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Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

ccs wrote:
Those look like perfect Scourge leaders to me.


I fear making elaborate character models but only being able to use them to represent Sergeant First-To-Die simply doesn't appeal to me.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 vipoid wrote:
ccs wrote:
Those look like perfect Scourge leaders to me.


I fear making elaborate character models but only being able to use them to represent Sergeant First-To-Die simply doesn't appeal to me.


But again, nothing has changed here with the models. Your custom Archon with wings not being able to be represented in the rules has nothing to do with the metal archon with huskblade getting replaced with a plastic archon with huskblade, it has to do with the rules for archons with wings (did they ever have wings? I forget) getting removed as an option from the codex.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




And you're excusing that why?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And you're excusing that why?


I'm not? at all? IMO it's the actual problem here. My disagreement with people in this thread has been that I don't agree that kits have gotten significantly less customizable since the "good old days" of fifth ed era kits.

People see all these monopose or dual-pose kits and complain that they're not customizable, when we are moving from a place where half the units in a given army were monopose metal/finecast options.
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And you're excusing that why?


I'm not? at all? IMO it's the actual problem here. My disagreement with people in this thread has been that I don't agree that kits have gotten significantly less customizable since the "good old days" of fifth ed era kits.

People see all these monopose or dual-pose kits and complain that they're not customizable, when we are moving from a place where half the units in a given army were monopose metal/finecast options.


At least on the SM side, I've not see much to stop the customization either. A lot of our local guys dig right in with a scalpel and produce some fantabular looking stuff.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

the_scotsman wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
ccs wrote:
Those look like perfect Scourge leaders to me.


I fear making elaborate character models but only being able to use them to represent Sergeant First-To-Die simply doesn't appeal to me.


But again, nothing has changed here with the models. Your custom Archon with wings not being able to be represented in the rules has nothing to do with the metal archon with huskblade getting replaced with a plastic archon with huskblade, it has to do with the rules for archons with wings (did they ever have wings? I forget) getting removed as an option from the codex.


Well, yeah, that was my entire point.

I literally said that removing options removes the ability of players to represent their conversions on the tabletop.

(And since you ask, no, Archons didn't used to have an option for wings but they did have options for both Skyboards and Jetbikes - either of which would suit me just fine.)

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

the_scotsman wrote:
My disagreement with people in this thread has been that I don't agree that kits have gotten significantly less customizable since the "good old days" of fifth ed era kits.
You are objectively wrong.

Ever put the new Havoc kit together?

   
Made in ca
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




Cronch wrote:
It does also simplify playtesting (don't have to check if X+Y combo doesn't accidentally blow the game up) and theoretically help get newbies into the game by providing out of box experience. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's the logic apparently.


And its dumb because the idea if being able to buy another kit and equip a model with those weapons was something I found awesome as a kid, when I first got into 40k. Its still something awesome now but you never see it anymore. Kitbashing is becoming something that is purely aesthetic, and even then, the primaris range look like theyre not ment to be kitbashed at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Even if you want to be super-picky and say that you could only alter the placing/angle of the waist, arms and heads on the old models, that is still three more opportunities than we have on these new monopose travesties and we still have 60 troops with only ten pairs of legs - if you're really lucky - between them.

It is, IMO, a definite loss from the modelling perspective.


It depends on what kit you're talking about.

Some kits are monopose. As has always been the case - remember how the majority of the unit options in every codex used to be metal? You know how metal is super monopose?

And some kits are dual-pose, or monopose with the same five poses in every box. Usually elites, the kind that used to come in those two-fer or three-fer clampacks. You know, the metal ones with 2-3 poses.

And some kits, generally the troop kits, are multipose, with swappable arms, heads, etc.

I play drukhari and I play genestealer cults. Drukhari are lauded as the most kitbashable/posable army ever produced and GSC are pretty much brand new. My troop kits from the Drukhari have exactly 1 thing over the GSC kits for poseability and that's the ability to slightly tilt or pivot the waist. That's it.


