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 Jidmah wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Some rules state "this model ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons," while some rules state "this model does not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons." Are you really saying this means that embarked units in the former would suffer the -1 to hit, but embarked units in the latter would not?

That would be correct.




See, I just don't accept this is a real distinction. This strikes me as a tortured attempt to reach the result you want to reach. I cannot believe that GW intended to make a distinction between models that "suffer" a penalty but "ignore" it, and models that don't suffer the penalty in the first place, and I do not accept that linguistically there is a real distinction. Ignoring a penalty and not suffering the penalty mean the same thing. GW writes rules sloppily. They don't parse things on that level of detail. Unless GW actually issues a FAQ explaining these terms mean different things mechanically I do not think it is reasonable to read them as distinct. I see this as akin to the people who argued that plural versions of a keyword didn't affect singular versions and vice versa prior to the FAQ on that topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/14 16:50:14


 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 doctortom wrote:

The FAQ you are relying on was dealing with stratagems that weren't providing modifiers. You are correct that those don't get passed on, as the open topped rules only discuss passing on modifiers affecting the transport, not non-modifiers. The open topped rule is quite clear that modifiers the transport has get passed onto the passengers, however.


Please show me where the FAQ i quoted says something about modifiers. I dont see it. Stratagems, no matter what they do, played on an open topped transport, do not affect the embarked unit. Thats what the FAQ is saying.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

The FAQ you are relying on was dealing with stratagems that weren't providing modifiers. You are correct that those don't get passed on, as the open topped rules only discuss passing on modifiers affecting the transport, not non-modifiers. The open topped rule is quite clear that modifiers the transport has get passed onto the passengers, however.


Please show me where the FAQ i quoted says something about modifiers. I dont see it. Stratagems, no matter what they do, played on an open topped transport, do not affect the embarked unit. Thats what the FAQ is saying.


And I said it doesn't affect the unit, or else there would be a +2 modifier, +1 from the modifier on the transport tranferring to the passengers, and +1 from the stratagem or whatever affecting the unit. As it stand all you have is a transport with a +1 modifier. The open topped rule states that modifiers transfer, so the modifier transfers. It's the transport affecting the passengers.
   
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Is that's the intent, why doesn't the FAQ say that, instead of definitively saying "no," when according to that read, the answer is really "in a very technical sense, no, but you may get it anyway, if it's a modifier?"

Just seems weird to think they'd deliberately answer the FAQ in so misleading a way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/14 18:21:16


 
   
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They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Well sure, it's possible. But I don't think "oh they probably didn't realize their answer was incomplete and misleading because they weren't thinking about it carefully enough" is an iron-clad argument. The whole point of a FAQ is to clear things up. I don't think they go around answering FAQs without taking a minute or two to think through the answer they're giving.

As I said, I don't think it's clear they *don't* transfer. Just that it isn't clear that they *do*. To square all those FAQs with the literal reading of the rule being advanced here requires the sort of sophistry as saying "ignore a penalty" is meant to be different than "doesn't suffer a penalty," which I just don't think is an argument to be taken seriously.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Well sure, it's possible. But I don't think "oh they probably didn't realize their answer was incomplete and misleading because they weren't thinking about it carefully enough" is an iron-clad argument. The whole point of a FAQ is to clear things up. I don't think they go around answering FAQs without taking a minute or two to think through the answer they're giving.


Given they've had to issue updates to FAQ updates for things that ended up confusing or wrong, I would say there's been evidence of times that they don't think it through, in fact it seems to be more rare for them to actually think of all the ramifications.
   
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Germany

 doctortom wrote:
They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.


Its irrelevant what they were thinking, we dont know that. We have to use what the FAQ says. The way the FAQ is written no stratagem, no matter what it does, played on the transport affects the embarked unit. Not even via open topped.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.

Its irrelevant what they were thinking, we dont know that. We have to use what the FAQ says. The way the FAQ is written no stratagem, no matter what it does, played on the transport affects the embarked unit. Not even via open topped.
The stratagem will not affect the embarked unit, but the modifiers that apply to the transport because of a stratagem, will apply because of the Open-topped rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/15 04:54:18


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.

Its irrelevant what they were thinking, we dont know that. We have to use what the FAQ says. The way the FAQ is written no stratagem, no matter what it does, played on the transport affects the embarked unit. Not even via open topped.
The stratagem will not affect the embarked unit, but the modifiers that apply to the transport because of a stratagem, will apply because of the Open-topped rule.


The example provided is a stratagem played on an open topped transport (battlewagon), and the answer is no.
   
Made in gb
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Boston, UK

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.

Its irrelevant what they were thinking, we dont know that. We have to use what the FAQ says. The way the FAQ is written no stratagem, no matter what it does, played on the transport affects the embarked unit. Not even via open topped.
The stratagem will not affect the embarked unit, but the modifiers that apply to the transport because of a stratagem, will apply because of the Open-topped rule.


The example provided is a stratagem played on an open topped transport (battlewagon), and the answer is no.


I tell you what, if you want to play this rule incorrectly with your Orks, then you do you. Your argument is repeatedly and stubbornly ignoring the open topped rule, and because of that you are playing it wrong.

The sequence goes;
Select target, check for modifiers, if any apply exert open topped rule on embarked units.
Play strategem on open topped vehicle, apply affect.
Does the strategem confer a modifier to the open topped vehicle?
If Yes, apply open topped rule to confer modifiers to embarked unit.
Simple.

As many have stated before, if someone played a strategem on a target unit or even the open topped vehicle that conferred a negative modifier to hit to your open topped vehicle, the open topped rule triggers and that modifier is transferred to your embarked unit, despite it being triggered by a strategem.

