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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 oni wrote:
For those of you who don't own the codex or didn't read the part of the codex that's relevant to this 'conversation'...

GW has now clarified, in writing, as rules, that your paint job + iconography now 100% makes the decision of what chapter you are.

If you're color scheme and chapter symbol match Ultramatines... You are an Ultramarine and can only use the applicable Ultramarines rules.

If your color scheme and chapter symbol match that of a known successor chapter... You are that successor chapter and must use all applicable rules.

If your color scheme does not match Imperial Fists than you are not Imperial Fists and therefore cannot use the Imperial Fists rules.

There are of course mechanics in place (i.e. stratagems and other written rules) that provide a manner of flexibility, but overall GW has put their foot down; drawn a line in the sand... No more picking and choosing the best rules for game advantage. Your paint job + chapter symbol now 100% matters.

I expect and sincerely hope this carries over to other factions when their codex's are re-released.


This is decidedly false.
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




I have a very easy rule, if they're painted the same they're from the same chapter. Which chapter that is I don't give a feth about. If you want to play yellow UM or green RG go straight ahead. And if your yellow dudes are UM the first game and a week later they're Salamanders, that's perfectly fine as well. Just make it clear pre-game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/11 19:08:39


 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

It’s all about having a fun game. If it’s no fun because your opponent is playing three ‘Chapters’ with the same paint scheme and you’ve had to make an AITA thread about it, it’s entirely your prerogative to ask them to not play that way should you play again. If there’s an easy delineator fine, if not it’s not my job to keep track of your three intermixed detachments mid-game. Make it fun for both players or it isn't worth playing.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




 Grimtuff wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Last time I recall reading this rule it was in the GW tournament organising pack. Ergo it was aimed at being a rule for tournaments.

oni claimed it's in the codex. I am unable to find that in the codex I have with me, and I highly doubt that it was lost when they translated it to the German language. p108 doesn't talk about paint colour, nor do pages 174 and 176. Page 108 at some point even says that you CHOOSE to assign a chapter to a model.


This is what they are referencing.



That still doesn't say anything about paint jobs.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






You're not being a jerk.

The reality is that everyone gets something different out of playing 40K. There's the oft touted "we're all one community" garbage...and it's just that; garbage.

There are people who would play 40K using tokens and soda cans as terrain. Then there are people who would not.

There are people who play with unpainted/incorrect minis, where the game 'rules' are the main thing, and aesthetics/terrain/etc. are literally a hindrance to that goal. To others, it is not.

There are mathhammer/tournament players who don't have any interest in fluff/lore/theme/narrative, etc. There are other people who are the opposite.

There are some people who are interested in narrative, thematic, beautifully painted games/armies/terrain. There are others who couldn't give a damn.

There are people who consider wargaming a lightweight hobby, one of many. Others view it as a passionate life-long hobby.

There are a lot of people who want to "game at all costs", "win at all costs", "bitch at all costs", etc.

There are people who view any expectation of effort as gatekeeping or (insert any generic internet hype word). There are other people who are fine expecting a modicum of effort from other players.

There are people who read the rules and pretend to play them verbatim and are happy to condemn any common sense or interpretation of them. Other people are normal, sane, human beings.

There are some people who are 100% by-the-rules in order to practice competitive gaming. There are other people who are flexible, enjoy creating narrative and house-rules to get the most enjoyment out of their games.

Some people will only enjoy a bone-crushing competitive game. Others will only enjoy a narrative, fun, fluffy game filled with 'poor' but thematic choices.
_______________________________________________________________

What's my point? Simple. Pick-up games are an absolute crap shoot. There is not one 40K community, nor is there one wargaming community. It's 2019 and the internet is awash with "race to the bottom" apologists who are terrified of having a strong opinion on anything. If you disagree with them you're a 'hater', 'troll', _____ist, warmonger, fiend, criminal, etc. You're not a bad person for having an opinion.