I dont know about that...
I collect mostly every army and Dark Eldar are the only ones that I had to sell off. Thats because I found them super boring to build. Meanwhile, my main army is Cadian followed by Dark Angels (then Custodes) but my favourite factions to build are CSM and Orks. Putting together Nobz or the old Chaos Marines was really an awesome thing. I cant say weather the updated Chaos kits are the same as I dont have any, but the old CSM kit was perfect. It had bits to customize the champion and icon bearer to represent any of the 4 gods or undivided.

So yeah, I think Orks are actually known as the most kit-bashable army, with CSM probably in second

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 01:05:33


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...but you know if I actually compared old csm or ork boyz to a newer kit people would cry foul, because im comparing a 3rd ed kit to a cad designed kit.

5th ed seems to be what people most often recall as the golden age, which makes sense given the average person on here is like 30-40 and that hits the nostalgia window.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
My disagreement with people in this thread has been that I don't agree that kits have gotten significantly less customizable since the "good old days" of fifth ed era kits.
You are objectively wrong.

Ever put the new Havoc kit together?


No, but I have the assembly instructions here. Somewhat of a disappointment since the new Devastator kit was nice and included 2 of every heavy weapon, but that's the exception rather than the norm for one of these "tons of weapon options" special infantry kits. They almost always have 1 of every weapon in them.

And the marine heavy weapons have always had paired arms+dedicated backpack, since they've got the wires and whatnot leading to the backpack. The champ being restricted to bringing a flamer or whatever is fething asinine, but that's a no model no rules issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 03:59:15


 
   
Made in fi
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There are few things in this hobby that are as galling as having a major conversion or entire variant army invalidated. The first conversion I ever did was making my own biker Chaplain for my Eternity Wardens, and that model still exists in my collection in its original paint scheme circa 1998. When rules for it were removed from the game entirely, a part of me died, as a gamer at least.

The encouraging of an "all matched play with tournament restrictions, all the time" playstyle has also meant there's less space than ever for house rules or even using GW's own ironically-named "Legends" addendums.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/05 06:37:16


"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
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123ply wrote:
Cronch wrote:
It does also simplify playtesting (don't have to check if X+Y combo doesn't accidentally blow the game up) and theoretically help get newbies into the game by providing out of box experience. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's the logic apparently.


And its dumb because the idea if being able to buy another kit and equip a model with those weapons was something I found awesome as a kid, when I first got into 40k. Its still something awesome now but you never see it anymore. Kitbashing is becoming something that is purely aesthetic, and even then, the primaris range look like theyre not ment to be kitbashed at all.


They kitbash just fine.



Primaris Apothecary kitbashed from Reiver grapple gun, Gravis Captain ammo feed and Skitarri bits.



Primaris Chaplain kitbashed from Reiver helmet, Gravis Captain Iron Halo and Betrayal at Calth Crosius and bolter.

   
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New England

 Daedalus81 wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
Greater customization would likely make people buy MORE kits


To answer your question you must prove this statement. Then you'll find your answer. Otherwise this is just an assertion based on feelings.


https://www.facebook.com/ian.williams.9022/posts/2936630219681586

When you get done looking at that post, you can look at the rest of my gallery...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 00:41:07


<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
Greater customization would likely make people buy MORE kits
To answer your question you must prove this statement.
Ok.

   
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I think the reason GW is focusing on monopose figures and no conversion is because, despite recent reforms, GW is STILL focused on selling to pre-teens who will dump a c-note or two, piddle around with it for a couple weeks, and then move on. Maximum profit with minimum ongoing support.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
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Bodt

I believe that this has less to do with dissuading conversions and kitbashes, and more to do with providing better details, better posing, and all round more realistic looking and better scaled models. kitbashing helps the hobby, and if GW thought otherwise and sought to stamp it out, they would be fools of the highest order. If you doubt this, visit any bits selling website and witness how many parts are sold out. I buy tons from bits sellers and its a nightmare to get hold of the items you want.

as a modeller I prefer the newer models.. their details are better, the larger scale is better. Sure, it takes a little more skill to cut them up and shape them into conversions, but so what? get better at kitbashing. the extra details also make them harder to paint, but I dont see anyone complaining about that.

