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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK



My Cold One Rough Riders disagree! I do love tanks though.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

What about leviathans (Moya); Tyranids, Zerg and other bio-engineered races?

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Trickstick wrote:


My Cold One Rough Riders disagree! I do love tanks though.


Although to be fair, Cold One Rough Riders are a bit of a mix of technology and nature. The sergeant's mount even has bionics.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Trickstick wrote:
As a Guard player, I don't understand how alternate activation would be balanced. A small, elite army would have a massive advantage over a cheap horde one, no? I had the same fears before the introduction of kill points, and I was right about that screwing over Guard. I don't know exactly what such an activation system would mean though, just feels like elite>horde in that system.


I imagine an elite army would have the advantage when it came to alpha-striking, but wouldn't a horde army then have a bunch of activations where the enemy can't make any counter-moves as they've already activated all their stuff?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Da Boss wrote:
Infinite summoning is wrong, okay. Call it summons you don't pay appropriate points for which are not available to all factions equally, how about that?

As for double turn, nope. It is a stupid mechanic and I have no interest in playing a game that is THAT luck based. It should be alternating activation by now anyway, everyone knows it is better than IGOUGO.


I play 2 summoning and 2 zero summoning armies, it is 100% for sure points added for summoning armies. Yes i even play in GT's, even large ones with 200+ players and many local events. I have WON more with my Non-summoning armies than my summoning ones.

Summoning is a mechanic just like Re-rolls, added wounds, added saves, added hits, etc.. Summoning armies do pay for it. My non-summoning CoS army is at a 80% winrate right now and i'm taking it to adepticon going for top 25th placings. No one at my local will play it, even the summoning armies b.c its stupidly strong even tho it doesn't summon. My army is getting +1 to hit and wound, sometimes +2 to hit, +1 to saves, deals lots of MW's, has +4" movement, can DS any turn but turn 5, shoot massive amounts of shots, and takes up large amounts of realestate. I also have won 1st for events with IDK (Deepkin, the fish/eel army), no summoning army can 100% no matter what turn 1 charge with 3 units having +9"movement, +6" charge, re-roll charges on 14+D6" flying base units that can instead just Outflank with +6" charges, then on turn turn 2 full army fight first, so if i get or lose the double turn i literally don't care.

The best summoning army (the one that can summon the most points, most effectively) isn't even top tier at all, and Slaanses was only good b.c it wasn't balanced, it is now and now its a balanced army. Most summoning armies has a mechanic in order to do it that you can stop, and good players will a lot of times make their summoning pointless, some summoning is easier to use for sure but also are much more limited. BoC summoning for example can summon on all board edges (outflanking) but can only summon normally a max of 200pts a game (300pts if you don't care that you summon crap that'll do nothing) where others can summon superior units for more points, they are limited by needing a hero and outside of 9" while still wholly within 12" of that hero, easy to stop a lot of the times.

So TL; DR summoning is for sure at a price, you just can't see the price easily as a non AOS player, but when looking at the armies full list of buffs and compare the two its more clear. New AoS players are not experience enough to know this as well. If a CoS player beats them the list is OP, but if a summoning army beats them then summoning is OP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/06 22:54:48


   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Overread wrote:
What about leviathans (Moya); Tyranids, Zerg and other bio-engineered races?


Bio-engineering is cool too. Tyranids are pretty neat. Again, sci-fi is just cooler than fantasy.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I play 2 summoning and 2 zero summoning armies, it is 100% for sure points added for summoning armies. Yes i even play in GT's, even large ones with 200+ players and many local events. I have WON more with my Non-summoning armies than my summoning ones.

Summoning is a mechanic just like Re-rolls, added wounds, added saves, added hits, etc.. Summoning armies do pay for it. My non-summoning CoS army is at a 80% winrate right now and i'm taking it to adepticon going for top 25th placings. No one at my local will play it, even the summoning armies b.c its stupidly strong even tho it doesn't summon. My army is getting +1 to hit and wound, sometimes +2 to hit, +1 to saves, deals lots of MW's, has +4" movement, can DS any turn but turn 5, shoot massive amounts of shots, and takes up large amounts of realestate. I also have won 1st for events with IDK (Deepkin, the fish/eel army), no summoning army can 100% no matter what turn 1 charge with 3 units having +9"movement, +6" charge, re-roll charges on 14+D6" flying base units that can instead just Outflank with +6" charges, then on turn turn 2 full army fight first, so if i get or lose the double turn i literally don't care.

