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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Racerguy180 wrote:
it makes sense that the legions would still have these in their chapter armouries/"chapter tactics".

I mean, firedrakes are Cataphractii thundernaters. give them something like attacks made with flame/melta are -2 to wound or something thematic like that.

Pyroclasts could have 9" flamers with +1 to wound with normal statline otherwise would be cool.

all of legions should have a variation on their own special rules. just make them appropriately costed(not that they have a great track record), but maybe with GW doin 'em they might be right (yeah right).

No good explanation for why Night Lords raptors stopped being the best raptors. Or why they stopped using chainglaives. It's a chainblade on a longer handle for feths sake. I don't think the technology could be "lost ".
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it makes sense that the legions would still have these in their chapter armouries/"chapter tactics".

I mean, firedrakes are Cataphractii thundernaters. give them something like attacks made with flame/melta are -2 to wound or something thematic like that.

Pyroclasts could have 9" flamers with +1 to wound with normal statline otherwise would be cool.

all of legions should have a variation on their own special rules. just make them appropriately costed(not that they have a great track record), but maybe with GW doin 'em they might be right (yeah right).

No good explanation for why Night Lords raptors stopped being the best raptors. Or why they stopped using chainglaives. It's a chainblade on a longer handle for feths sake. I don't think the technology could be "lost ".

I sound like a broken record but part of the issue with CSM is they're not treated like they're Legions. They're treated like super underequipped Renegades that lost technology.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
I'm still amused that, after recent evidence *cough*Iron Hands*cough* people are so convinced that the GW rules team will automatically do a better (and/or more balanced) job than the FW team did.
Maybe it's because some of us cannot see GW doing a worse job with certain units.


I take it that you're new to all this?
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it makes sense that the legions would still have these in their chapter armouries/"chapter tactics".

I mean, firedrakes are Cataphractii thundernaters. give them something like attacks made with flame/melta are -2 to wound or something thematic like that.

Pyroclasts could have 9" flamers with +1 to wound with normal statline otherwise would be cool.

all of legions should have a variation on their own special rules. just make them appropriately costed(not that they have a great track record), but maybe with GW doin 'em they might be right (yeah right).

No good explanation for why Night Lords raptors stopped being the best raptors. Or why they stopped using chainglaives. It's a chainblade on a longer handle for feths sake. I don't think the technology could be "lost ".

I sound like a broken record but part of the issue with CSM is they're not treated like they're Legions. They're treated like super underequipped Renegades that lost technology.
Yeah, ever since the 4E CSM codex, GW really has muddled what they wanted CSM's to be.

Legions should be veteran, expensive forces with some specialized focus and HH era remnant gear with daemon engines and Dark Mechanicus stuff thrown in.

Renegades should generally be equipped and organized around Loyalist lines with some marks/daemon engines thrown in and a piratical nature.

As is, for the last decade and multiple editions, GW has been content for these forces to basically be the same thing, without really explaining why the Tyrant of Badab's forces have Heresy era Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Launchers but can't find a Land Speeder, Assault Cannon or a Drop Pod...

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it makes sense that the legions would still have these in their chapter armouries/"chapter tactics".

I mean, firedrakes are Cataphractii thundernaters. give them something like attacks made with flame/melta are -2 to wound or something thematic like that.

Pyroclasts could have 9" flamers with +1 to wound with normal statline otherwise would be cool.

all of legions should have a variation on their own special rules. just make them appropriately costed(not that they have a great track record), but maybe with GW doin 'em they might be right (yeah right).

No good explanation for why Night Lords raptors stopped being the best raptors. Or why they stopped using chainglaives. It's a chainblade on a longer handle for feths sake. I don't think the technology could be "lost ".

I sound like a broken record but part of the issue with CSM is they're not treated like they're Legions. They're treated like super underequipped Renegades that lost technology.
Yeah, ever since the 4E CSM codex, GW really has muddled what they wanted CSM's to be.

