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 Crimson wrote:
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.

No Rhinos, Land Raiders, Tactical Squads, Jump Pack troopers with Chainswords, no Bikes and no Terminators? No deal.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As for tanks, Repulsors are huge point sinks. I don't think they generally work on their own as well as you might think. Maybe a marine supplement such as the Iron Hands have a way to get work out them, but my codex only army doesn't get as much out of them as I would like since I have very limited Anti-Tank. I know I certainly don't like tangling with Imperial Guard armored armies because if feels like I have a Tiger versus too many Sherman Fireflies to win. And once my repulsor(s) is down, I don't have much left let alone anti-tank.

Eh, I prefer using a Mause on them myself.

Again, I think a lot people on Dakka Dakka are over exaggerating the power of the Intercessor. Before the new Codex, the Bolt Rifle Intercessor was a middling Troop choice that received points drops. Even now, I am not entirely convince that Tacticals can't provide the same amount of threat but in a different more deliberate way. However, they aren't as overt with Raw stats to reveal it as easy as Intercessors through Mathhammer. So I think somewhere before Bolter Discipline was a beta rule and now is where fair power of Intercessors can be found. Most of these arguments concerning Intercessors have been on things they have had since their introduction but weren't that big of an issue two years ago, but suddenly are now.

Y'know we had a whole thread on tacticals vs intercessors. Went on for days.

Look, like I said, I think most people's problem with loyalist marines is that gw has been paying loads of attention on them while mostly ignoring others, especially some xenos factions. I'd just like them to stop playing with their new toys for long enough to give my bitter old veterans some attention. I got no problem with primaris, they die just like everything else.

Except rievers. They're a complete rippoff of terror squads. Feth those guys.

I don't know if it has been ignoring the other factions so much as they just over tuned marines with the latest codex while trying to renew their most popular faction with an entirely new line. I don't agree with SlayerFan123 often, but I agree that the Chapter Supplements rules boosts, particularly super doctrines, was a misstep.

I on the model side of things for Chaos Space Marines I have been relatively happy. I mean I still pine for new Khorne Berserkers, Possessed and/or Noise Marines, but I have been content enough with CSM, Havocs and Abbadon. At this point, I think their are other factions that could use more of a refreshing of their model line. Rules wise, I agree that Chaos Space Marines are in a dire place. I might lose worse and faster with my GSC, but I feel losses with my Black Legion are less about me being bad at the game and more about the army being hobbled.

I point to my limited experience with Age of Sigmar. I started playing Slaves to Darkness (also in Black Legion colors) about a month before the new Battletome. I suffered crushing defeats that I wasn't even sure it was possible to win without incredible luck. Now, I have been winning more games than losing and that is with a largely meh tier, or at least the units I take are meh, book. I don't even think CSM are at meh. Which is a shame, and I hope gets fixed sooner rather than later. Until then, I will still shout, "Death to False Emperor!" and do the best with what I have.

As far as I am concerned, you can have Reivers' terror tactics. So far, it has scared a handful of guardsmen into running away for me. But Reivers are awesome with their silly skull masks.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just what Chaos players want: To have to use another Codex to rep their armies again.

People who play non-chaos traitors are by definition not playing chaos space marines.

It ain't Marines that are out of scale. It's the Guardsmen. So sayeth Jes Goodwin.

That ship sailed a long time ago. There are now a crazy number of different normal human models that are as tall or taller than the minimarines. And Jes seems to have moved with the times too, considering that he was in charge of designing the primaris.

I won't be forgetting Marines exist. No thanks.

Not marines. Just minimarines. The primaris are the marines now. You probably are not spending a lot of time agonising over the fact that marines are no longer penal legionaries* and represented by tiny beakie models either. I for one am glad that marines finally look and play like proper super soldiers. The problem with chaos is that despite improved the new models in the rules they're still wimp marines.

(* Granted, that actually was a cool piece of fluff and I like it more than the current venerated semi-divine champions.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

No Rhinos, Land Raiders, Tactical Squads, Jump Pack troopers with Chainswords, no Bikes and no Terminators? No deal.

Tanks have improved replacements, Intercessors are tacticals and the bikes are coming. I agree that chainsword assault unit would be welcome. I gave my reivers chainswors though, so I kinda got that covered.