I'd rather have a realistic hand holding something at an angle with fingers placed individually, than a bunch of generic arms with U shaped bolter holding hands that are no use to man nor beast in conversions, to provide an example.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/06 16:16:36


Heresy World Eaters/Night Lords Genestealer cults.

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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I believe that this has less to do with dissuading conversions and kitbashes, and more to do with providing better details, better posing, and all round more realistic looking and better scaled models. kitbashing helps the hobby, and if GW thought otherwise and sought to stamp it out, they would be fools of the highest order. If you doubt this, visit any bits selling website and witness how many parts are sold out. I buy tons from bits sellers and its a nightmare to get hold of the items you want.

as a modeller I prefer the newer models.. their details are better, the larger scale is better. Sure, it takes a little more skill to cut them up and shape them into conversions, but so what? get better at kitbashing. the extra details also make them harder to paint, but I dont see anyone complaining about that.

I'd rather have a realistic hand holding something at an angle with fingers placed individually, than a bunch of generic arms with U shaped bolter holding hands that are no use to man nor beast in conversions, to provide an example.


You don't like all your miniatures posed taking a standing dump?

And come on, those ball joint U-hands were INFINITELY USEFUL! You could have the model holding a grenade by his fingertips! A model holding a knife or pistol reverse cripps killshot gangster style! A model holding a gun as intended! The possibilities were LITERALLY those three things! I mean endless!
   
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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
kitbashing helps the hobby, and if GW thought otherwise and sought to stamp it out, they would be fools of the highest order. If you doubt this, visit any bits selling website and witness how many parts are sold out. I buy tons from bits sellers and its a nightmare to get hold of the items you want.


Ever wonder WHY those parts are sold out, and have been for months? It's because GW has enacted a draconian policy aimed at stopping bitz dealers from selling bitz. They want you to come to THEM and buy the whole kit for that one bit.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!





Bodt

 Vulcan wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
kitbashing helps the hobby, and if GW thought otherwise and sought to stamp it out, they would be fools of the highest order. If you doubt this, visit any bits selling website and witness how many parts are sold out. I buy tons from bits sellers and its a nightmare to get hold of the items you want.


Ever wonder WHY those parts are sold out, and have been for months? It's because GW has enacted a draconian policy aimed at stopping bitz dealers from selling bitz. They want you to come to THEM and buy the whole kit for that one bit.



Can you elaborate? As far as I'm aware the only issue is the resellers selling out of the parts very quickly, and how fast they can restock..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:


You don't like all your miniatures posed taking a standing dump?

And come on, those ball joint U-hands were INFINITELY USEFUL! You could have the model holding a grenade by his fingertips! A model holding a knife or pistol reverse cripps killshot gangster style! A model holding a gun as intended! The possibilities were LITERALLY those three things! I mean endless!


Excatly! The old space marine set sucked for kitbashing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 18:10:56


Heresy World Eaters/Night Lords Genestealer cults.

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Devon, UK

IIRC about 5 years ago GW altered their sales contract to prohibit the sale of their kits by third parties if they were splitting them for bits.

Consequently any bits seller was left either buying kits at retail or seriously risking any of their business that involved selling GW product. So a lot of small players and side businesses just stopped doing it, and those that continued had a massive jump in overhead. Demand hasn't really gone anywhere but up, while the quantity of the choice bits (which are often only a small number per box Vs a huge number of irrelevant tat that'll barely ever sell anyway) has, if anything, reduced.

So we find ourselves where the desirable stuff is hardly ever available, because in order to stock it the seller has to buy a box and face adding another million bolters (or whatever) that won't shift, but won't be able to recoup the cost of the box on the few choice bits that'll sell out as soon as they're made available.

There's obviously some people making it work, but it isn't the same market as it used to be.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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 Azreal13 wrote:
IIRC about 5 years ago GW altered their sales contract to prohibit the sale of their kits by third parties if they were splitting them for bits.

Consequently any bits seller was left either buying kits at retail or seriously risking any of their business that involved selling GW product. So a lot of small players and side businesses just stopped doing it, and those that continued had a massive jump in overhead. Demand hasn't really gone anywhere but up, while the quantity of the choice bits (which are often only a small number per box Vs a huge number of irrelevant tat that'll barely ever sell anyway) has, if anything, reduced.