Legions should be veteran, expensive forces with some specialized focus and HH era remnant gear with daemon engines and Dark Mechanicus stuff thrown in.

Renegades should generally be equipped and organized around Loyalist lines with some marks/daemon engines thrown in and a piratical nature.

As is, for the last decade and multiple editions, GW has been content for these forces to basically be the same thing, without really explaining why the Tyrant of Badab's forces have Heresy era Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Launchers but can't find a Land Speeder, Assault Cannon or a Drop Pod...

And Night Lords should be a combination of the two. Nix the daemons add the piratical nature.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

There's also politics to consider within GW. A lot of the AoS FW models had the GW team writing rules for them and the Exalted Greater Demons (the FW model versions) all seem a bit "lesser" than their plastic GW counterparts. Meanwhile they hid a huge load of monsters in Destruction (you know that one alliance that had nothing for the longest time). In fact I think the only AoS army that got any real marketing of its AoS models was Gloomspite Gitz.

For some reason the FW arm of AoS just wasn't treated nice. There's every possibility that the FW stuff balanced by the GW team could come up "lesser".



Of course balance is a minefield - I've seen people argue that the same model is both over and underpowered to the extreme with both throwing maths and arguments at each other in theory.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
it makes sense that the legions would still have these in their chapter armouries/"chapter tactics".

I mean, firedrakes are Cataphractii thundernaters. give them something like attacks made with flame/melta are -2 to wound or something thematic like that.

Pyroclasts could have 9" flamers with +1 to wound with normal statline otherwise would be cool.

all of legions should have a variation on their own special rules. just make them appropriately costed(not that they have a great track record), but maybe with GW doin 'em they might be right (yeah right).

No good explanation for why Night Lords raptors stopped being the best raptors. Or why they stopped using chainglaives. It's a chainblade on a longer handle for feths sake. I don't think the technology could be "lost ".

I sound like a broken record but part of the issue with CSM is they're not treated like they're Legions. They're treated like super underequipped Renegades that lost technology.
Yeah, ever since the 4E CSM codex, GW really has muddled what they wanted CSM's to be.

Legions should be veteran, expensive forces with some specialized focus and HH era remnant gear with daemon engines and Dark Mechanicus stuff thrown in.

Renegades should generally be equipped and organized around Loyalist lines with some marks/daemon engines thrown in and a piratical nature.

As is, for the last decade and multiple editions, GW has been content for these forces to basically be the same thing, without really explaining why the Tyrant of Badab's forces have Heresy era Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Launchers but can't find a Land Speeder, Assault Cannon or a Drop Pod...

And Night Lords should be a combination of the two. Nix the daemons add the piratical nature.

I'm fine with Alpha Legion and Night Lords getting access to Marks. I mean it DOES happen, and they aren't flat stat boosts. However, the strats they're based around (and the Relics) need fixing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

My Hopes for the FW Indexes:

Move the Chaplain Dreadnoughts to Legends.

Apply a keyword system for the bulk of FW products that allows them to be in a given list without breaking Battle Forged or <keyword> but not be able to benefit from Faction rules/strats. So an Iron Hands list could have a Leviathan without losing Battle Forged or the Iron Hands super doctrine but the Leviathan itself would just be a Leviathan from the datasheet with no buffs, bonuses or ability to use stratagems. This would allow the game developers to balance Codexes based on the main product line without a few FW models breaking the meta through unforeseen interactions. A less extreme hope would be to just make FW models ineligible for faction based Stratagems.


All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




That's literally the dumbest suggestion so far, which is impressive in of itself.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My Hopes for the FW Indexes:

Move the Chaplain Dreadnoughts to Legends.

Apply a keyword system for the bulk of FW products that allows them to be in a given list without breaking Battle Forged or <keyword> but not be able to benefit from Faction rules/strats. So an Iron Hands list could have a Leviathan without losing Battle Forged or the Iron Hands super doctrine but the Leviathan itself would just be a Leviathan from the datasheet with no buffs, bonuses or ability to use stratagems. This would allow the game developers to balance Codexes based on the main product line without a few FW models breaking the meta through unforeseen interactions. A less extreme hope would be to just make FW models ineligible for faction based Stratagems.


