon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 774803 10431374 wrote:
The 2++ thing is always more about the experience it gives rather than it winning all the time. It also isn't Pre-FAQ. Either way I think they just have a hard "No invul better than a 3++, rule" The soup argument is largely because someone previously said, "Well GK don't have much CP so they will run out and not have a 2++ , and that does not hold true when they can ally guard for Cheap CP.

IN the end some change to their cost/stats is needed, I think cost is the way to go as I cannot really see a realistic stat change that helps them.

if GW values the expiriance of playing an army higher then their own rule set, then shouldn't they care for the expiriance of people playing GK armies too? GK even if they do not run out of CP, do not dominate games, they just don't. In big tournaments the best GK players are the only ones who are not making it in to top 32. At the same time playing GK, specially of the mono kind, requires a tournament build for casual games, and even then if the opposing army is of the good kind, but just not tournament build, the game may end up being a real unfun expiriance for the GK player.

I don't think GW is going to lower GK costs, they had multiple occasions to do so, and they only change stuff other marines get changed. Other marines get a drop on HQs, GK get it too. Dreads drop in points, GK drops too. Primaris get cheaper, tought to be you GK no primaris for you. etc

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 07:07:27


 
   
Made in gb
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes




I think it's agreed generally they could use more defensive buffs, more spells and more attacks on the basic mooks.

How's about splitting psychic powers into multiple tress, only affect GK, one based on defense utility which could include a re-roll saves of 1 aura, maybe a 5+++ aura as well. Bump base attacks up or ass some powers to increase attacks for a unit etc.

Basically take their unique points - potent melee weapons and multiple psykers and just give them something to do.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Apple Peel wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

Is your list posted anywhere? I’m curious.


Yes, but just for referance.

Draigo + gate, hammerhand
Voldus + gate, hammerhand, sanctuary
10 Paladins w/halberds + hammerhand, 4 Psycannons, Paragon w/hammer
3 Paladins w/halberds + gate, Paragon w/hammer
Apothecary, w/hammer + sanctuary, warlord, FTTF, relic hammer

Techmarine
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile

Tempestor Prime w/Power sword
Tempestor Prime w/Power sword

5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword

Assassin

It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.

The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.

It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.

People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.

My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.






I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
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Inside Yvraine

Penance for 5th edition. Maybe after one more decade or so of suffering you can be allowed to have a strong army again.

 
   
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Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.

They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.

There, I fixed Grey Knights !

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Removing a bunch of matched play restrictions for specifically the Grey Knights could be an interesting buff to keep them fluffy and elite. Give them a certain number of casts on each spell, let them deepstrike more than 50% of their army (make certain upgrades not count towards the maximum deep strike), or remove the anti-soup restrictions specifically for them. (25% of a detachment can be from any imperial faction) It would take some testing, probably Lawrence from tabletoptactics or some other high skilled player who likes/plays the GK. Edit: The ability to hot swap spells like Deathwatch do SIA could be cool too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 13:02:45


 
   
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On the Internet

I wad getting caught up on the thread and saw the comment about putting Inquisiyion back into the codex: no. Ain't going to happen and it's a bad idea.

Inquisition is a prime example of the reason why the Imperium should be able to soup. Cramming it into a subpar codex doesn't fix the problems the Inquisition currently has and it doesn't fix the Grey Knights.
   
Made in us
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I'm all for adding +1A to each PA model, regular smite for characters, drop cost of psychic onslaught to 1CP, remove psybolt ammo as a strat and make it a generic ammo for bolters and stormbolters only which cannot be used with bolter discipline (as SIA for Deathwatch).
   
Made in us
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Spoiler:
Mike712 wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

Is your list posted anywhere? I’m curious.


Yes, but just for referance.

Draigo + gate, hammerhand
Voldus + gate, hammerhand, sanctuary
10 Paladins w/halberds + hammerhand, 4 Psycannons, Paragon w/hammer
3 Paladins w/halberds + gate, Paragon w/hammer
Apothecary, w/hammer + sanctuary, warlord, FTTF, relic hammer

Techmarine
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile

Tempestor Prime w/Power sword
Tempestor Prime w/Power sword

5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword

Assassin

It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.

The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.

It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.

People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.

My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.








