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@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

BrianDavion wrote:Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

I agree. Kriegers aren’t good enough for this, and Scions shouldn’t be in the running since I don’t think OP wants the entirety of the Astra Militarum, just the Militarum Regimentos.

DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Literally just making up the screaming in terror. Scions would march straight into Nurgle’s navel just after walking through a Khornate nightclub.
Your assault brigades are nothing compared to precision possible with a Militarum Tempestus Surgical Strike Brigade. Squads of Scions air dropping in or grav-chuting in from a flight of Valkyries. The Valks fly over at supersonic speeds and the Scions safely make it to ground while the other Scions drop from the Stratosphere with nothing but an anti-thermal shield equivalent of a blanket. Then the Valks come back doing a mixture of strafing runs and hovering for aerial fire support.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Sisters don't fall to Chaos at all - whereas Marines - well whole Legions fell......and whole Chapters still do.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Literally just making up the screaming in terror. Scions would march straight into Nurgle’s navel just after walking through a Khornate nightclub.

That's funny, because one of the two has a rule that makes them literally immune to morale losses from shooting (on top of orders to make them immune to every other morale issue) while the other has to roll a D6 every time they take losses to see if more of the squad breaks and runs. And it sure as hell isn't the DKoK having to make that roll.

Your assault brigades are nothing compared to precision possible with a Militarum Tempestus Surgical Strike Brigade. Squads of Scions air dropping in or grav-chuting in from a flight of Valkyries. The Valks fly over at supersonic speeds and the Scions safely make it to ground while the other Scions drop from the Stratosphere with nothing but an anti-thermal shield equivalent of a blanket. Then the Valks come back doing a mixture of strafing runs and hovering for aerial fire support.

Valkyries are Imperial Navy, not Militarius™ Trademarkus™. Any regiment can be deployed that way and receive the same Imperial Navy fire support.

PS: citation on the orbital drop bit? I assume you're omitting the grav chutes, unless you're suggesting literally dropping Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squads from orbit as kinetic bombardment shells? Though I suppose that would be as good a use as any for them...

The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

BrianDavion wrote:Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

I agree, which is why I'd probably chose Cadians or Catachans out of the well-known regiments, or maybe Steel Legion (for the hostile environment aspect). If I had to choose a specific regiment, then either the Tanith First and Only or the Catachan 2nd (the Cadian 8th would be in there, but I don't know what is left of them after the events of Cadia... )

My reasoning for the Terran regiments is that they basically get all the fancy toys as well as being able to recruit from pirate-hunting voiders or hive scum from the biggest warren of humanity in the galaxy. They also have literally the longest traditions of Imperial service.

Mr Morden wrote:

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Sisters don't fall to Chaos at all - whereas Marines - well whole Legions fell......and whole Chapters still do.

I kind of get the feeling this is because the Sisters that could fall to Chaos in the future have already fallen to being ten seconds late to morning prayer or ironing their habit wrong or something, and died in combat after being reassigned to the Repentia squads...

Peregrine wrote:PS: citation on the orbital drop bit? I assume you're omitting the grav chutes, unless you're suggesting literally dropping Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squads from orbit as kinetic bombardment shells? Though I suppose that would be as good a use as any for them...

There have been some examples of Valkyries modified for basic void transit, and used to deploy Scions against void craft or onto planets.

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

Peregrine wrote:DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Why would the MT need tanks and artillery? They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil. They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

However, guardsmen, including the DKoK, could be deployed in ANY theatre, regardless of their skills - and that can be a good thing, or terrible.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Bobthehero wrote:The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

Correct. There's a bit of fluff that outlines Scions making a high-orbit jump in their carapace, and slipping past because of their smaller signature. The main battle, conducted by the Flesh Tearers, is going poorly, until Scions do what the Marines cannot, and disable the guns. It's not to say Marines *couldn't* do that (Scouts could), but in that battle, the resources were not available.

DKoK in this battle wouldn't have been able to establish a landing zone for their artillery, let alone disable the guns.