 Crimson wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, how do they bend the lore around that? Every traitor marine isn't a chaos worshiper remember?

The ones represented by Codex Chaos Space Marines certainly are! If you want to play non-chos traitor marines you can just use the vanilla marine codex.

All the legions don't worship chaos. Some use it as a weapon but without worshipping it. Unless the new codex threw away all the lore from previous editions.

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just what Chaos players want: To have to use another Codex to rep their armies again.

People who play non-chaos traitors are by definition not playing chaos space marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

No Rhinos, Land Raiders, Tactical Squads, Jump Pack troopers with Chainswords, no Bikes and no Terminators? No deal.

Tanks have improved replacements, Intercessors are tacticals and the bikes are coming. I agree that chainsword assault unit would be welcome. I gave my reivers chainswors though, so I kinda got that covered.

If you ain't playing Land Raiders and Tacticals, then by definition you ain't playing Land Raiders and Tacticals, etc.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Stop it. This is probably 2w cult troops all over again. Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

Hype train has no brakes! DOOT DOOOOOT!

They locked JZ and DZ. Why not capitalize on like literally every Ork player out there?

honestly, the biggest issue is, imo, as soon as you run out of CP you are just black legion with a slightly diffrent trait. No rewards for mono legion, no customtraits, allways minimum souping, questionale stratagem design reaching from why the hell waste ink printing it too stupid combo enablers to outrifht stupid design.

Also traits still sucking and beeing restricted to a point where all our vehicles, half off our troop choices, etc don't profit from any varation on it. Even though GW has shown to be capable at writing seperate vehicle effects with the IG codex which is how old at this point excactly?

Not Online!!! wrote:
honestly, the biggest issue is, imo, as soon as you run out of CP you are just black legion with a slightly diffrent trait. No rewards for mono legion, no customtraits, allways minimum souping, questionale stratagem design reaching from why the hell waste ink printing it too stupid combo enablers to outrifht stupid design.

Also traits still sucking and beeing restricted to a point where all our vehicles, half off our troop choices, etc don't profit from any varation on it. Even though GW has shown to be capable at writing seperate vehicle effects with the IG codex which is how old at this point excactly?

Spoiler:

not to mention the lack of customtraitssystem hurting warband players

Warbands shouldn't be in the main Chaos Marine codex anyway. The focus should be Legions first and foremost. Let the main Marine codex handle any Renegades. This lack of focus keeps hurting the codex writing process to begin with.

Yeah my issue with CSM is most of the models look like black legion and are visually compatible with running another legion that doesn’t have its own codex. I was looking at one of the models and to buy but it has the eye of Horus on it and no other option

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
honestly, the biggest issue is, imo, as soon as you run out of CP you are just black legion with a slightly diffrent trait. No rewards for mono legion, no customtraits, allways minimum souping, questionale stratagem design reaching from why the hell waste ink printing it too stupid combo enablers to outrifht stupid design.

Also traits still sucking and beeing restricted to a point where all our vehicles, half off our troop choices, etc don't profit from any varation on it. Even though GW has shown to be capable at writing seperate vehicle effects with the IG codex which is how old at this point excactly?

Spoiler:

not to mention the lack of customtraitssystem hurting warband players

Warbands shouldn't be in the main Chaos Marine codex anyway. The focus should be Legions first and foremost. Let the main Marine codex handle any Renegades. This lack of focus keeps hurting the codex writing process to begin with.

i frankly don't care either way, personally it is high time for faction consolidation.
yes that means bigger books with multiple factions in it.

But it would also finaly curb the fething rulesources bloat. I mean common, the situation right now is ridicoulus.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Yeah my issue with CSM is most of the models look like black legion and are visually compatible with running another legion that doesn’t have its own codex. I was looking at one of the models and to buy but it has the eye of Horus on it and no other option

As someone that owns enough of the new CSM, you can easily bypass it on all the models, due to it mostly beeing stuck on shoulderpads.
What you can't bypass though, is the lack of standard equipment in all the new CSM boxes.
You get 8 bolters no more no less. you get 8 chainswords / pistols. but you get 12 backpacks. ...

Not to mention the terminator kit: Yeah chainaxes and Combibolters are standard equipment. You only get ONE chainaxe, but would you be interested in some fences for them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Stop it. This is probably 2w cult troops all over again. Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

Hype train has no brakes! DOOT DOOOOOT!