So we find ourselves where the desirable stuff is hardly ever available, because in order to stock it the seller has to buy a box and face adding another million bolters (or whatever) that won't shift, but won't be able to recoup the cost of the box on the few choice bits that'll sell out as soon as they're made available.

There's obviously some people making it work, but it isn't the same market as it used to be.


yeah, they want to sell to bitz sellers like MLMs selling to their "sellers". Basically, at retail, make whatever profit you can eke out.
   
Made in gb
Freelance Soldier




Nottingham, England

Simple.

Most gamers don't customise much, if at all. Those who do are a minority. The current kits largely remove the need to think about posing and are easier for the average gamer to assemble.

If every GW mini were like the space marine hero range , push fit and pushable off the sprue, they'd clean up. I can't help think the ultimate objective is to have a Gundam style setup where its all largely base colour plastic and snap/push fit whilst allowing hobbyists room to go a lot further if they want.

It's like the argument about why so many marine kits. They sell, and whether vocal parts of Internet forums like it or not, the product range shows that.

3rd parties were leaching off GW's work and that was always inevitably going to end badly.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Philadelphia PA

Short answer: because we live in age where people have become so shortsighted that it's not enough to succeed, but to have others fail

Long answer: because the Chapterhouse thing scared GW and now they feel a need to push their perspective that they're the Apple of gaming. They want the same legions of drooling fans who'll pay premium prices for a name when other products exist for less, they want that ironfisted control over who uses their products and how.

And it looks like they have some success:
3rd parties were leaching off GW's work and that was always inevitably going to end badly.


   
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Devon, UK



3rd parties were leaching off GW's work and that was always inevitably going to end badly.


No.

Any third party selling modification parts necessarily required a whole GW kit to be purchased alongside them to function at all.

Any third party selling "not" sculpts or kits in entirety isn't affected in the least by the construction of the original.

There's nothing going to end inevitably badly about the former, third party modification parts and models have been a feature of modelling since before GW's inception, in fact GW was founded in part on providing stuff for someone else's games. It should only end badly in the case of the latter if they're so blatantly ripping off the concept that it stands up in court.

The reason the whole situation went bad was thanks to GW trying to leverage their greater financial and legal clout in a hopelessly naive and aggressive manner, when what would have been better is leveraging their superior technical and creative ability to simply out compete the little guys. But they decided to act like the corporate equivalents of a petulant toddler and here we are.



Long answer: because the Chapterhouse thing scared GW and now they feel a need to push their perspective that they're the Apple of gaming. They want the same legions of drooling fans who'll pay premium prices for a name when other products exist for less, they want that ironfisted control over who uses their products and how.


In fairness, Kirby was already alluding to Apple in his preambles before CHS. That attitude wasn't a consequence of the CHS thing so much as vice versa.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/06 20:48:14


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Lake County, Illinois

-Guardsman- wrote:
I don't understand it at all. Greater customization would likely make people buy MORE kits, in order to get the bits that would help them make their miniatures truly unique. Instead, GW is hellbent on making nothing but single-pose models from now on.

Is it a matter of protecting their intellectual property, or something like that? Do they feel that customized models undermine their brand? Are they afraid of mediocre kitbashes giving a wrong impression to customers?


In what way to they discourage customization? They do the exact opposite. There are articles in every white dwarf and all over the community site about customization.

Why they are making more single pose models is a different question. Probably because they can make better looking models that way.
   
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Bodt

 Azreal13 wrote:
IIRC about 5 years ago GW altered their sales contract to prohibit the sale of their kits by third parties if they were splitting them for bits.

Consequently any bits seller was left either buying kits at retail or seriously risking any of their business that involved selling GW product. So a lot of small players and side businesses just stopped doing it, and those that continued had a massive jump in overhead. Demand hasn't really gone anywhere but up, while the quantity of the choice bits (which are often only a small number per box Vs a huge number of irrelevant tat that'll barely ever sell anyway) has, if anything, reduced.