This is similar to another list making the rounds.

Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Brother-Captain [9 PL, 112pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Sanctuary



Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 153pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Gate of Infinity, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Gate of Infinity, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon



Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Librarian [9 PL, 136pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Curiass of Sacrifice, Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Purge Soul, Stormshield, Warlord

+ Elites +

Doomglaive Dreadnought [9 PL, 162pts]: Gate of Infinity, Heavy psycannon, Nemesis doomglaive, Storm bolter

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 245pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Paladin (Halberd): 4x Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Nemesis Warding Stave, Storm Bolter

Dreadnought [8 PL, 138pts]: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 230pts]: Astral Aim
. 9x Interceptor (Falchions): 9x Storm Bolter
. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 DominayTrix wrote:
Removing a bunch of matched play restrictions for specifically the Grey Knights could be an interesting buff to keep them fluffy and elite. Give them a certain number of casts on each spell, let them deepstrike more than 50% of their army (make certain upgrades not count towards the maximum deep strike), or remove the anti-soup restrictions specifically for them. (25% of a detachment can be from any imperial faction) It would take some testing, probably Lawrence from tabletoptactics or some other high skilled player who likes/plays the GK. Edit: The ability to hot swap spells like Deathwatch do SIA could be cool too.


This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Mike712 wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.

Is your list posted anywhere? I’m curious.


Yes, but just for referance.

Draigo + gate, hammerhand
Voldus + gate, hammerhand, sanctuary
10 Paladins w/halberds + hammerhand, 4 Psycannons, Paragon w/hammer
3 Paladins w/halberds + gate, Paragon w/hammer
Apothecary, w/hammer + sanctuary, warlord, FTTF, relic hammer

Techmarine
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile

Tempestor Prime w/Power sword
Tempestor Prime w/Power sword

5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, Tempestor W/power sword

Assassin

It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.

The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.

It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.

People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.

My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.








This is similar to another list making the rounds.

Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Brother-Captain [9 PL, 112pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm Bolter

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Sanctuary



Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 153pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Gate of Infinity, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Gate of Infinity, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 158pts]: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon



Vanguard Detachment +1CP

+ HQ +

Librarian [9 PL, 136pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Curiass of Sacrifice, Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Purge Soul, Stormshield, Warlord

+ Elites +

Doomglaive Dreadnought [9 PL, 162pts]: Gate of Infinity, Heavy psycannon, Nemesis doomglaive, Storm bolter

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 245pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Paladin (Halberd): 4x Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Nemesis Warding Stave, Storm Bolter

Dreadnought [8 PL, 138pts]: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 230pts]: Astral Aim
. 9x Interceptor (Falchions): 9x Storm Bolter
. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions



Yes, it's a cool list, though lacks the cheap screening units of mine and is not as well optimised for the Hammerhand plus fight twice strat combo, for this a large paladin squad is a must in my opinion.. If I was to run pure GK I think 3 units of servitors are a must. You need something to screen out the nastiest of deep strikers. Screening units don't have to be numerous or tough to be the effective. Cullexus assassins are another quality option though, great screens and immovable objective sitters.

I can imagine 3 Apothecaries healing each others wounds would be a pain to deal with.

Characterhammer(sub 10 wound) is definitely the way to go with GK in their current state. And I'm actually really cool with that. It makes your Grey Knights feel like Grey Knights should. Each unit can chew through many squads especially troops and cheap objective sitters alone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 16:17:42


I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Nym wrote:
Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.

They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.

There, I fixed Grey Knights !

Well, I'd prefer to see them being hit from shooting by a malus of -1 due to their ''aegis'' armor.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

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 wuestenfux wrote:
 Nym wrote:
Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.

They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.

There, I fixed Grey Knights !

Well, I'd prefer to see them being hit from shooting by a malus of -1 due to their ''aegis'' armor.


That rule is called "The shrouding" fyi

Aegis Armour protects them from dark magic.

I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Reemule wrote:
Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.

In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.



Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.


Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.

Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.


My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.

Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.


I give you BA and GK in 8th ed as models people can't use. Well, they can use them if they want to lose. At what point is a squatting more intellectually honest?

If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.

Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.

Reemule wrote:
Some guy wins a 35 man event with pure GK..

I’ll say.. So? I think the only take away I have from that is.. he is good and lucky?

