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Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

Yeah, totally forgot that other armies don't have any stratagems and chapter tactics...

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

Yeah, totally forgot that other armies don't have any stratagems and chapter tactics...

I give it 4 months before people are complaining about Marines sucking again

I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

I can understand why GW favours Marines, it makes sense, but it has the potential to cause problems over the longer term.

When new Marine players get into the hobby, they are imagining their dudes gunning down Nids, Daemons, or similar, but what they will more likely get is endless opponents using the same Marine models, with different colour schemes.

 harlokin wrote:
I can understand why GW favours Marines, it makes sense, but it has the potential to cause problems over the longer term.

When new Marine players get into the hobby, they are imagining their dudes gunning down Nids, Daemons, or similar, but what they will more likely get is endless opponents using the same Marine models, with different colour schemes.

just as often what they get is an army thats more or less ineffective getting blown away by guardsmen.

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Don't be silly, Marines should be happy with their mini releases, we can't expect half-way decently strong rules for them too, I mean golly gee!

The amount of hate being thrown at SM on this thread is mind blowing. Let's calm down a bit and let the next month of results pan out post-faq. We also have CA 2019 coming. It should come as no surprise to anyone that each faction tends to have their turn in the sun when a new codex comes out. I for one will be happy to see BT get some love, but I am assuming that they will get hit with the nerf bat after a week or two. It's just the SOP for 8th.

Going back to the original post - it's always best to be inclusive. Sure, have some one-off narrative campaigns, but it is generally a bad move to exclude an entire faction from events.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

You keep doing you, man.

nareik wrote:
An excellent idea for a one off event!

Then you can provide all the armies to marine players that don't have another.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

You keep doing you, man.

we should arrange a play date with martell. (who in fairness was reasonably happy with the state of marines with this 'dex)

Voss wrote:

nareik wrote:
An excellent idea for a one off event!

Then you can provide all the armies to marine players that don't have another.

Great suggestion! Removes the lack of inclusivity. Would probably let ticket sales / entry applications run without that first though. If it sells out without needing to loan armies its a succesful format.

I have been to tournaments with no Astartes lists. Knights and Eldar variants won most games.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Well that's not problem now since marines are playing whole different game now. Where other mortals are working on ground marines are already exploring new galaxies.

tneva82 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Well that's not problem now since marines are playing whole different game now. Where other mortals are working on ground marines are already exploring new galaxies.

From what I've seen (and experienced) marines (outside of pre nerf IH) are mostly on the level of other top tier armies, not above that. The main difference to eg Eldar is that for Eldar its easy to build a weak list, which is really hard to do with Marines now,since there isn't anything that's just plain bad. Servitor spam maybe?

Bharring wrote:
It'll be just like all those 6E/7E tournaments where CWE were banned?

Remember those?

Nope? Me neither.

Because it's a silly idea.

You can keep banning the top of the pile, but that just leaves the next-tallest-nail sticking up and pissing everyone off. Except in addition to an unbalanced mess, you now also have a bunch of people you've excluded.

So be a dick to a bunch of people just so you can have just as imbalanced an event.

Not a good idea.

Some FW Aeldari stuff was banned actually, i played Corsairs and 2 events wouldn't let them play, and unless you took that 1 formation they were not better than other CWE, they were about White scars level of powerful (7th WS).

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Don't be silly, Marines should be happy with their mini releases, we can't expect half-way decently strong rules for them too, I mean golly gee!

Marines have enjoyed by FAR the most new model releases this edition (30). More than the entire combined Xenos releases. More than every other IOM faction combined.

Marines have also enjoyed by FAR the most codex releases now having a supplement for every sub-faction that provides more stratagems, relics and WL traits than any other sub faction by far. My subfaction gets 1 unique stratagem, relic and WL trait. How many do RG, IF, IH, UM, WS and Sallies get again?

Marines have gone from middling competitively (UM managed a 50% win ratio which is greater than, say, Orks who are considered competitive) to the strongest faction bar none. Not only are they the strongest but they also possess the most options.

If you think all of the above is balanced, fair, or should continue I can tell you that you're wrong. It is not good for the hobby. It is not good for hobbyists. Long term it will not be good for GW's bottom line, either.

You forgot "It's op compared to GK"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


If you think all of the above is balanced, fair, or should continue I can tell you that you're wrong. It is not good for the hobby. It is not good for hobbyists. Long term it will not be good for GW's bottom line, either.

what if marines are like pepsi, there are different types of it and flavours, but the one that sells the most is always the classic pepsi. Now not everyone may like it, maybe they like Pepsi lime or cranberry more, but it would maybe be unresonable to expect Pepsi co, sell and price all those bonus flavours the same as the regular Pepsi.

I would try an army banned tourney

Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

Apple fox wrote:
Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

I have been running an IH list but I am not taking a really competitive list, I am using mostly dreadnoughts because they are a lot better in an IH list and I have had them sitting on the shelf forever(had to clean a lot of dust off of them). I did proxy a couple of the new invictor warsuits to try them out as well since they are dreadnought-ish models. I have not been making a character dreadnought to make it untargetable. While my list is not terrible I would be surprised if it would be able to win a bigger tournament.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

I think you don't understand what "never" means.

Or "low tier army".

Sure, several of their stints at the top of the pack have been based on gimmicks, but that's true of most stints at the top of the pack.

I heard of people back in 6th and 7th banning certain factions that were just way out of whack, like the early Grey Knights or the Imperial Knights when they came out as a full fledged faction.

Those were the days when GW wouldn't release an FAQ for years at a time. Now that's not really an issue, and the competitive meta is more mutable and wild than eve before. Yeah, you'll have lots of marine players now, but then the next codex will come out, or the next rule update, or the next neat model, and suddenly a faction that wasn't present at all will come out of the woodworks with some crazy combo.

There's a lot of anti-marine sentiment right now thanks to the controversy of the Iron Hands and how much attention marines have been getting over the past few months. It's the same as the anti-Eldar Alaitoc sentiment, the anti-Knight Castellan frustration, the anti-Tau resentment-from-five-editions-ago. It comes and goes all based on the whims of people that lost one or two games and don't bother adjusting their list or trying a different kind of deployment or using the units they have appropriately.

 Jidmah wrote:
You forgot "It's op compared to GK"

Yeah, but everything is OP compared to GK. Probably even other GK. Somehow.

Apple fox wrote:
Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

II remember those discussions, I also remember arguing that banning an entire army was a bad idea. A better idea would be, if a certain mechanic etc is proving broken, issue a "tourny FAQ" that tweeks it. Most gaming groups use house rules when nesscary, ITC already has house rules with their custom missions.

I'd also personally be fine with tournies adopting a "codex only" stance. baning space marines? bit much. mandating an army that has it's rules spread across 4 supplements, a codex, a white dwarf article and a singing telegram, just use it's codex? seems fair.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

I think you don't understand what "never" means.

Or "low tier army".

Sure, several of their stints at the top of the pack have been based on gimmicks, but that's true of most stints at the top of the pack.

I don't consider super friends or a forgeworld libby that automatically gives you the most busted spell ever imagined a space marine list. They were naughty soup lists. Gladius was quite strong but I find 7.5 edition to be rather forgettable...it was basically experimenting for 8th edition. If you wanted to grab a codex and pick up models in the store. Space marines have routinely been a terrible choice if you wanted a strong army. I should know I've been playing them for 10+ years. Eldar on the other hand (which I have also played for just as long) have routinely had VERY good rules. Even in the edditions they weren't uber busted - you could take them to a local and win just because you played good.

Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Yeah, I think Xeno needs some more experience.