It's your army, your game. Unless you're attending a tournament (a private event/product you've actively chosen to attend of your own free will) you're free to choose who you play your games with/against. There are plenty of polite ways to refuse a game, and if the person involved is insulted...good, they can just be insulted. Never let anyone tell you how you should enjoy your game. Find your niche. Find some opponents to have a similar mindset, and go from there. Will you diminish your pool of possible opponents? Sure. But I can tell you, a joyless 2-3 hour game against someone you're not enjoying playing....is wasted time.

If someone cannot accept a polite refusal to play, they're a child and should be treated as such.



 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






nekooni wrote:
 oni wrote:
For those of you who don't own the codex or didn't read the part of the codex that's relevant to this 'conversation'...

GW has now clarified, in writing, as rules, that your paint job + iconography now 100% makes the decision of what chapter you are.

If you're color scheme and chapter symbol match Ultramatines... You are an Ultramarine and can only use the applicable Ultramarines rules.

If your color scheme and chapter symbol match that of a known successor chapter... You are that successor chapter and must use all applicable rules.

If your color scheme does not match Imperial Fists than you are not Imperial Fists and therefore cannot use the Imperial Fists rules.

There are of course mechanics in place (i.e. stratagems and other written rules) that provide a manner of flexibility, but overall GW has put their foot down; drawn a line in the sand... No more picking and choosing the best rules for game advantage. Your paint job + chapter symbol now 100% matters.

I expect and sincerely hope this carries over to other factions when their codex's are re-released.


Could you please provide the page with that 'relevant' part of the codex then, for all of us uneducated Space Marine players?


I'm not at home to give an exact page number, but if I recall correctly a large part of it precedes the new custom (i.e. create your own) chapter tactics and there's more in the Ultramarines and White Scars supplements.

I have the SM codex and the Ultramarines supplement and was quite pleased when I read this as I've always thought it was crappy to pick & choose optimal rules; that just because the model has power armor it can be whatever chapter has the best rules for the current meta. Glad GW finally stepped up to the plate about the issue.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





For clarification from OP, is the concern that your opponent might change a units gear or traits mid game?
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Jimbobbyish wrote:
For clarification from OP, is the concern that your opponent might change a units gear or traits mid game?


To be honest, cheating is not my concern. It's the fact that I have to play at a hyper attentive style whereby I have to memorize multiple rule sets that call my moves into question for various circumstances, while all of them look alike. It's multiplicative effect on my ability to play the game presents a challenge at best, a second job at worst. It's making it less fun for me, but I've been allowing it because people (usually younger than me and just as inexperienced) are trying to find an army that they enjoy. My point is, all the SMs tend to play the same. One might be slightly stronger at melee, another at shooting, but it's not like an entirely different army.

So I either want to ask:

1. Please make your army mono-dex until you properly signify on your models which are different
2. Please paint your models to represent what they are.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Jimbobbyish wrote:
For clarification from OP, is the concern that your opponent might change a units gear or traits mid game?


I think it can be more than that. What if Jumbobbyish:

Traveled to Las Vegas ($500)
Went to LVO (200)
Stayed at a hotel (300)
Brought his army all painted and collected for 2 years painted as Carlsons Goatropers (priceless)
Played 6 games to make it to the final table (3 days of vegas time man)
Was on the Stream (Huge Epeen!)
And then loses the game cause that model with a Storm bolter is actually a Multimelta SUCKER!

Now that is a stupid out of the far left can't happen anology, but how about:

I take an evening away from the Family, I negotiated a kitchen pass, I painted here and there for hours, and I get to the store, and I'm proud I spent hours of late night time memorizing the rules, and its the final decisive moment of the game.. AND ITS A MULTIMELTA SUCKER! And I told you 2 hours ago at Set up so that makes it better.

Yeah Screw you non wysiwyg.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Reemule wrote:

I take an evening away from the Family, I negotiated a kitchen pass, I painted here and there for hours, and I get to the store, and I'm proud I spent hours of late night time memorizing the rules, and its the final decisive moment of the game.. AND ITS A MULTIMELTA SUCKER! And I told you 2 hours ago at Set up so that makes it better.