The reason you are playing this wrong at all times is because you are ignoring the open topped rule. Please read that and understand it properly as you are being confused by other rules and FAQS that have no bearing on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/15 09:43:09


"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
They may not have been thinking of modifiers when they wrote the FAQ. Stratagems that aren't giving modifiers wouldn't transfer to those inside, as they aren't on the board.

Its irrelevant what they were thinking, we dont know that. We have to use what the FAQ says. The way the FAQ is written no stratagem, no matter what it does, played on the transport affects the embarked unit. Not even via open topped.
The stratagem will not affect the embarked unit, but the modifiers that apply to the transport because of a stratagem, will apply because of the Open-topped rule.


The example provided is a stratagem played on an open topped transport (battlewagon), and the answer is no.


The FAQ was answering if the Strat affected the unit inside the transport, which of course is a no...

The FAQ was not at all about the bonus conferred by the open topped rule.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
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Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

The FAQ was answering if the Strat affected the unit inside the transport, which of course is a no...

The FAQ was not at all about the bonus conferred by the open topped rule.


The FAQ gives an example with an open topped transport, and the answer is no. Stratagems played on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 r_squared wrote:

I tell you what, if you want to play this rule incorrectly with your Orks, then you do you. Your argument is repeatedly and stubbornly ignoring the open topped rule, and because of that you are playing it wrong.


You are ignoring the example in the FAQ, which is an open topped transport. Stratagems played on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit. Special snowflake FAQ which goes against RAW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/15 11:03:44


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The FAQ was answering if the Strat affected the unit inside the transport, which of course is a no...

The FAQ was not at all about the bonus conferred by the open topped rule.


The FAQ gives an example with an open topped transport, and the answer is no. Stratagems played on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit.
And the strat is not affecting the embarked unit, it is affecting the transport. If the strat gives the transport a +1 to hit, then the transport gets a +1 to hit from the strat, and the embarked unit does not.

However, the transport's rules are affecting the embarked unit though, even though the strat is not. And the transport's open-topped rule confers the +1 bonus that the transport has to the embarked unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/15 11:15:48


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The FAQ was answering if the Strat affected the unit inside the transport, which of course is a no...

The FAQ was not at all about the bonus conferred by the open topped rule.


The FAQ gives an example with an open topped transport, and the answer is no. Stratagems played on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit.


Answer this, p5freak :
Assuming a unit of 15 lootas is firing from a battlewagon:
- Do they get -1 to hit when shooting a unit of guardians that has been the target of lightning fast reflexes?
- Do they wound a unit of intercessors that has been the target of transhuman physiology on 3+ or 4+?
- Can their shots be intercepted by an enemy grot shield?
- Can they shoot a unit of plague marines that has been the target of cloud of flies despite it not being the closest unit?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Germany

Assuming a unit of 15 lootas is firing from a battlewagon:
- Do they get -1 to hit when shooting a unit of guardians that has been the target of lightning fast reflexes?

RAW, no. Units embarked on a transport cannot be affected by anything. HIWPI, they get -1. The stratagem isnt played on the battlewagon, open topped has no effect.

- Do they wound a unit of intercessors that has been the target of transhuman physiology on 3+ or 4+?

RAW, no. Units embarked on a transport cannot be affected by anything. HIWPI, on 4+. The stratagem isnt played on the battlewagon, open topped has no effect.

- Can their shots be intercepted by an enemy grot shield?

RAW, yes. Grot shields doesnt affect the embarked unit, it affects the grot unit. The stratagem isnt played on the battlewagon, open topped has no effect.

- Can they shoot a unit of plague marines that has been the target of cloud of flies despite it not being the closest unit?


RAW, yes. Units embarked on a transport cannot be affected by anything. HIWPI, no, they cant shoot them. The stratagem isnt played on the battlewagon, open topped has no effect.
   
Made in de
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Ok, since you are obviously arguing for reading the rules in a way that would result in an unplayable game, we're done here.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
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 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The FAQ was answering if the Strat affected the unit inside the transport, which of course is a no...

The FAQ was not at all about the bonus conferred by the open topped rule.


The FAQ gives an example with an open topped transport, and the answer is no. Stratagems played on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit..


This has been explained to you by many people multiple times. The stratagem isn't affecting the embarked unit. If it were affecting the embarked unit, the unit would be getting a +2 to hit, +1 from being affected by the strategem and another +1 from the open topped rule having the transport pass on its +1 modifier. So, it's not affecting the embarked unit, but it is affecting the transport, giving it a +1 modifier. The open topped rule states (and is not specifically countered by the FAQ you are quoting) that modifiers to hit affecting the transport are passed on to the embarked passengers. Therefore the passengers get the +1, but it's coming from the transport and the open topped rule. If it were a stratagem not having a modifier but something else, the transport would not give the embarked passengers the stratagem as it is not a modifier. Any modifiers the transport gets are passed along, however.
   
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Germany

I have said how i see it, others have said how they see it. We have to agree to disagree.
   
Made in gb
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One has textual support and is strictly correct. Yours replies on an absurd extension of "affects" that has zero ingame support.
   
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Douglasville, GA

As stated, if "affects" is meant to encompass all possible ways an Aura or Stratagem could affect an Embarked unit, then we run into a lot of, frankly dumb, situations. Like using a Shoot Twice Stratagem on a unit to destroy a Transport and being able to argue that the use of that Stratagem affects the Embarked unit because if the Transport is destroyed it will force them to Disembark. We have to assume that GW meant that Auras and Stratagems couldn't directly target or affect an Embarked unit. As such, the unit being directly affected by Modifier granting Auras and Stratagems is the Transport, with Open-Topped transfering these Modifiers in a secondary fashion.
   
 
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