The best summoning army (the one that can summon the most points, most effectively) isn't even top tier at all, and Slaanses was only good b.c it wasn't balanced, it is now and now its a balanced army. Most summoning armies has a mechanic in order to do it that you can stop, and good players will a lot of times make their summoning pointless, some summoning is easier to use for sure but also are much more limited. BoC summoning for example can summon on all board edges (outflanking) but can only summon normally a max of 200pts a game (300pts if you don't care that you summon crap that'll do nothing) where others can summon superior units for more points, they are limited by needing a hero and outside of 9" while still wholly within 12" of that hero, easy to stop a lot of the times.

So TL; DR summoning is for sure at a price, you just can't see the price easily as a non AOS player, but when looking at the armies full list of buffs and compare the two its more clear. New AoS players are not experience enough to know this as well. If a CoS player beats them the list is OP, but if a summoning army beats them then summoning is OP.


Out of interest, what does your non-summoning army look like?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how do summoning armies pay for their summoning? Are their models just more expensive for what they do or do they get summoning in place of army-buffing abilities, or is it something else?

I'm just curious as it sounds like a massive pain to try and balance

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 vipoid wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

I play 2 summoning and 2 zero summoning armies, it is 100% for sure points added for summoning armies. Yes i even play in GT's, even large ones with 200+ players and many local events. I have WON more with my Non-summoning armies than my summoning ones.

Summoning is a mechanic just like Re-rolls, added wounds, added saves, added hits, etc.. Summoning armies do pay for it. My non-summoning CoS army is at a 80% winrate right now and i'm taking it to adepticon going for top 25th placings. No one at my local will play it, even the summoning armies b.c its stupidly strong even tho it doesn't summon. My army is getting +1 to hit and wound, sometimes +2 to hit, +1 to saves, deals lots of MW's, has +4" movement, can DS any turn but turn 5, shoot massive amounts of shots, and takes up large amounts of realestate. I also have won 1st for events with IDK (Deepkin, the fish/eel army), no summoning army can 100% no matter what turn 1 charge with 3 units having +9"movement, +6" charge, re-roll charges on 14+D6" flying base units that can instead just Outflank with +6" charges, then on turn turn 2 full army fight first, so if i get or lose the double turn i literally don't care.

The best summoning army (the one that can summon the most points, most effectively) isn't even top tier at all, and Slaanses was only good b.c it wasn't balanced, it is now and now its a balanced army. Most summoning armies has a mechanic in order to do it that you can stop, and good players will a lot of times make their summoning pointless, some summoning is easier to use for sure but also are much more limited. BoC summoning for example can summon on all board edges (outflanking) but can only summon normally a max of 200pts a game (300pts if you don't care that you summon crap that'll do nothing) where others can summon superior units for more points, they are limited by needing a hero and outside of 9" while still wholly within 12" of that hero, easy to stop a lot of the times.

So TL; DR summoning is for sure at a price, you just can't see the price easily as a non AOS player, but when looking at the armies full list of buffs and compare the two its more clear. New AoS players are not experience enough to know this as well. If a CoS player beats them the list is OP, but if a summoning army beats them then summoning is OP.


Out of interest, what does your non-summoning army look like?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how do summoning armies pay for their summoning? Are their models just more expensive for what they do or do they get summoning in place of army-buffing abilities, or is it something else?

I'm just curious as it sounds like a massive pain to try and balance


For my Deepkin its mostly like a Shining Spears army (imagine the shuriken is just more melee attacks and its a perfect example) but they are your troops. My army had 3x6 of those units then 1x6 of a tanky version, the rest are buff characters. Very straight forward, but i do something that a lot of Deepkin players hate, i take the 3 character formation (Royal Council battalion) it gives me the option to turn 1-2 charge without outflanking, or use it to move units huge mounts (talking 30'+) its basically giving mini quicken to 3 units, it has won my many games b.c it gives me options. Most players would rather have more Eels, but i prefer utility. The army plays completely differently if you are a Tidecaster or King general, the king gives more damage and if the Royal Council more movement, but the Tidecaster stops turn 2 double turns and can turn 1 charge as an option still with run and charge (they have a chart like Tactical Doc, but the Tidecaster changes the order of the chart like UM does).