They locked JZ and DZ. Why not capitalize on like literally every Ork player out there?

By throwing ghaz and ragnar in a box chokefull of nonsense? And at a insane pricepoint? Sounds right and is fully expected

Not Online!!! wrote:
honestly, the biggest issue is, imo, as soon as you run out of CP you are just black legion with a slightly diffrent trait. No rewards for mono legion, no customtraits, allways minimum souping, questionale stratagem design reaching from why the hell waste ink printing it too stupid combo enablers to outrifht stupid design.

Also traits still sucking and beeing restricted to a point where all our vehicles, half off our troop choices, etc don't profit from any varation on it. Even though GW has shown to be capable at writing seperate vehicle effects with the IG codex which is how old at this point excactly?

Spoiler:

not to mention the lack of customtraitssystem hurting warband players

That's exactly the problem. Gw acts like they don't know how to make the legions unique, we know better. This insistence on tying everything to cp for csm while loyalists get improved chapter tactics and other bonuses simply for existing means loyalists actually have options for how they organize their army, whereas heretics are stuck with double battalions if we want to both function as a legion and actually be able to compete past turn two.

Not Online!!! wrote:

By throwing ghaz and ragnar in a box chokefull of nonsense? And at a insane pricepoint? Sounds right and is fully expected

Yea it is definitely on brand for them to do. I'd bet the MANZ are probably the old kit, but if I can part it out on eBay I'm headed straight for dropping money on 20 to 30 of them.

Not Online!!! wrote:
i frankly don't care either way, personally it is high time for faction consolidation.
yes that means bigger books with multiple factions in it.

But it would also finaly curb the fething rulesources bloat. I mean common, the situation right now is ridicoulus.

I don't see why the books would need to be that much bigger. The current codex is 168 pages vs 80 for 3.5. And 3.5 had all the legions in it. Which one do you think gave us more options on how to run our armies?

3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.


Still, I wonder what a set of custom "build your own" Renegade Marine forces. I mean, I like being able to advance and charge, and I like being rewarded for taking basic troops. Red Corsairs has had me covered for a while now. I've not built a list that didn't have them as the core component.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

Strongly seconded.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

Be careful what you wish for. The same thing could be said of the marine supplements.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

Be careful what you wish for. The same thing could be said of the marine supplements.

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Customization is well and good, but there is such a thing as too much and letting false options take center stage, or just options that don't make a lick of sense. Take the current Marine system going on. Iron Hands successors really should not be Stealthy and being able to charge after falling back. It's terribly silly.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.

despite the use of the word infiltrators, BOLS has found a likely canidate for an example of the art and this actually looks like a gravis unit. my guess is this'll come in a box set and towards the end of the year we'll see the long expected "gravis wave"


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

Be careful what you wish for. The same thing could be said of the marine supplements.

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Customization is well and good, but there is such a thing as too much and letting false options take center stage, or just options that don't make a lick of sense. Take the current Marine system going on. Iron Hands successors really should not be Stealthy and being able to charge after falling back. It's terribly silly.

ok, rules aside, why? why shou;dn't iron hands sucessors be able to be stealthy? what if my ideal chapter (we're talking lore and background here not "what stuff can I choose to be the most broken) is one with a bit of a cyberpunk flair of small detachments of individuals cybered out of the gills running special operations and stealth missions, hitting and fading?

....... actually that sounds like a neat idea for a truely DISTINCT iron hands sucessor.

this is the problem of course with chapter tactics period, not all of them are equal, and for some people they choose the one that fits their lore, ohers just wanna power game and lore be damned

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3.5 may not have been balanced, but man did it give us Chaos players some variety.

It remains one of the best codexes GW has ever released in terms of tone and customization.

Be careful what you wish for. The same thing could be said of the marine supplements.

What did I wish for?

The 3.5 Chaos Codex is one book, paperback and was maybe 25$ new. Not 7 books with way more options than necessary/flavorful, etc. 3.5 book Also included Daemons.

Best Marine book was 4th Ed. Marine, which had chapter customization, included successor chapters, and no Primaris.

Maybe what I "wished for" was a codex style that covered all the necessary options and flavor in one book. More options, more flavor, fewer pages. Concision.