That's funny, because one of the two has a rule that makes them literally immune to morale losses from shooting (on top of orders to make them immune to every other morale issue) while the other has to roll a D6 every time they take losses to see if more of the squad breaks and runs. And it sure as hell isn't the DKoK having to make that roll.

Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Valkyries are Imperial Navy, not Militarius™ Trademarkus™. Any regiment can be deployed that way and receive the same Imperial Navy fire support.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

Peregrine wrote:DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Why would the MT need tanks and artillery? They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil. They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

However, guardsmen, including the DKoK, could be deployed in ANY theatre, regardless of their skills - and that can be a good thing, or terrible.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Bobthehero wrote:The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

Correct. There's a bit of fluff that outlines Scions making a high-orbit jump in their carapace, and slipping past because of their smaller signature. The main battle, conducted by the Flesh Tearers, is going poorly, until Scions do what the Marines cannot, and disable the guns. It's not to say Marines *couldn't* do that (Scouts could), but in that battle, the resources were not available.

DKoK in this battle wouldn't have been able to establish a landing zone for their artillery, let alone disable the guns.

All well said.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it. And if we're talking about stratagems then we can laugh at the fact that apparently "how to disembark from a moving transport" isn't part of the curriculum at Hogwarts, since the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only IG faction that can't use the stratagem to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why would the MT need tanks and artillery?

Because that's how combined-arms warfare works? What exactly do Militarius™ Trademarkus™ do if they run into anything that can't be dealt with by small arms fire? Give up and die? Imagine a spotter a mile away radios in mortar fire from guns multiple miles away? A DKoK grenadier unit can dig in and call for counter-battery fire to neutralize the threat, but what is the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ solution? Grab their wands and yell PROTECTO at the incoming mortar shells until they die?

They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are a really inefficient way of doing what a Manticore barrage can do.

They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

Maybe 1v1 against a basic guardsman, but against grenadiers/kasrkin/etc? I don't think so. Same equipment, same level of training, except incorporated into a proper combined-arms force instead of used in suicide drops without support.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Heretical lies, nothing more. The Emperor is perfect and would not create mutants in His image.

Just gonna slip over the problems with tactically, huh?

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

I would argue that it’s GWs laziness and not making the weapon longer ranged. But that’s just me.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Gonna skip the tank suppliers, too, huh?

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

In terms of battle tactics I do have some reserved. I do think that Space Marines are probably more tactically sound then Sisters of Battle, but there is a high level of varience between Chapters. Flesh Tearers aren't well known for their strategical genius. Sister of the Sacred Rose though are known to highly gifted in that domain. While on average, Space Marines are probably have more tactical and strategical acumen, some Sisters probably match them rather well.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine. The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

I'm not convinced that Imperial Guard commanders are worst then Space Marines ones. Obviously, both operate vastly different force. At most a Space Marine officer will lead about a thousand men. An Imperial Guard high staff offcier will command millions if not even more. A Space Marine commander must command his forces in very different theatres of war from space battles to planet side passing by special operations. Most Imperial Guard officers have a much more limited field of expertise. Imperial Guard officers outnumber Space Marines officer to such a degree, it's difficult to compare them either. Overall, I would say the pool of talent from which the Imperial Guard can draw is so vast that at the organisational level, the Guard possess greater tactical acumen then the Space Marines.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Gonna skip the tank suppliers, too, huh?

What is there to discuss? Who supplies the vehicles is irrelevant. A DKoK LRBT is a DKoK unit incorporated into a DKoK regiment. A Vulture gunship making a strafing run for a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squad is an Imperial Navy unit that is not part of the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ faction, and could provide that exact same support to a Cadian or Tallarn unit. You don't get to claim credit for Imperial Navy units when they aren't part of your faction.

Aren’t Elysians gone now as a playable army for the future? People with their stuff can play, but besides recast and private sales, Elysia is down for the count.

They still exist in the fluff regardless of whether or not the model kits are available NIB.

We’ve stated multiple times that Scions don’t make up a standard combined arms force.