Thats called losing a game to a player who clearly communicated what his models and rules were, in a setting where you, the opposing player understood and agreed to those rules, then threw a hissy fit when you lost.

But the non-wysiwyg player is *clearly* the problem in this scenario
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Douglasville, GA

Seems kinda extreme there, buddy. Maybe you've had experiences where every opponent you've come across has been gaming the system to eke out more victories, but my experience is just that sometimes (just sometimes) me, or someone else, might wanna just TRY out something new without either buying, building, and painting new models or repainting the ones we got every time we wanna test out something. If it's a chronic thing, I can see being irked about it (cuz if you've spent the last 5 games using the same units, you've had time to make adjustments), but the other 99% of the time? Not a big deal.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sterling191 wrote:
Reemule wrote:

I take an evening away from the Family, I negotiated a kitchen pass, I painted here and there for hours, and I get to the store, and I'm proud I spent hours of late night time memorizing the rules, and its the final decisive moment of the game.. AND ITS A MULTIMELTA SUCKER! And I told you 2 hours ago at Set up so that makes it better.


Thats called losing a game to a player who clearly communicated what his models and rules were, in a setting where you, the opposing player understood and agreed to those rules, then threw a hissy fit when you lost.

But the non-wysiwyg player is *clearly* the problem in this scenario


But go back to the OP... he doesn't want to play you to avoid this situation... so why is he being the jerk?

And realistically, it just created a bad experience for both, and now maybe neither ones is playing 40K anymore. How was this good for the hobby?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 19:51:26


 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Because he wants to put coloured dots on other peoples models?

Other than that, i agree if proxy atleast consistent.

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_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Pandabeer wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Last time I recall reading this rule it was in the GW tournament organising pack. Ergo it was aimed at being a rule for tournaments.

oni claimed it's in the codex. I am unable to find that in the codex I have with me, and I highly doubt that it was lost when they translated it to the German language. p108 doesn't talk about paint colour, nor do pages 174 and 176. Page 108 at some point even says that you CHOOSE to assign a chapter to a model.


This is what they are referencing.



That still doesn't say anything about paint jobs.


Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
You picked STORM LORDS to replace <CHAPTER>

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Grimtuff wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Last time I recall reading this rule it was in the GW tournament organising pack. Ergo it was aimed at being a rule for tournaments.

oni claimed it's in the codex. I am unable to find that in the codex I have with me, and I highly doubt that it was lost when they translated it to the German language. p108 doesn't talk about paint colour, nor do pages 174 and 176. Page 108 at some point even says that you CHOOSE to assign a chapter to a model.


This is what they are referencing.



That still doesn't say anything about paint jobs.


Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
I guess that means if you're color blind and can't paint corresponding chapter colors you cant play 40k. That really sucks.
   
Made in gb
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
You picked STORM LORDS to replace <CHAPTER>


You know exactly what GW mean by this, especially considering it is in line with the WHW tournament rules. Don’t be so obtuse.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Grimtuff wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
You picked STORM LORDS to replace <CHAPTER>


You know exactly what GW mean by this, especially considering it is in line with the WHW tournament rules. Don’t be so obtuse.
Do you have to use Utramarine blue to represent ultramarines? What if you wanted the blue to be less primary and bit more desaturated?

What if you thought Caliban Green was a bit too dark for your tastes and decided to paint it closer to Salamanders green. Am I forced to play my dark angels army as salamanders?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 20:31:49


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
Seems kinda extreme there, buddy. Maybe you've had experiences where every opponent you've come across has been gaming the system to eke out more victories, but my experience is just that sometimes (just sometimes) me, or someone else, might wanna just TRY out something new without either buying, building, and painting new models or repainting the ones we got every time we wanna test out something. If it's a chronic thing, I can see being irked about it (cuz if you've spent the last 5 games using the same units, you've had time to make adjustments), but the other 99% of the time? Not a big deal.


Yeah see that isnt the premise. The OP talked about a pick up game. Not me and my good buddy jim tossed some stuff on the table to try the new release.

