Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Breton wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
CoD is an expansion. It uses all of the core 8th edition rules and unit/army rules with a few minor additions. IOW, it expands the base game.

Apocalypse is an entirely new game. It uses zero rules content from 8th edition and has very little in common with 8th edition other than using the same models, much like two different historical games could use the same Roman legion infantry models.

It's as simple as that, and the fact that there used to be an Apocalypse expansion in previous editions doesn't change the fact that it's an entirely separate game now.

The fact that "it's an entirely seperate game now" means it's not 9th edition. Again. And the fact that it was an expansion for years, and stand-alone spinoffs from GW rarely last long means it will probably be an expansion, again.

Your years of historical perspective mean exactly nothing in this instance. Try not to confuse what Apoc was with what Apoc is. When you have any actual point to make I will take it under consideration.

While we're waiting to see if Apoc as a standalone lasts as long as a standalone as it did as an expansion, lets go have a game of something else. Epic 40,000? Titan Legions? Rats.

Or we can play Apoc? Seeing as how it's exclusively the game my gaming group wants to play now. 8th is dead in my play group. Apoc is our ninth. All the same models, same scale, better game.

So tell me, is your entire argument right now that 1) in the past it was like X there fore I predict it will be like X again and 2) Games that used different models are comparable to a game that uses the same models?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp your talking points.

 Lance845 wrote:


So tell me, is your entire argument right now that 1) in the past it was like X there fore I predict it will be like X again and 2) Games that used different models are comparable to a game that uses the same models?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp your talking points.

No, my current argument is that

Apoc used to be an expansion and is historically more likely to return to such in the future than maintain it's standing as a stand-alone
Apoc and 8th are running concurrently so one is not the update of another.


My entire argument will change as you say things I can.. enjoy.

So tell me, is your entire argument 1) This is how we do it, so this is the way it is 2) I said that's the way it is and what I say goes?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp your talking points.

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


So tell me, is your entire argument right now that 1) in the past it was like X there fore I predict it will be like X again and 2) Games that used different models are comparable to a game that uses the same models?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp your talking points.

No, my current argument is that

Apoc used to be an expansion and is historically more likely to return to such in the future than maintain it's standing as a stand-alone
Apoc and 8th are running concurrently so one is not the update of another.


My entire argument will change as you say things I can.. enjoy.

So tell me, is your entire argument 1) This is how we do it, so this is the way it is 2) I said that's the way it is and what I say goes?

I just want to make sure I fully grasp your talking points.

No.

1) Apocalypse IS it's own game. It doesn't matter what it was in the past. What matters is what it is now. You think in a few years or whatever it will end up a expansion of some other edition of 40k? Sure. Maybe? What relevance does that have now? None.

2) People are using Apoc in place of 40k. Not JUST me and my local group (though we are a part of that) but lots of people.

3) As I said before, GW may very well release an official 9th. It's even likely. In the meantime Apoc and killteam are not expansions but whole other games taking away table space and players from 8th. Not dissimilar from 7th loosing ground to 8th. Again,

You can argue semantics I guess if that makes you feel better. Here. You are right. Apocalypse is not called "Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition" and that fact is very relevant and important.

Apocalypse is the game GW wants us playing 40k battles in.

Look at the past decade of models and scale.

Kill Team is for small battles. Apocalypse is for lager battles.

There is no supported game for middle size battles currently.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no supported game for middle size battles currently.

I disagree, there is one for mid-sized battles.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no supported game for middle size battles currently.

I disagree, there is one for mid-sized battles.

Spoiler:

You mean that weird expansion to Apocalypse that is just a worse way of playing mid-size games?

It will get to the tenth version, then will be just updates of that while still being called 10th edition.

It will be called weird names, like "Warhammer 40,000 10th Edition: Tiger", "Warhammer 40,000 10th Edition: Tiger" and "Warhammer 40,000 10th Edition: Yosemite" etc.

8th edition does not do medium battles well without a lot restraint on both players sides and a good amount of house rules. (Not that 6th or 7th were any better.



A game that has everything from a grot to a titan in the rules simply doesn't work well. Who cares what upgrades I choose for my tactical squad sgt when the knight across the table is just going to roll a few dice and boom whole squad is dead.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no supported game for middle size battles currently.

I disagree, there is one for mid-sized battles.

Spoiler:

See above re: Grot and Titan.