This army also get a massive amount of Rer-oll'1 of 1's to hit and wound, all my units has 3 attacking profiles (2-3 + D3 +1) all with the ability to get more, and the 3x6 units can also deal once a game a large MW bomb before they fight, the army can fight first (Ynnari rule) for a full turn, or run and charge/shoot. The full army is multi-wound super elites with massive bonuses, 3+/3+/-2/2D rr's1 to hit/wound and in Sigmar that damage spills over.



For my Cities list its, its 5 units of chariots (equal to about 15 venoms), 4 DSing units (equal to mandrakes) 2Hurricanums (+1 to hit aura heroes that shoots 3 Smites and still can cast a spell), 2 Fleetmasters (basically a Succubus), and 1 freeguild guard unit with a body guard rule for my general/warlord.
Imagine a DE army with 2 Succubui, 15 venoms, 50 mandrakes, and 2 shadowseers on a starweaver with 3D3 MW guns but they act as 1 model and some Court body guards, thats my non-summoning list, all for 2k. But the chariots 2 guns are 1 that is like a Diss cannon and 1 like splinter cannon. So a better venom lol, they just don't have fly. The big gun can also deal MW's on a hit of a 6. The Mandrake like units are while in cover, +1 to hit and wound roles, are super cheap for what they do, turn 1 DSing into cover they are 3+ save, 2+/3+ hit/wound, -1 rend, and still has multi attacks in melee.

The key to the army is placement and movement, zoning out 1/2 the table, i can also spend 1 CP to run and shoot movement on my chariots, combine with the 2 Hurricanums for additive to hit, a WL trait to give +1 to wound to just out move and out shoot, combine with lots of DSing units for bubble wrap or taking objectives. I will always go second if given the choice. As if i get a double turn i'll win 99% the time. The cities army just does so much MW's, is almost always 2+ to hit with some units being 2+ to wound, starting turn 1 with +1 save also helps a lot as rand AP/Rend is extremely rare and if they do have its normally only -1.


TL; DR; Non summoning armies gets strong core army rules, like Tactical Doctrine with new SfD rules, combine with better stats for their points.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/06 23:49:24


   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





 Overread wrote:
What about leviathans (Moya); Tyranids, Zerg and other bio-engineered races?


You're asking the right question in the wrong way. It should be: What about a tank made out of dragons?

I get it. I like sci-fi waaaay more than fantasy. More than a decade later and I am still burned out from fantasy due to D&D. Even if Warhammer Fantasy bent and contorted into the rules that is Age of Sigmar, I probably still would have bothered with it. Heck, the rules could have been better than what currently exist for Age of Sigmar, and I probably wouldn't have started playing it. Warhammer Fantasy always just felt like another generic Gagax/Tolikein fantasy world from the 90s that pretty much every would be dungeon master had. I am sure it isn't though my time with WHFB RPG and Vermintide hasn't really changed that opinion.

I started Age of Sigmar because it seem like it was really trying to cut loose from a lot, not all, but a lot of standard fantasy tropes/cliches. If you want those things, they are still there in Age of Sigmar. It is a big place after all. I liked that evil Chaos in fact does rule most of the mortal realms and most civilizations seem to have regressed to pre-iron to iron age tribalism feeling more Conan (movie/pop culture Conan anyways). The more exciting landscapes easily resemble heavy metal album covers than lush meadows or dense forests. Funny enough, my army is almost entirely composed of Warhammer Fantasy units despite my preferences. I even play my army much like they are a part of a rank and file game. It even kinda works.

I have found myself drifting away from vehicles or large single model units in favor of infantry in nearly all games I play anymore though. I certainly have a Chaos Land Raider for my Black Legion just like I have a Warshrine for my Slaves to Darkness. I with I appreciate the creativity of the Warshrine, I like the Land Raider more. Still, I like my robot dragon (Helldrake) most.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Out of interest, what does your non-summoning army look like?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, how do summoning armies pay for their summoning? Are their models just more expensive for what they do or do they get summoning in place of army-buffing abilities, or is it something else?