Yes, and that's why they suck. DKoK grenadiers/Cadian kasrkin/etc have the same superior training and equipment but also have combined arms support when needed. Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't, and you somehow think this absence is a virtue.

Scions will complete the objective if possible. Otherwise they will evac to a safer position.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ will take the objective as long as it's easy, but if things get difficult they'll give up and run away. Perhaps that's why they have commissars attached to maintain order, while DKoK regiments have commissars attached to act as advisors.

Besides, if we want silly rules like you, Scions can use preliminary bombardment from allies off the battlefield as well. That would give enough time to take out the enemy and evac.

So now you're just going to make up random rules for off-table support from non-Militarius™ Trademarkus™ units as your argument for how awesome Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are?

Oh yeah, definitely, but for some reason, my non-insane commander actually wants that promethium refinery intact. I could only wonder why we didn’t shoot at it even a little bit.

Oh, you want it intact and can't use any heavy weapons? Better leave the plasma and melta guns at home and hope the enemy doesn't have anything but light infantry to oppose them. And god help your poor Militarius™ Trademarkus™ if the enemy brings a tank.

They indeed have an established unique fighting style in melee that sets them apart from the regulars.

Grenadier: WS 3+

Militarius™ Trademarkus™: WS 4+

Enough said.

Again, Scions aren’t used in combined arms situations, they are for strikes and surgical strikes. They open up a hole in the line for everyone else to follow.

Again, grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can do that exact same job except they can also do more because they are integrated into combined arms forces. The only thing special about Militarius™ Trademarkus™ is the sheer idiocy of their fluff.

What is there to discuss? Who supplies the vehicles is irrelevant. A DKoK LRBT is a DKoK unit incorporated into a DKoK regiment. A Vulture gunship making a strafing run for a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squad is an Imperial Navy unit that is not part of the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ faction, and could provide that exact same support to a Cadian or Tallarn unit. You don't get to claim credit for Imperial Navy units when they aren't part of your faction.

It’s not “a part” of the regiment, but it is assigned to the regiment to be used at the discretion of the Commanding Officers. This is also why Valks assigned to Scion regiments get Regimental paintjobs, as they have been incorporated into the regiment.

They still exist in the fluff regardless of whether or not the model kits are available NIB.

Didn’t matter, if your going to be a rules stickler no lore tie-ins (but for some reason it’s entirely OK for you to bring up ridiculous month long artillery barrages and act like that’s the answer for everything), then Elysia is all but gone for some legacy rules. That will die.

Yes, and that's why they suck. DKoK grenadiers/Cadian kasrkin/etc have the same superior training and equipment but also have combined arms support when needed. Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't, and you somehow think this absence is a virtue.

It shows a completely different operation style that’s unique from foot-slogging meatmash.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ will take the objective as long as it's easy, but if things get difficult they'll give up and run away. Perhaps that's why they have commissars attached to maintain order, while DKoK regiments have commissars attached to act as advisors.

Kriegtards get blown up and die, and the ones that don’t slit their own wrists.

We also went over this already. Short attention span? Commissars don’t maintain order. They are battle leaders. Commissars with Kriegtards are “advisors” because they’ll be killed because Kriegtards are actually insane.

So now you're just going to make up random rules for off-table support from non-Militarius™ Trademarkus™ units as your argument for how awesome Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are?

Make up rules? Do you not know about the Preliminary Bombardment stratagem?

Oh, you want it intact and can't use any heavy weapons? Better leave the plasma and melta guns at home and hope the enemy doesn't have anything but light infantry to oppose them. And god help your poor Militarius™ Trademarkus™ if the enemy brings a tank.

Hmm. 3+ BS Taurox Primes with Battle Cannons, Missle Launchers, Gatling Cannons, autocannons, hot-shot volley guns. The Taurox Primes would be in their element, really, zipping about the streets, using its small size to find vantage point in ruins, etc.

Also, man-portable hot-shot volley guns and grenade launchers. Scions would probably shoot straight enough that it would be fine to bring plasma and melta, too.