68 =/= 35

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...

In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.

I'd be tempted to lean towards +1A than +1W, but I do think their stat line needs a tweak.

One area I definitely agree with you on, though, is the need to redo their points structure so that you pay to add the storm bolter and force weapon to the basic GK - then you can cost the special weapons accordingly.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Penance for 5th edition. Maybe after one more decade or so of suffering you can be allowed to have a strong army again.

Thank you for the very constructive post.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm all for adding +1A to each PA model, regular smite for characters, drop cost of psychic onslaught to 1CP, remove psybolt ammo as a strat and make it a generic ammo for bolters and stormbolters only which cannot be used with bolter discipline (as SIA for Deathwatch).

That would certainly make for an interesting starting point - would you tweak any points costs, or keep them as-is for now?

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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I think I've come up with what I feel is a properly optimised character based pure GK list.

Battalion

Draigo + gate, hammerhand
Voldus + gate, hammerhand, sanctuary

10 Strike Squad w/falchions + Hammerhand
5 Strike Squad w/falchions + Gate
5 Strike Sqaud w/falchions + Gate

10 Paladins w/halberds + hammerhand, Paragon w/hammer
Apothecary, w/hammer + sanctuary, warlord, FTTF, relic hammer
Apothecary, w/hammer

Vanguard

Techmarine w/Stormbolter + Astral Aim
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile + Astral Aim
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile + Gate
Venerable Dread w/Las & Missile + Gate
4 Servitors
4 Servitors
4 Servitors

It is optimised for the 2 most powerful strats, Psybolt and fight twice.

Just enough CP to actually use them.

Maximised utilisation of hammerhand with 10 halberd Paladins.

Some cheap units to score and screen.

I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
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If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.

Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.

Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.



How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?



   
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Karol wrote:
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.

Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.

Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.



How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?

I really hope they don't phase them out and I don't think they will. If they made them more competitive then more people will buy them. I mean custodes are a very similar army, most people probably play custodes because they are competitive, if they became crap most people will stop playing them like GK's, people like myself that still collect armies no matter their competitiveness are the minority I think. Well I hope so.



   
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The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.
   
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 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.


Well the psycannon should be longer range or D2 - 36" would be handy. As it stands GK pay ~6 points for their force weapon. A psycannon is 8 now, so they're paying 14 for effectively the same thing as an autocannon, but shorter range.

It's very evident that GW wants them to be a close range army, but some of their tools don't match the army.

A nice formation that boosted their attacks and got them into combat more easily would work, too.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
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Considering their close-combat focus and inability to survive long enough to do their thing, I'm halfway tempted to suggest that maybe T1 Deepstrikes should be the Grey Knight's "thing", and then their costings subsequently balanced around that (if needed).
Also delete that stupid Daemons stratagem, Vengeance for Cadia, and all the faction gut-punch stratagems in general.
   
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 _SeeD_ wrote:
The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.


Yeah and its worse because vehicles and walkers etc. have never been stronger. I want and equivalent Pyrithite spear upgrade for GK's.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut







Karol wrote:
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.

Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.

Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.

How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?

Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.

Especially when it happens in threads which do not directly related to the faction being whined about.

Things like the recent Community Survey, attending events, or sending letters/emails to GW directly are much better feedback channels than bitching on a forum they don't interact on.

As for servitors, I think you've ID'd the only pack currently available from GW. In theory you could kitbash something, maybe with a mix of parts from zombies, AdMech and/or Necrons, but it isn't something I've looked into.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
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Mike712 wrote:


This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 10:20:58


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 DominayTrix wrote:



I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.


This would bring two types of problems, Against non demon armies GK would be just as bad as they are now, maybe worse if GW decided the new ability would cost point. And then against demons giving out -1 anti inv does matter much, when the demon player just pays 2CP and brings the unit back for free as long as it aint a named character.





Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.

On the GW facebook they just remove posts asking when they will fix GK or why they nerf them. Or at best the posts get ignored. So where is the place or what is the way to deliver the message to GW? there was a community survery before the last CA and that went horrible for GK. non of the changes reverted that made GK worse, point drops on units other marines got point drops too, but not on the overcosted troops. no stat changes etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 10:36:15


 
   
 
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