What "unforeseen interactions"? I'm tired of this whole "gw can't balance fw units along with the main line" concept. If the gw team is writing these books then they should be able to balance them according to the main faction rules and units. And if they release new rules the only reason they can't balance them with fw in mind is laziness. They'll have the rules they wrote themselves to go by.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My Hopes for the FW Indexes:

Move the Chaplain Dreadnoughts to Legends.

Apply a keyword system for the bulk of FW products that allows them to be in a given list without breaking Battle Forged or <keyword> but not be able to benefit from Faction rules/strats. So an Iron Hands list could have a Leviathan without losing Battle Forged or the Iron Hands super doctrine but the Leviathan itself would just be a Leviathan from the datasheet with no buffs, bonuses or ability to use stratagems. This would allow the game developers to balance Codexes based on the main product line without a few FW models breaking the meta through unforeseen interactions. A less extreme hope would be to just make FW models ineligible for faction based Stratagems.



You should keep your day job & leave game design to the pros at GW.
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

Guess I struck a nerve with some of you. I know that some of you are quite precious about your FW, but something needs to be done. It's clear that FW is not considered when they design Codexes.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Guess I struck a nerve with some of you. I know that some of you are quite precious about your FW, but something needs to be done. It's clear that FW is not considered when they design Codexes.

Totally. Remember all those broken lists with Iron Hands that used a bunch of FW and not just Repulsors and codex vehicles to do the heavy lifting?

Oh, wait.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Well, that's certainly uncalled forTangoTwoBravo.

For my part, I hope they keep Repressors in normal play and not Legends. Sisters need more vehicles, not less.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/16 20:33:26


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Necrons

My biggest wish is that GW starts printing everything that needs to be paid for in the equipment section and don't expect people to read the Abilities section and understand that means you need to pay for your abilities. So teleportation matrix should be listed under Gauss Pylon wargear.

I don't like the macro rule, I'd like the Gauss Pylon's main weapon to become heavy instead and for its alternate profiles to become a lot more useful. It's too arbitrary whether Magnus, a Knight, a Monolith, a Land Raider and a Shadowsword is Titanic for a weapon to suddenly deal 2x damage. Maybe re-roll failed wounds vs Titanic would be less swingy.

Toholk the Blinded's seize the initiative bonus should be replaced with something different. Free Prepared Positions would be great.

New unique Maynarkh Dynasty Code, Warlord Trait, Relic and Stratagem which is positive for melee and Flayed Ones in particular is a wish of mine.

Tomb Citadel needs rules so it can replace terrain so it becomes usable on a table with terrain and then a less insanely high PL and pts cost.

Tomb Stalker should have RF 2 instead RF D3 weapons, how am I supposed to resolve this if it's in RF range? Is it 2d3 or D3*2? (It's a S4 AP-1 weapon for anyone that wonders, it having a low but variable output is just silly for a monster).

Sentry Pylon's focussed death ray needs a rework, even if it became 35 pts cheaper it'd still be a largely immobile vehicle with a single multi-melta. It's a waste of real life money to buy a model that expensive with so little impact on the board.

I feel like most of the Necron FW units need buffs, but GW gonna GW so I'm not even going to wish for anything good or for GW to not overcorrect something. Whatever happens is going to happen. I did play against CSM FW Dreads the other day and found out they have a 1CP shoot twice Strat, joy and balance.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Guess I struck a nerve with some of you. I know that some of you are quite precious about your FW, but something needs to be done. It's clear that FW is not considered when they design Codexes.

That just means they should start considering fw when they write the codexes. Time to stop with the laziness and inter company politics.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal




FW models should not be in separate Codexes anymore. They should be brought into the main Codexes (presumably if/when 9th edition drops [or an equivalent re-release like 8.5 or whatever]). This may require substantial re-tuning (nerfs/buffs) and thereafter they should be just part of the Munitorum.