Grenadier: WS 3+

Militarius™ Trademarkus™: WS 4+

Going by this logic, Kriegtards don’t get month long artillery barrages.

Again, grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can do that exact same job except they can also do more because they are integrated into combined arms forces. The only thing special about Militarius™ Trademarkus™ is the sheer idiocy of their fluff.

 Apple Peel wrote:
It’s not “a part” of the regiment, but it is assigned to the regiment to be used at the discretion of the Commanding Officers. This is also why Valks assigned to Scion regiments get Regimental paintjobs, as they have been incorporated into the regiment.

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

Didn’t matter, if your going to be a rules stickler no lore tie-ins (but for some reason it’s entirely OK for you to bring up ridiculous month long artillery barrages and act like that’s the answer for everything), then Elysia is all but gone for some legacy rules. That will die.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, since when did I claim that rules are all that matters? In fact, as you point out I've made plenty of references to the fluff. So no, the fact that the Elysian range is OOP does not remove them from the fluff.

It shows a completely different operation style that’s unique from foot-slogging meatmash.

I guess you're going to ignore the part where DKoK are not just foot slogging trench warfare? In fact, in 7th they had an entire army list built around grenadiers in Chimeras with tanks and artillery in support. IOW, playing like the storm troopers that Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they still were.

Commissars don’t maintain order.

Oh really? Then why are they present? Why don't they have a senior officer instead of a person specifically trained to enforce disciple at gunpoint?

Make up rules? Do you not know about the Preliminary Bombardment stratagem?

A weak attack that involves calling for units that are not Militarius™ Trademarkus™ to help? Not really helping your case here.

Hmm. 3+ BS Taurox Primes with Battle Cannons, Missle Launchers, Gatling Cannons, autocannons, hot-shot volley guns. The Taurox Primes would be in their element, really, zipping about the streets, using its small size to find vantage point in ruins, etc.

Wait, I thought we had to take the objective intact? Now you want to shoot battle cannons and other assorted heavy explosives into the building? Make up your mind.

PS: you know what's really great in urban combat? A Hellhound squadron. Which grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can have, and Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can't.

Kasrkin and Grenadiers aren’t the ones using the tanks and such. That’s just regimental support.

Err, what? Unlike Militarius™ Trademarkus™ kasrkin/grenadiers/etc are part of a conventional regiment. A squad of grenadiers isn't calling in help from an armored regiment, they're fighting alongside their own regiment's LRBTs. A Militarius™ Trademarkus™ unit has no such support within their own regiment and has to call on outsiders to help.

The Schola Progenium was written poorly, I’ll give you that. But, otherwise Scions are good for lore. The stuff from the Ordo Tempestus section from “Regiments of the Militarum Tempestus” through “Tempestus Millennium” was good.

IOW, if you ignore the defining thing that makes Militarius™ Trademarkus™ what they are then they're fine. Though, if you're so insistent on rejecting the defining element of your faction I really have to wonder why you like them so much.

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training.

And yet their primary reason for existing is to enforce discipline and obedience with the threat of execution. That's why, before graduation from torture Hogwarts, they're required to shoot one of their friends to demonstrate their willingness to obey and enforce orders without question. If Militarius™ Trademarkus™ had someone attached purely for tactical knowledge then it would be a veteran officer chosen for their tactical ability and victories over the enemy, not their willingness to shoot their own troops.

(Let's not forget that, purely by the rules, commissars have no leadership or command ability and their only rules are direct LD buffs to avoid having models flee. To get any command ability at all you have to give them a warlord trait that lets them have the same orders that a platoon commander in a conventional regiment gets to use, well short of what even a basic company commander has.)

This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

Nothing I could say could be worse than the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ fluff published by GW.