I'm just curious as it sounds like a massive pain to try and balance


For my Deepkin its mostly like a Shining Spears army (imagine the shuriken is just more melee attacks and its a perfect example) but they are your troops. My army had 3x6 of those units then 1x6 of a tanky version, the rest are buff characters. Very straight forward, but i do something that a lot of Deepkin players hate, i take the 3 character formation (Royal Council battalion) it gives me the option to turn 1-2 charge without outflanking, or use it to move units huge mounts (talking 30'+) its basically giving mini quicken to 3 units, it has won my many games b.c it gives me options. Most players would rather have more Eels, but i prefer utility. The army plays completely differently if you are a Tidecaster or King general, the king gives more damage and if the Royal Council more movement, but the Tidecaster stops turn 2 double turns and can turn 1 charge as an option still with run and charge (they have a chart like Tactical Doc, but the Tidecaster changes the order of the chart like UM does).

This army also get a massive amount of Rer-oll'1 of 1's to hit and wound, all my units has 3 attacking profiles (2-3 + D3 +1) all with the ability to get more, and the 3x6 units can also deal once a game a large MW bomb before they fight, the army can fight first (Ynnari rule) for a full turn, or run and charge/shoot. The full army is multi-wound super elites with massive bonuses, 3+/3+/-2/2D rr's1 to hit/wound and in Sigmar that damage spills over.


Interesting. I appreciate the 40k references.

I have to say, whilst they're not exactly my thing, Deepkin have some very nice models. Out of interest, what is it that lets their eels and such fly? (I'm talking lorewise, rather than game mechanics.)


 Amishprn86 wrote:

For my Cities list its, its 5 units of chariots (equal to about 15 venoms), 4 DSing units (equal to mandrakes) 2Hurricanums (+1 to hit aura heroes that shoots 3 Smites and still can cast a spell), 2 Fleetmasters (basically a Succubus), and 1 freeguild guard unit with a body guard rule for my general/warlord.
Imagine a DE army with 2 Succubui, 15 venoms, 50 mandrakes, and 2 shadowseers on a starweaver with 3D3 MW guns but they act as 1 model and some Court body guards, thats my non-summoning list, all for 2k. But the chariots 2 guns are 1 that is like a Diss cannon and 1 like splinter cannon. So a better venom lol, they just don't have fly. The big gun can also deal MW's on a hit of a 6. The Mandrake like units are while in cover, +1 to hit and wound roles, are super cheap for what they do, turn 1 DSing into cover they are 3+ save, 2+/3+ hit/wound, -1 rend, and still has multi attacks in melee.

The key to the army is placement and movement, zoning out 1/2 the table, i can also spend 1 CP to run and shoot movement on my chariots, combine with the 2 Hurricanums for additive to hit, a WL trait to give +1 to wound to just out move and out shoot, combine with lots of DSing units for bubble wrap or taking objectives. I will always go second if given the choice. As if i get a double turn i'll win 99% the time. The cities army just does so much MW's, is almost always 2+ to hit with some units being 2+ to wound, starting turn 1 with +1 save also helps a lot as rand AP/Rend is extremely rare and if they do have its normally only -1.


I'm noticing a theme of speed in both your lists - with the eels in the first one and the many chariots in this one. It's interesting that you can have stuff like those as Battleline units.

Anyway, thanks for giving me such an in-depth reply.


 Amishprn86 wrote:

TL; DR; Non summoning armies gets strong core army rules, like Tactical Doctrine with new SfD rules, combine with better stats for their points.


Ah, I see. I'll admit it's impressive then that they've manged to balance such vastly different mechanics between armies.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






The balance also comes from they have a set way to make rules/books, in their AOS shorts podcast, i think its the 2nd one they explain they have a system in place for making armies. Some are for sure more powerful than others, but there is point changes every 6 months like 40k to make sure. So its still not perfectly balance, but at least its balanced enough that you have a large amount of factions in top 5 at every event.


For Deepkin, they are moreso surfing than flying, but using magic to bring water onto the battlefield. Their Doctrines i was talking about are from the rising and falling of Tides.

Oh to add, you can have Behemoths as battleline too, that means Dragons, Tanks (steam powered), woolly mammoth's, etc..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/07 15:04:41


   
 
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