I hope they do, 8th after this long has become horribly boring and stagnant to play

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I hope they do, 8th after this long has become horribly boring and stagnant to play

I'm curious to what makes you feel this way. I would use many words to describe 8th both positively and negatively but stagnant is not one of them. I've never played an edition where so much has changed in a rather short amount of time.

Games Workshop is a company, there will always be a "9th Edition".

The correct question is "How long until the 9th edition"?

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I hope they do, 8th after this long has become horribly boring and stagnant to play

I'm curious to what makes you feel this way. I would use many words to describe 8th both positively and negatively but stagnant is not one of them. I've never played an edition where so much has changed in a rather short amount of time.

To me it's become the most stagnant edition because armies have now become super cookie cutter and 9/10 times you know exactly what the army is going to be doing before the game starts. Chaos gonna be spamming psyker powers, marines, gonna be spamming banner rerolls, guard gonna be spamming tanks, knights gonna have 32 guards and knight.

Oh your playing imperium? So you have the loyal 32, oh chaos? So did you bring 2 t sons daemon princes and ahriman? Or are you taking 3 with your death guard. Deamons? Well know there is going to be a plague bearer squad as a shield.

The use of cp also turns the game into a "did you bring your standard cp farm detachment." There is far less veriety in armies anymore.

Worse more is none of the armies really don't feel unique or different, like marines, they feel like slightly better guardsmen because of how AP works now and with so much AP -2 weapons in the game, marines don't feel like power armored hulks anymore.

Psyker powers were and issue in 7th sure, but now they have been watered down so much every spell is basically a "here is another way to do D3 wounds"

8th has lost the majority of it's stratigic play, it's very boring to play, and honestly not even fun to look at on the table as everyone just runs the same crap.

I miss the complexity that came with 7th, the cool wacky builds that worked. Like forexample, raven wing and deathwing, totally worked in 7th, was it the best? No, was it viable? Yes. Now, it's why are you not playing ultra marines?

Another issue I forgot to add is that armies are getting outta hand, and the 6x4 is just not big enough for the current meta. Remember the game largly has not changed for the last 4 editions, 8th being the biggest set of rule change but the numbers are still the same for t s and what not. Now we have super heavies roaming the table when in 4-6 even seeing a single land raider on the table was like..holy crap a lr!?!? And there is nothing limiting this in games like a 1/4 of your army can not be a single unit. And with point drops your seeing more and more gak on the table, the game has changed from skrimish of small units to every damn game would be considered an apoc game by previous standards

8th is like eating plain oatmeal, it's boring.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
At least one of the people working at my local GW

Just remember ... 9th edition is coming next week.

WTF! I've barely played 8th and now 9th is coming out next week?!?!

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
At least one of the people working at my local GW

Just remember ... 9th edition is coming next week.

WTF! I've barely played 8th and now 9th is coming out next week?!?!

And 10th the week after that. Trust me, my local GW store employee said so.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
At least one of the people working at my local GW

Just remember ... 9th edition is coming next week.

WTF! I've barely played 8th and now 9th is coming out next week?!?!

And 10th the week after that. Trust me, my local GW store employee said so.

There's a real risk of someone visiting the forums and thinking claims like that are true.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I hope they do, 8th after this long has become horribly boring and stagnant to play

I'm curious to what makes you feel this way. I would use many words to describe 8th both positively and negatively but stagnant is not one of them. I've never played an edition where so much has changed in a rather short amount of time.

To me it's become the most stagnant edition because armies have now become super cookie cutter and 9/10 times you know exactly what the army is going to be doing before the game starts. Chaos gonna be spamming psyker powers, marines, gonna be spamming banner rerolls, guard gonna be spamming tanks, knights gonna have 32 guards and knight.

Oh your playing imperium? So you have the loyal 32, oh chaos? So did you bring 2 t sons daemon princes and ahriman? Or are you taking 3 with your death guard. Deamons? Well know there is going to be a plague bearer squad as a shield.

The use of cp also turns the game into a "did you bring your standard cp farm detachment." There is far less veriety in armies anymore.

Worse more is none of the armies really don't feel unique or different, like marines, they feel like slightly better guardsmen because of how AP works now and with so much AP -2 weapons in the game, marines don't feel like power armored hulks anymore.

Psyker powers were and issue in 7th sure, but now they have been watered down so much every spell is basically a "here is another way to do D3 wounds"

8th has lost the majority of it's stratigic play, it's very boring to play, and honestly not even fun to look at on the table as everyone just runs the same crap.