@Peregrine

I find it funny that you find Scholam ridiculous to the point of calling it Torture Hogward, but love the Krieg fluff despite the fact it's pretty much the same thing. Kriegs are reduced to numbers instead of a fake "biblical" name. Both are trained from infancy. Both have an appaling attrition rate and are submitted to sadistic tests, training and rituals designed to weed out the weak. The only difference is that "Torture Hogward" is for fancy people while "Torture Disney Land" is for everyone.

epronovost wrote:
@Peregrine

I find it funny that you find Scholam ridiculous to the point of calling it Torture Hogward, but love the Krieg fluff despite the fact it's pretty much the same thing. Kriegs are reduced to numbers instead of a fake "biblical" name. Both are trained from infancy. Both have an appaling attrition rate and are submitted to sadistic tests, training and rituals designed to weed out the weak. The only difference is that "Torture Hogward" is for fancy people while "Torture Disney Land" is for everyone.

The difference is that Krieg has always been a dystopian hellscape full of martyrs eager to atone for centuries-old sins, and the fluff never pretends that the DKoK are elite in any way besides their ability to willingly martyr themselves in the worst battlefield conditions. The Militarius™ Trademarkus™ idiocy took perfectly reasonable fluff about the storm troopers (other than classic GW failures of scale with the numbers, but one storm trooper regiment isn't really any worse than one million space marines) and ruined it for the sake of throwing more ™ symbols all over everything. And then we're supposed to pretend that being taught to shoot their friends for talking in potions class magically turns them into elite soldiers. Their fluff even emphasizes how great their mindless obedience is, when in the real world what makes elite units valuable is their initiative and experience at adapting when the original orders need to be discarded. That's not how you make elite soldiers, it's how you make a band of sociopaths and murderers that are more dangerous to their allies than the enemy.

To highlight one of the worst abominations the fluff has a commissar candidate openly stating his willingness to shoot his best friend as a loyalty test, not because the friend is a traitor, but because he is willing to do whatever it takes to escape torture Hogwarts. The commissar is no longer the paragon of duty and loyalty from the established fluff and is reduced to a selfish thug murdering whenever it's convenient and sacrificing any principles necessary if it means continued survival. And we're supposed to believe that magically, upon graduation, this thug becomes a brave and heroic leader who will inspire others to fight to the death by leading from the front himself and not taking one step backwards, instead of a coward who would save himself by retreating and shooting any witnesses who could reveal the truth.

Note- Thread Exalted by Mistake.

To me the greatest "crime" of the Militarum Tempestus book is to have spend so many pages talking about the Scholam and only two lines talking about the Tempestor Academy where Scions finish their training. The concept was "sound" and completely pulled from the movie Soldier, a 1998 science fiction flic with Kurt Russell in the leading role. If you have seen the first five minutes of the movie, you pretty much have seen how Scion are trained.

PS: save yourself, don't watch the full movie, it's terrible.

Apple Peel wrote:

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Spoiler:

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Apple Peel wrote:

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Spoiler:

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

And you clearly haven't read Vraks, aswell as not having read this thread:

And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

 Peregrine wrote:
The difference is that Krieg has always been a dystopian hellscape full of martyrs eager to atone for centuries-old sins, and the fluff never pretends that the DKoK are elite in any way besides their ability to willingly martyr themselves in the worst battlefield conditions. The Militarius™ Trademarkus™ idiocy took perfectly reasonable fluff about the storm troopers (other than classic GW failures of scale with the numbers, but one storm trooper regiment isn't really any worse than one million space marines) and ruined it for the sake of throwing more ™ symbols all over everything. And then we're supposed to pretend that being taught to shoot their friends for talking in potions class magically turns them into elite soldiers. Their fluff even emphasizes how great their mindless obedience is, when in the real world what makes elite units valuable is their initiative and experience at adapting when the original orders need to be discarded. That's not how you make elite soldiers, it's how you make a band of sociopaths and murderers that are more dangerous to their allies than the enemy.