NEW Forgeworld releases should be treated like any other GW model release and (in principle, anyway) be balanced/tested/tuned by the main rules team process. No more of this FW v. GW dueling rule-writing teams.

Due to the depth of the FW catalogue for certain factions this may require shipping a few older units to Legends (this would affect a fair chunk of my collection, to be fair). But if this allows us to get rid of this unhealthy schism between FW and the main GW line, it’s worth it.

The only other realistic, fool proof alternative, if they’re going to insist on returning to a two-team rules writing process (after this release, I guess), would HAVE to be what Tango suggested. They have proven a full on ‘one hand ignorant of the other hand’ mentality on both sides whereby rules come out that either totally break a unit in certain combos (e.g., IH Levis) or are dead on arrival because they don’t actually work as FW intended (CSM Dread Claws).
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Melissia wrote:
Well, that's certainly uncalled forTangoTwoBravo.

For my part, I hope they keep Repressors in normal play and not Legends. Sisters need more vehicles, not less.

Agreed. I still want to see them get a super heavy. A baneblade chassis with an inferno cannon would be awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote:
FW models should not be in separate Codexes anymore. They should be brought into the main Codexes (presumably if/when 9th edition drops [or an equivalent re-release like 8.5 or whatever]). This may require substantial re-tuning (nerfs/buffs) and thereafter they should be just part of the Munitorum.

NEW Forgeworld releases should be treated like any other GW model release and (in principle, anyway) be balanced/tested/tuned by the main rules team process. No more of this FW v. GW dueling rule-writing teams.

Due to the depth of the FW catalogue for certain factions this may require shipping a few older units to Legends (this would affect a fair chunk of my collection, to be fair). But if this allows us to get rid of this unhealthy schism between FW and the main GW line, it’s worth it.

The only other realistic, fool proof alternative, if they’re going to insist on returning to a two-team rules writing process (after this release, I guess), would HAVE to be what Tango suggested. They have proven a full on ‘one hand ignorant of the other hand’ mentality on both sides whereby rules come out that either totally break a unit in certain combos (e.g., IH Levis) or are dead on arrival because they don’t actually work as FW intended (CSM Dread Claws).

What's wrong with dreadclaws?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 20:50:43


 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 vict0988 wrote:
Necrons


I feel like most of the Necron FW units need buffs, but GW gonna GW so I'm not even going to wish for anything good or for GW to not overcorrect something. Whatever happens is going to happen. I did play against CSM FW Dreads the other day and found out they have a 1CP shoot twice Strat, joy and balance.



Ok wrong.
Either
A your opponent cheated due to the firefrenzy stratagem explicitly mentioning hellbrutes not the <hellbrute> keyword, making all fw dreads illegible for stratagems for hellbrutes.

B you both didn't know or read the faq to the actual ruleset,which tbh is a gakshow anyways thanks to gw having to throw out 100+ rulessources includong faq.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Necrons


I feel like most of the Necron FW units need buffs, but GW gonna GW so I'm not even going to wish for anything good or for GW to not overcorrect something. Whatever happens is going to happen. I did play against CSM FW Dreads the other day and found out they have a 1CP shoot twice Strat, joy and balance.



Ok wrong.
Either
A your opponent cheated due to the firefrenzy stratagem explicitly mentioning hellbrutes not the <hellbrute> keyword, making all fw dreads illegible for stratagems for hellbrutes.

B you both didn't know or read the faq to the actual ruleset,which tbh is a gakshow anyways thanks to gw having to throw out 100+ rulessources includong faq.

A I knew it didn't work but forgot why My opponent convinced me it changed.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Certainly not.

Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No


See last faq to fw Index forces of chaos.

Also by raw not allowed because of the above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 21:45:11


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Guess I struck a nerve with some of you. I know that some of you are quite precious about your FW, but something needs to be done. It's clear that FW is not considered when they design Codexes.