So we find ourselves where the desirable stuff is hardly ever available, because in order to stock it the seller has to buy a box and face adding another million bolters (or whatever) that won't shift, but won't be able to recoup the cost of the box on the few choice bits that'll sell out as soon as they're made available.

There's obviously some people making it work, but it isn't the same market as it used to be.


True. But they must do OK because they always have tons of stuff sold. The one I use sends me emails every 2-3 weeks saying they've restocked this or that, or about getting the newest stuff in. Converters (like myself) are generally happy to pay good money for decent parts. I guess they have a way of dealing with the extra generic bits.. The site I use offers bulk random bags which I assume take most of the chaff.

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Did anybody mention the Talonmaster yet? It's a unit that exists not because it has a model, but because there is a Ravenwing Accessory Pack you can add onto a regular landspeeder! I think GW should make more unique units that are based off existing models and sell upgrade packs to create them. I am aware of some existing upgrade packs like for the land raider crusader, but that land raider also comes in a box set.

Let me make an example just for clarification. imagine that GW comes out with a data sheet for a new space wolf ancient on a thunderwolf. They could simple come out with a upgrade spur with the flag and some extra bits. I think this would be faster to get to customers then going through the whole process of making a new model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think more unique upgrade spurs would help both satisfy modeling enthusiasts and GW can sell more stuff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 22:57:22


   
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Jimbobbyish wrote:
Did anybody mention the Talonmaster yet? It's a unit that exists not because it has a model, but because there is a Ravenwing Accessory Pack you can add onto a regular landspeeder! I think GW should make more unique units that are based off existing models and sell upgrade packs to create them. I am aware of some existing upgrade packs like for the land raider crusader, but that land raider also comes in a box set.

Let me make an example just for clarification. imagine that GW comes out with a data sheet for a new space wolf ancient on a thunderwolf. They could simple come out with a upgrade spur with the flag and some extra bits. I think this would be faster to get to customers then going through the whole process of making a new model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think more unique upgrade spurs would help both satisfy modeling enthusiasts and GW can sell more stuff


While we are at that, i REALLY wish GW would move away from power swords only thing. im getting tired of power swords only

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jimbobbyish wrote:
Did anybody mention the Talonmaster yet? It's a unit that exists not because it has a model, but because there is a Ravenwing Accessory Pack you can add onto a regular landspeeder! I think GW should make more unique units that are based off existing models and sell upgrade packs to create them. I am aware of some existing upgrade packs like for the land raider crusader, but that land raider also comes in a box set.


The Talonmaster exists simply because the MOTRW once upon a time could take a Land Speeder equipped with twin assault cannons and heavy bolters. AFAIK that option no longer exists so the TM was made to fill the void as the “model” was technically still available.



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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

True. But they must do OK because they always have tons of stuff sold. The one I use sends me emails every 2-3 weeks saying they've restocked this or that, or about getting the newest stuff in. Converters (like myself) are generally happy to pay good money for decent parts. I guess they have a way of dealing with the extra generic bits.. The site I use offers bulk random bags which I assume take most of the chaff.


If you don't mind, who do you use? My old suppliers have dried up due to the GW policies. They only deal in 3rd party bitz now, and some of the stuff I want they won't carry anymore.

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Canada

It is pretty clear with GW they would like you to come to them for all things of "the hobby", they have always been a great supporter or ANYTHING that fills a niche UNTIL they begin selling it.

I think of one good reason to discourage customization: What you make is a marketing tool for GW, it needs to match what they sell out of the box.
I could see how a conversation would go: "Cool model! where can I buy it?", " You can't, I made it!" or "I bought it as an add-on from XYZ company."

It makes perfect sense of "Why support something someone else is making when GW is selling it?!?"

They have, brushes, paint, clippers, a scraper, holders, painting stations, model carry cases, dice, tape measures... it is rather impressive when you look at it.

They were a great source for terrain building ideas, until they started selling prefab terrain.


I am waiting for the new videos on how to airbrush to dry-up and be redone when they go to sell their own airbrush.
I was told this was a primer only brush so it does not count as much:


Wayyyyy back I remember the deodorant container how-to make a tank, because they did not have much way back then:


It is a long held pattern with them so it makes a kind of sense.


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
 
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