To highlight one of the worst abominations the fluff has a commissar candidate openly stating his willingness to shoot his best friend as a loyalty test, not because the friend is a traitor, but because he is willing to do whatever it takes to escape torture Hogwarts. The commissar is no longer the paragon of duty and loyalty from the established fluff and is reduced to a selfish thug murdering whenever it's convenient and sacrificing any principles necessary if it means continued survival. And we're supposed to believe that magically, upon graduation, this thug becomes a brave and heroic leader who will inspire others to fight to the death by leading from the front himself and not taking one step backwards, instead of a coward who would save himself by retreating and shooting any witnesses who could reveal the truth.

I actually... kind of agree with this... the new fluff for the stormtroopers is overwhelmingly stupid. That doesn't mean that the CONCEPT of stormtroopers is bad, merely GW's interpretation.

People are trying to compare apples and oranges here. Which one is better: a sledgehammer or a scalpel? The real question is better for what?

If you need to knock down a wall you use a sledgehammer (krieg), if you need to do heart surgery you use a scalpel (stormtroopers). There is no "best" imperial guard regiment or "best" anything because it matters WHAT YOU ARE USING THEM FOR. I'm sure there are scenarios where an imperial guard regiment full of conscripts outperforms a space marine contingent on the battlefield by some metric, but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other or vice versa.

Just because the new stormtrooper lore is stupid doesn't mean they don't have a purpose militarily. Just because the krieg regiments specialize in attrition warfare does not mean that they do not have elite units within them capable of performing roles similarly to stormtroopers.

This entire discussion is stupid, and that is saying something because I've been willing to argue about some pretty stupid stuff on this board at various points.

Haighus wrote:Straken is definitely tactically a very astute commander, although I would not say he is above a typical Chapter Master. Strategically, I don't think there is much to go on for him.

Yarrick, on the other hand, is certainly noted as being both a strategic and tactical genius, although probably not on the level of Creed and Macharius. He wasn't simply the only competent commander on Armageddon (there were others for s start, they were just outranked and ordered to their deaths by von Strab), he was able to hold out in Hades Hive for an extended period of time with vastly inferior forces, and was able to counter every strategy devised by Ghazghkull. Some of these were strategies tailor crafted to play psychological warfare on Orks, which is impressive in it's own right. His strategic and tactical nouse was recognised enough that he was put back into a position of high command for the Third War, highly unusual for a Commissar. This has even been reflected in rules, with him being able to give orders in the 6th ed codex (not sure about 8th on this one).

Forgot about that one, yeah, fair point. However, that's no different from what I think most Imperial Fists can do. Yarrick's main tactical advantage over a Space Marine here was not underestimating Ghazghkull, and assuming that, because he was an Ork, he'd be dumb.

As a tactician against Orks, Yarrick was finer than nearly any other.

However, I agree with your overall post- the average for Marines is above the average for humans. However, when considering there is ~1 million Marines, and trillions upon trillions of humans, it is not surprising that some exceptional humans appear that can match or exceed Marines, just as some exceptional Marines could match or even exceed the Primarchs in some areas.

Exactly, but just because we have a few guardsmen reaching that tactical genius tier intellect doesn't mean they should, as an whole, be treated as smarter than the Space Marines, IMO. It's not to say Guardsmen cannot be smarter, but that the average intelligence of Guardsmen is far far lower than the average for Space Marines.

Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

Shouldn't have? Why shouldn't a force described as doing grav-chute insertions NOT have deep strike rules?
I'm noticing a trend of you using game mechanics to "justify" your arguments.I must say I'm not impressed, but if you're going to use that kind of reasoning, I'll use it myself. I'll return to that point later.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it.

This is clearly a fluff point. It's been noted in fluff before that non-aerial units (and hell, in real life too) struggle to do as well in airborne insertions as units trained for the job. In 40k, we can look at the Phantine Campaign, and how certain elite Tanith units needed weeks to train to become adequate aerial drop units. It stands to reason that Scions, who've trained for this specifically, would be adept at it.

And if we're talking about stratagems then we can laugh at the fact that apparently "how to disembark from a moving transport" isn't part of the curriculum at Hogwarts, since the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only IG faction that can't use the stratagem to do it.