Totally. Remember all those broken lists with Iron Hands that used a bunch of FW and not just Repulsors and codex vehicles to do the heavy lifting?

Oh, wait.


I bet you'd be hard pressed to find actual codex vehicles in any current lists. I'd much prefer to fight repulsors.

LVO IH

#1:
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Levi
No codex vehicles

#4:
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Levi
No codex vehicles

#5:
Relic Contemptor
Scorpius
Mortis
No codex vehicles

#10:
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Levi
No codex vehicles

#22:
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Chaplain Ven Dread
Levi
No codex vehicles



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 01:26:54


   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Ok good point. Question is, how heavily represented is fw in lists that aren't ih? And if fw was removed do you think that ih would suddenly stop being the hands down dominating faction? What do you think Daedalus, is the problem fw or ih?

I know what I think. The problems ih, not fw.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
give Wraithseer smite plix


Id be happy if its charge power was 3d6 total and not 3d6 discarding the lowest, and the FNP to be a 5++ rather than a 6+++ (means I don't have to bother with firtune), its LD power can just go all together lol.

I think the wraithseer is in a good place otherwise.
I have a nasty idea for a list with two of the ones that I own.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok good point. Question is, how heavily represented is fw in lists that aren't ih? And if fw was removed do you think that ih would suddenly stop being the hands down dominating faction? What do you think Daedalus, is the problem fw or ih?

I know what I think. The problems ih, not fw.


Why not both?

Do we believe that IH would be harder if they were doing Ironstone and DE on T8 W8 3+/6+++ or T8 W14 2+/4++/6+++?

Clearly RG has no real interest in FW, because they don't have a lot of stratagems that benefit those models - at least not that have been discovered, but you'll still find Relic Contemptors and Mortis Dreads (when they're not all out Cent spam or Flyer spam for IH).

The top IF player:

Chap Ven Dread
Chap Ven Dread
Scorpius
Rapier
Rapier
Impulsor
Impusor

You'd have a hard time not finding the Scorpius And Rapiers for them it seems by looking at other lists.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/17 02:42:22


   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok good point. Question is, how heavily represented is fw in lists that aren't ih? And if fw was removed do you think that ih would suddenly stop being the hands down dominating faction? What do you think Daedalus, is the problem fw or ih?

I know what I think. The problems ih, not fw.


Why not both?

Do we believe that IH would be harder if they were doing Ironstone and DE on T8 W8 3+/6+++ or T8 W14 2+/4++/6+++?

Clearly RG has no real interest in FW, because they don't have a lot of stratagems that benefit those models - at least not that have been discovered, but you'll still find Relic Contemptors and Mortis Dreads (when they're not all out Cent spam or Flyer spam for IH).

The top IF player:

Chap Ven Dread
Chap Ven Dread
Scorpius
Rapier
Rapier
Impulsor
Impusor

You'd have a hard time not finding the Scorpius And Rapiers for them it seems by looking at other lists.

What about the faction second most represented in fw csm? Do you think fw is a problem there. Although fw may be represented in many lists I don't think that means it's a problem. Plenty of codex units are auto takes as well. What about tfc, centurions, disco lords and the like?

Some fw units need balancing but a full ban isn't needed.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok good point. Question is, how heavily represented is fw in lists that aren't ih? And if fw was removed do you think that ih would suddenly stop being the hands down dominating faction? What do you think Daedalus, is the problem fw or ih?

I know what I think. The problems ih, not fw.


Why not both?

Do we believe that IH would be harder if they were doing Ironstone and DE on T8 W8 3+/6+++ or T8 W14 2+/4++/6+++?

Clearly RG has no real interest in FW, because they don't have a lot of stratagems that benefit those models - at least not that have been discovered, but you'll still find Relic Contemptors and Mortis Dreads (when they're not all out Cent spam or Flyer spam for IH).