Gaming should be fun. If your fun is ruining someone's play and feeling great you won cause they forgot it was a multimelta, I don't want to play you.

Facebook was the best thing for this game. Now I can dial in to the people I want to play. Competitive ITC rules, 2K points, with a chess clock and tournament rules. No more getting to the store and finding out the only player available is that dude that suddenly only has 40 flamers that look like stormbolters cause your playing a grot horde army.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Grimtuff wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
You picked STORM LORDS to replace <CHAPTER>
You know exactly what GW mean by this, especially considering it is in line with the WHW tournament rules. Don’t be so obtuse.
WHW tournament rules are literally House Rules. If GW meant "Paint matters" they would have said "Paint matters" in the rulebook.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 20:40:08


Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ELEVENTY BLOODY ONE (111) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Reemule wrote:

But go back to the OP... he doesn't want to play you to avoid this situation... so why is he being the jerk?


By agreeing to a game, then throwing a fit regarding the outcome of said game. The situation hasnt changed.

Reemule wrote:

And realistically, it just created a bad experience for both, and now maybe neither ones is playing 40K anymore. How was this good for the hobby?


You're absolutely right, you throwing a fit is bad for the hobby and is a very effective way to get someone to not like you.

   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




I went with a DIY chapter just for this. I change rules on the fly based on my moods, and I never soup between chapters.

Still, I would get pissed off too if someone played with a non easily distinguiseable army, with a heavy mix. Thankfully it's not the case. Most play with half unpainted, never souping, just 1 chapter ahahah.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Grimtuff wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Yes it does. How else would your army be Storm Lords if not for a paint job? Learn to infer.
You picked STORM LORDS to replace <CHAPTER>


You know exactly what GW mean by this, especially considering it is in line with the WHW tournament rules. Don’t be so obtuse.


Again, as I explained earlier: The rules literally tell you to pick a chapter, eg BLOOD RAVENS, for your models.
There is no need to infer anything, we have clear instructions, and they do not take the paint on your model into account.

That being said it's of course your right to refuse to play versus e.g Green Dragon themed Iron Hands. But that's your decision and not forced onto you by the rules of this game.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







If you're playing with multiple sub-factions as part of a larger army from one book - be it SM, CSM, or whatever - it needs to be simple and clear to your opponent that these models are from different sub-factions.

I don't think it's an issue if they have to check which is which, but that they are different is what's important.

One of the earlier discussions about this I've seen used a phrase about "not increasing the cognitive load for your opponent", which I quite like.

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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Dysartes wrote:
If you're playing with multiple sub-factions as part of a larger army from one book - be it SM, CSM, or whatever - it needs to be simple and clear to your opponent that these models are from different sub-factions.

I don't think it's an issue if they have to check which is which, but that they are different is what's important.

One of the earlier discussions about this I've seen used a phrase about "not increasing the cognitive load for your opponent", which I quite like.


I have it on the sheet of paper I give them with my list, and announce it to them when I stage my models before putting them on the board. That said, it'll probably be an obsolete problem when Legends and our full codex drops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/11 21:55:23


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Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 oni wrote:
I'm not at home to give an exact page number, but if I recall correctly a large part of it precedes the new custom (i.e. create your own) chapter tactics and there's more in the Ultramarines and White Scars supplements.

I have the SM codex and the Ultramarines supplement and was quite pleased when I read this as I've always thought it was crappy to pick & choose optimal rules; that just because the model has power armor it can be whatever chapter has the best rules for the current meta. Glad GW finally stepped up to the plate about the issue.

I only have the codex, and it doesn't contain anything that tells us that paint dictates chapter, at all. I've checked the pages you're referring to (it's 176 and 174 I believe) and they just don't state what you remember them stating. Now, granted, I don't have any of the supplements since all three chapters I own aren't out yet (and I personally don't run my marines as chapters other than what they're painted as anymore), but I highly doubt that they contain anything like that either.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
If you're playing with multiple sub-factions as part of a larger army from one book - be it SM, CSM, or whatever - it needs to be simple and clear to your opponent that these models are from different sub-factions.