We're not talking about stratagems. We're talking about fluff. If you want to focus on the abstraction of the game, might I suggest going somewhere that doesn't have "Background" in the subforum title?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why would the MT need tanks and artillery?

Because that's how combined-arms warfare works?

The combined arms warfare that the Imperium rejects due to fear of traitors? Yanno, like the Kriegsmen before they decided to nuke themselves?

MOST Imperial units, including the Krieg have split regiments, which forces them into very specific niches. To a theatre commander, instead of being left with a bunch of swiss army knives, they have specific tools for specific tasks - and can ONLY fulfil that task. Pointing out the lack of combined arms warfare capability from Scions is pointless, as it applies to ALL Guardsmen forces.

Furthermore, as a result, why even WOULD Scions need combined arms warfare, when they're only being deployed in specific theatres that, say it with me now, would not need artillery and tanks?

What exactly do Militarius™ Trademarkus™ do if they run into anything that can't be dealt with by small arms fire? Give up and die?

Handwaving plasma and melta away as "small arms fire"? You can do better than that.

Imagine a spotter a mile away radios in mortar fire from guns multiple miles away? A DKoK grenadier unit can dig in and call for counter-battery fire to neutralize the threat, but what is the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ solution? Grab their wands and yell PROTECTO at the incoming mortar shells until they die?

Those guns that are on the tabletopbattlefield, or else they can't shoot? Those guns that only have a range of, what 0.2 miles? (Assuming that a 1 inch tall model is 6 foot tall IRL, taking a 240"/20' Earthshaker, and translating that to 1440 feet of range IRL, or just over 0.2 miles)
See what I meant about game stats being dumb? So, we can either ignore that, or we be smart and understand that the rules of the game are abstractions detached from the fluff.

They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are a really inefficient way of doing what a Manticore barrage can do.

Wasn't aware a Manticore could preserve artefacts/people/structures of importance, ignore void shields, gain intelligence, not require a supply train and thus exposing itself to enemy artillery and ambush forces, or secure it's own landing from orbit.

Guess those Storm Eagle rockets really HAVE got advanced.

They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

Maybe 1v1 against a basic guardsman, but against grenadiers/kasrkin/etc? I don't think so. Same equipment, same level of training, except incorporated into a proper combined-arms force instead of used in suicide drops without support.

Similar equipment, LEAGUES of difference in training (years of near-Astartes level indoctrination and tactical training, as opposed to what, simply surviving by either skill or luck), and again - DKoK are NOT combined arms. They're predominantly siege regiments, and lack mobility - which is great in the situations they find themselves in, but they would be terrible in any kind of scouting, light infantry, or tip of the spear type missions. I'm not saying Scions would be better than the Krieg at sieges and full frontal assaults, but that's because that's not their job.

Why are you obsessed with taking a hammer and a scalpel, and then calling the scalpel bad because it can't smash a brick?

Also ironic you say "suicide drops", when it's the Krieg Grenadiers who have often upwards of 80% casualties, and the Scions have far higher rates of survival.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

In terms of battle tactics I do have some reserved. I do think that Space Marines are probably more tactically sound then Sisters of Battle, but there is a high level of varience between Chapters. Flesh Tearers aren't well known for their strategical genius. Sister of the Sacred Rose though are known to highly gifted in that domain. While on average, Space Marines are probably have more tactical and strategical acumen, some Sisters probably match them rather well.

There's always a "some", but it's not wrong that Space Marines, in general, are far better tactically than Sisters.

I'm not convinced that Imperial Guard commanders are worst then Space Marines ones. Obviously, both operate vastly different force. At most a Space Marine officer will lead about a thousand men. An Imperial Guard high staff offcier will command millions if not even more. A Space Marine commander must command his forces in very different theatres of war from space battles to planet side passing by special operations. Most Imperial Guard officers have a much more limited field of expertise. Imperial Guard officers outnumber Space Marines officer to such a degree, it's difficult to compare them either. Overall, I would say the pool of talent from which the Imperial Guard can draw is so vast that at the organisational level, the Guard possess greater tactical acumen then the Space Marines.