The top IF player:

Chap Ven Dread
Chap Ven Dread
Scorpius
Rapier
Rapier
Impulsor
Impusor

You'd have a hard time not finding the Scorpius And Rapiers for them it seems by looking at other lists.

What about the faction second most represented in fw csm? Do you think fw is a problem there. Although fw may be represented in many lists I don't think that means it's a problem. Plenty of codex units are auto takes as well. What about tfc, centurions, disco lords and the like?

Some fw units need balancing but a full ban isn't needed.


I don't think TTB's intent was to ban FW, but to remove interaction.

I don't have good solutions for you, but I can tell you that the Chaos side of FW units aren't seen as whacky, because they don't interact. I can't heal contemptors or double shoot them, but marines can get them half damage, -1 damage, repair, and character status along with traits. It still doesn't stop me from using contemptors on occasion.

You may see the Brohammer list change with the new ITC missions, but I doubt it will be drastic and FW will still feature.

   
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Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok good point. Question is, how heavily represented is fw in lists that aren't ih? And if fw was removed do you think that ih would suddenly stop being the hands down dominating faction? What do you think Daedalus, is the problem fw or ih?

I know what I think. The problems ih, not fw.


Why not both?

Do we believe that IH would be harder if they were doing Ironstone and DE on T8 W8 3+/6+++ or T8 W14 2+/4++/6+++?

Clearly RG has no real interest in FW, because they don't have a lot of stratagems that benefit those models - at least not that have been discovered, but you'll still find Relic Contemptors and Mortis Dreads (when they're not all out Cent spam or Flyer spam for IH).

The top IF player:

Chap Ven Dread
Chap Ven Dread
Scorpius
Rapier
Rapier
Impulsor
Impusor

You'd have a hard time not finding the Scorpius And Rapiers for them it seems by looking at other lists.

What about the faction second most represented in fw csm? Do you think fw is a problem there. Although fw may be represented in many lists I don't think that means it's a problem. Plenty of codex units are auto takes as well. What about tfc, centurions, disco lords and the like?

Some fw units need balancing but a full ban isn't needed.


I don't think TTB's intent was to ban FW, but to remove interaction.

I don't have good solutions for you, but I can tell you that the Chaos side of FW units aren't seen as whacky, because they don't interact. I can't heal contemptors or double shoot them, but marines can get them half damage, -1 damage, repair, and character status along with traits. It still doesn't stop me from using contemptors on occasion.

You may see the Brohammer list change with the new ITC missions, but I doubt it will be drastic and FW will still feature.

But doesn't that mean the problem is space marines and not fw? Limiting interaction in the way suggested would nerf fw units for chaos and xenos factions as well. Most of those units aren't remotely useful. Why should all factions be punished because of one?

Some solutions are simple. Make de more expensive or change the wording on either it or the leviathan so they don't interact. Send ven chappie dreads to legends. It's oop after all. And errata some of the most egregious sm rules.
   
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CSM don't have a complete line without FW- I suspect a design decision around 2012 or so.

SMs have the Storm raven, talon, and hawk.

CSMs have the Heldrake.

SMs have the Whirlwind, TFC, Stalker, and Hunter for artillery/anti air.

Chaos has crickets.

Now, there are other advantages Chaos has- Oblits are better than DevCents, though comparable.

This post is nit a whinefest! But a lot of FW is *alternatives* for SMs, but *singular options* for CSMs.

Add that there aren't the chapter tactic synergies, and I too worry. The closest answer Chaos has to a Dread is a Helbrute, to the Ven Dread is the same Helbrute, to an Ironclad is a melee Helbrute, and to a Redemptor is...a Contemptor.

EDIT: To be clear, the scorpius, the sicaran, the xiphon, helblade, heltalon, fire raptor, stormeagle, dreadclaw, termite, and contemptors fill holes in the CSM range. Anti-air/skimmer, flying transport, artillery (indirect fire), drop pod, and ven dread/upgraded dread. Other items are nice, but not gaps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 05:28:48


 
   
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I think you guys are forgetting decimators

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
 
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