I don't think it's an issue if they have to check which is which, but that they are different is what's important.

One of the earlier discussions about this I've seen used a phrase about "not increasing the cognitive load for your opponent", which I quite like.

In some cases just the models make it clear. For example, all my Mk3 dudes are for the Raptors, and meanwhile my Minotaurs don't even have Power Armor present. They're all part of the same force but my HQ dudes are doing different jobs and know how to do their jobs.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I definitely plan on using my crimson fist army as other chapters, I've spent nearly a year painting a large force with loads of different options to try out and Jim not going to re do a while other army just to try some rules out.

No one calls out eldar players or guard or anything else for having different painted armies and using different rules. As long as everything is WYSIWYG then I don't see the problem running your stuff with different rules.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Across the Rubicon

To the OP,

I empathize with the issue of an opponent running multiple subfactions of the same faction within the same with no discernible indicators. I would probably play them, but ask if it would be possible for them next time to mark which unit is which subfaction. At the same time, I am probably is the bottom percentile of people here that cares about winning games. That said, I can't say I like the idea of mixing subfactions within an army. I know it is entirely probable that it would happen in 42nd millennium, I just think it would be a rare enough thing that it feels like more of a narrative place. In matched play it just feels like the bad wrong/munchkin way of min/maxing ones army to me.

As to the larger play them as they are painted idea. I don't mind any player playing their army as a different subfaction. I mean it can feel a little off with space marines since each chapter's 'thing' is so well known that it seems strange to paint them like said chapter then play them like a totally different chapter. I don't really like the idea of a sudden influx of Iron Hand armies with every kind chapter of emblem and color but the hand and black/white. Again, that just feels like the player is being a fair weather fan in a hobby that takes most a fair amount of time to get models looking nice for game built more on the quality of lore than the rules. But that is just me.

Even then, I can understand not wanting to play the subfaction rules the models are painted as. There are a bunch of reasons beyond, 'they aren't the strongest.' Which really is the only reason I am sort of bothered by it. For me, I have a good number of Kill Team factions I painted up well before Elites. I chose the sneakier subfaction (Stygies VIII and Jormungandr) mostly because I like the color scheme, sneaky subfactions seem like a good fit for Kill Team and are all that common. I never really thought about traits getting added to Kill Team. Now that they are there, I can't say like the sneaky subfaction one mostly because it really doesn't do anything in the games I play. Models are already in cover 90% of time anyways so nothing happens. It is not that my teams are less powerful, it is that I don't feel like I have any interesting options open up with stealthy traits. Compared to my Bad Moons where I load up on Shoota Boys to roll even more dice that don't hit. Still, I will probably run them as painted so at least it helps my group.

In concern with what Oni is stating. I thinking tying paint job to chapter tactic is a hazardous road to travel. I mean my Primaris army is painted very, very, VERY closely to the Raptors chapter. Mostly because when they were just a kill team they were Raptors. However, as I made a Primaris only chapter it felt off to me to go with an existing chapter. So I created the Avenging Eagles. Just the same, every player that knows enough background of 40k to know what the Second Founding is recognizes my army as Raptors. So am I bound to making use of the Raven Guard/Raptors rules, which honestly make my army stronger, or can I the use successor chapter tactics (Rapid Assault for sure and Stealthy unless I try one that fits my army better) which probably makes it a weaker army? It gets very gray very quick.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

If nothing else, I think we see that subfaction is the level of rules that is most on the border between needing designation or not.

There are options that must be clear, such as weapons and war gear.

There are options nobody thinks need modeling, such as warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, or chaplain prayers.

There are also options that could easily be modeled but I’ve never seen called out: reiver grav chutes or grapples, spirit stones, or grenades.

I just realized that while I play 100% wysiwyg, to the extent that I use different models for different regiments, I run multiple astropaths painted identically with different powers. It’s just interesting what we object to.

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