I'm comparing battlefield tactics, not overall theatre of war ones. In such a field, Space Marines are superior, due to their combat officers, and even regular troops, being possessed of great tactical skill and the experience gained from decades, if not centuries, of warfare. Imperial Guard battlefield officers don't have that kind of experience.

I'm working on averages when I say "Space Marines are tactically smarter than guardsmen" - so even if we factor in the massive numbers of the Guard, and as a result, how many high level tacticians they must have, there's countless more who have hardly any tactical training at all. Guardsmen have a massive range of skill level, whereas Marines are far smaller in range, and their range is consistently high.

Racerguy180 wrote:You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

Exactly.The lack of combined arms isn't a negative in the terms of 40k campaigns. Sure, it'll suck if you get put in the wrong battlefield, or the enemy have different forces to what you expected, or if you're trying to rebel, but that doesn't really happen with Scions.

Any weakness one army has, another covers it. They do completely different jobs, so trying to compare the job of one regiment to another is completely pointless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:And you clearly haven't read Vraks, aswell as not having read this thread:

And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

I saw that, and disagreed with it strongly.
Yes, MOST of the time, the Imperium fights wars of attrition. They have regiments built for that (Krieg, Cadian, Valhallan) However, that's not to say that the Imperium NEVER fights special-operations warfare, where elite troops are vitally important. If we were to make such a claim that "the Imperium NEVER fights non-meatgrinder battles, and so elite units would be useless", then that's calling the Space Marines useless too - and I really don't think that's the case.

Your claims that "a regiment NEEDS to be mixed, durable, easy to maintain, and fanatically loyal" are based on your belief that the Imperium only fights meatgrinder wars. They do not. That's what a line or siege regiment should be. A light infantry regiment doesn't need that. A drop troop regiment doesn't need that. A cavalry regiment doesn't need that. A mechanised infantry regiment doesn't need that.

The only criteria of what a good regiment should be is "can they perform the job required of them?" In both cases, the Scions and Krieg fulfil this.

So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not really? Scions perform largely similar roles as the Astartes.

I'm seeing what you wrote, and I'm seeing a vast misunderstanding of both what the Imperial Guard is (a diverse and varied organisation with regiments tailored for specific roles that others cannot achieve) and what Scions are.

Honestly, this post here seems incredibly disjointed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not really? Scions perform largely similar roles as the Astartes.

I'm seeing what you wrote, and I'm seeing a vast misunderstanding of both what the Imperial Guard is (a diverse and varied organisation with regiments tailored for specific roles that others cannot achieve) and what Scions are.

Honestly, this post here seems incredibly disjointed.

Again, that's the issue, SPECIALISATION IS AFTER SOME POINT UNSUSTAINABLE IN COST EFFECTIVENESS:

A specialized Regiment has excactly one use.
A regular Regiment has more then 1 use, they can fullfill a vast ammount of roles and win out compared to the specialized regiment in 80-90% battle situations.

A specialized Regiment requires specialized equipment, Specialized Equipment is A expensive B difficult to get the hands on, C maintenance and Supply intensive.
A non specialized Regiment might require more diffrent parts but is not out of fighting strength because one key supply type is out.And if used with low maintenace equipment, (E.G. Chimeras f.e.) still a more usefull tool and combat reliable overall.

A specialized regiment requires constant support from other units, making it harder to use.
A mixed regiment can form AD HOC formation with other mixed Regiments, achieving a similar specialised effect whilest still maintaining other branches. (ALSO CALLED KAMPFGRUPPEN)

Logistics for the imperium are at best ehhh and at worst completely unreliableto cut off, even worse when the regiment requires one specific weapon type, Hellguns or Carapace armor f.e.
there are way more worlds to supply flak armr from f.e.

SO my points still stand, the best regiments from the IoM perspective are regiments that are:

- Durable
- Mixed (in order to allow for ad hoc formations and general lessening of supply issues)
- Maintenance easy (for allowing a formation to remain combat effecive longer)
- Fanatical / or of high morale.