I miss the complexity that came with 7th, the cool wacky builds that worked. Like forexample, raven wing and deathwing, totally worked in 7th, was it the best? No, was it viable? Yes. Now, it's why are you not playing ultra marines?

Another issue I forgot to add is that armies are getting outta hand, and the 6x4 is just not big enough for the current meta. Remember the game largly has not changed for the last 4 editions, 8th being the biggest set of rule change but the numbers are still the same for t s and what not. Now we have super heavies roaming the table when in 4-6 even seeing a single land raider on the table was like..holy crap a lr!?!? And there is nothing limiting this in games like a 1/4 of your army can not be a single unit. And with point drops your seeing more and more gak on the table, the game has changed from skrimish of small units to every damn game would be considered an apoc game by previous standards

8th is like eating plain oatmeal, it's boring.

Glad my games haven’t degenerated into this. Are you sure it’s an issue of the game and not the play group?

I'm not gonna pretend that that's not a possibility. But every store I go to in my town it's the same thing. Every imp play has loyal 32. Every marine player is running the banner Bois, all the chaos are just psyker spam. Even the local tournaments are turning into that.

My personal axe to grind is the game is so watered down now, just does not feel like I'm actually fighting other armies its all just a blob of different looking units of the same faction.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'm not gonna pretend that that's not a possibility. But every store I go to in my town it's the same thing. Every imp play has loyal 32. Every marine player is running the banner Bois, all the chaos are just psyker spam. Even the local tournaments are turning into that.

My personal axe to grind is the game is so watered down now, just does not feel like I'm actually fighting other armies its all just a blob of different looking units of the same faction.

That's definitely not my experience. Anecdotally, We've got about 30-40 local players of different degrees of competitiveness/casualness, and I can honestly say that I pretty much never see the same list twice. There are certainly some things that are consistent over various lists. For example, Chaos players almost always are reliant on some psychic powers. Guard players pretty much always have some combination of infantry and Leman Russes. But even the most competitive players, regardless of format, are always trying new things with their lists and armies.

Yeah and I'm not saying my experiences are law of the land, it's just the more and more I watch and play of 8th the more I loose my interest. I'm actually drifting over to HH because I miss the fun you can have with that rule set.

Like knights in HH WAY cooler with their rules.

Backspacehacker wrote:I'm not gonna pretend that that's not a possibility. But every store I go to in my town it's the same thing. Every imp play has loyal 32. Every marine player is running the banner Bois, all the chaos are just psyker spam. Even the local tournaments are turning into that.

My personal axe to grind is the game is so watered down now, just does not feel like I'm actually fighting other armies its all just a blob of different looking units of the same faction.

Backspacehacker wrote:Yeah and I'm not saying my experiences are law of the land, it's just the more and more I watch and play of 8th the more I loose my interest. I'm actually drifting over to HH because I miss the fun you can have with that rule set.

Like knights in HH WAY cooler with their rules.

damn, I feel bad for you, I've never faced, loyal 32, traitor 16, supersmashcapt, etc...The more I play 8th (w ca18 cover rules) the more I like it.

there are only 2 players beside myself @flgs that have knights and I only play them as part of my Admech.

Your experience is not the norm. Loyal 32 is very common

Just play aocalypse. Its better.

Martel732 wrote:
Your experience is not the norm. Loyal 32 is very common

I admit even I take them because it's just to good. I suppose the only saving grace, or lie I tell myself, is I run 32 scions using the auxilia models and use them as my men at arms for my titan/knight legion.

At this point I'm surprised GW does not just sell a loyal 32 bundle.

What's the loyal 32?

Taking a 3xIG squad 2xOfficer IG detatchment completely barebones for CP.

Even in tournies, it's more a concept than a rule, though. I see a lot more "more than min" IG CP batteries than Loyal32s.

pm713 wrote:
What's the loyal 32?

As said it's a way to get 5 cp for dirt cheap, but the concept is not limited to just guard it's doable with chaos space marines, mechanicum. Basically it's to spam strats

They released a new edition of AOS despite doing the General's Handbook, So I'm sure they will do it for 40k.

I hope we get a 9th ed. 8th is horrible.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I hope we get a 9th ed. 8th is horrible.

I just don't like the reliance on characters... and the infinite re-rolls and invulnerable saves