Yea, that's fair, and I am not opposed to it. It's just that the more there is the greater the risk to balance.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, that's fair, and I am not opposed to it. It's just that the more there is the greater the risk to balance.

Shiver me timbers! Options! There's going to be balance issues regardless, and there have been issues even when the game was super-streamlined with fewer options than ever (3rd Ed.) Stand-out issues can always be addressed. GW is doing it now with CA, GW could have done it with 3.5 if they were inclined to. It's not rocket science.

The bottom line is, would you rather a single book with all your stuff? Or four books? CSM, Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard. Not to mention PA.

I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

It may be difficult to throw daemons, and possibly dg and 1ksons in, but I see no reason we couldn't have good flavorful rules for the other legions contained in one book, instead of spreading it out like the current situation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

Yes you could.
Death guard and TS back.
Stratagems, curbing of the useless specific anti x stratagems.

Apply Limits to datasheet availability (no sorcerers for we f.e. Limited assault optional for dg specific aligned Units for them, not that dificult) and Modification as appropriate (f.e. DG lords gain t 5 and fnp , TS havocs become rubricaed.)

Add in the formations.


So successfully lowered required books for Chaos legions by 4.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

Just trim the fat.

How many unique units are added with Thousand Sons and Death Guard anyways? Between the three books there are still fewer Terminator options than the normal Space Marine book. Let's count up the sheets and see if all together they have significantly more units than the Space Marine book. I don't have those books myself, just the CSM one.

edit: inja'd. Thanks H.B.M.C

I wonder if we're ever going to get rules for the renegades mentioned in the CSM codex who weren't in Vigillus Ablaze, like the Invocators, Magma Hounds, and Cleaved.

Insectum7 wrote:
The 3.5 Chaos Codex is one book, paperback and was maybe 25$ new. Not 7 books with way more options than necessary/flavorful, etc. 3.5 book Also included Daemons.

Best Marine book was 4th Ed. Marine, which had chapter customization, included successor chapters, and no Primaris.

Maybe what I "wished for" was a codex style that covered all the necessary options and flavor in one book. More options, more flavor, fewer pages. Concision.

The 2002 dex didn’t cover all the options. It covered the models really well, like the daemon prince and the raptors, and some say the daemonettes. Except in the rules raptors didn’t really work. The “concision” of being really good in the army list construction phase of the game meant that just getting raptors to fit in an army, or the various types of chosen (all-champion cavalry, or Tzeentch anything) was never worked out. Cult armies couldn’t even take raptors, despite the fact that they were supposedly a separate, allied cult unit even in undivided armies. Mainly their rules just didn’t mean anything and that’s probably why they continue to have such weird treatment, eg the silly lightning claw unit and the hapless mook unit.

They had the tools, the codex could have made raptors daemonic beasts with flight, then they’d have been slightly weak and super fast, but what they were instead was high pointed plasma caddies that nobody needed and often weren’t allowed anyway.

And like, rubric units were a mess. I and most of the TS players I met ended up using them as close combat units, where their two wounds allowed them to slowly grind out a cc victory with their one warp time power fist. These are fluffy players after all, that’s the only kind of TS player there is really. Those were the glory days and even then the basic mechanics of the unit were just stupid.

Fourth edition space marines I think set boundaries on creativity for some people. Yeah I think the customization or role playing kind of element was mechanized. From a hobby perspective it only offered so much too. I can build some outrageous conversions and then all the traits did was give them furious charge. Like, the models didn’t really need that in order to become game legal. There was good stuff about it I guess

Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.

No Rhinos, Land Raiders, Tactical Squads, Jump Pack troopers with Chainswords, no Bikes and no Terminators? No deal.

Crimson is an A-tier hobbyist, I’m really just going to go with it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think you can smash it all in one book. There is just way, way too much that has been added since the 3.5 days. You're talking about a 300 to 400 page book as there is incredibly littler overlap.

For real? The Marine Codex has 76 entries (I'm specifically not including special characters/units from the Marine supplements). Combined, removing duplicates, Chaos/1KSons/Death Guard have 81 units.

Marines are one book. Chaos could easily be one book, even adding 5 new unique units (each) for Slaanesh and Khorne could still be one book.

But, but, but.... To include that several pages of craptastic fluff & recycled art might have to be cut!