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A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
A chaos player should understand his position in the game

The second best supported faction, with the second largest line.

I guess i'm a little jaded from reading so many of these threads that inevitably stray from "we need this" to "ok we have it but it needs to be more powerful/easier to take or we don't actually need it but they have it so we should too"

Table wrote:
But when I make a statement that we need drop pods...

But do you need it? Sure being able to put your models in prime position cheaply on turn one is a big advantage from the perspective of being able to win all your games, but it's not as if chaos is the odd one out here. Nobody else gets to do it either (except marines obviously, and possibly chaos after the FW update), and that includes even shorter ranged armies than chaos.

As for havoks, i'm surprised it took someone this long to suggest making them as cheap as sisters.

Well, I can understand you on the jaded aspect. I grow weary of imperial players not understanding what other factions deal with. And as I have said, but you do not seem to get, is that we are NOT talking about FW. I have stated the reasons as being that it is illegal to play in a few shops and groups. Sure, ITC has em. But this isnt a ITC balance thread.

As for need. Yes I do think CSM need drop pods. If not for the only reason that they get them in lore. The renegade warbands tend to use them more and the legions tend to use Khards and the like. But not every CSM army is a legion list. As for having them on a gameplay basis that is up to the individual. I think I could make good use of them.

So to summarize (and im sorry if this comes off as brisk or snarky, it is not my intention) the point of the thread is why CSM codex does not have drop pods when it is presented in the lore that they do. It derailed, thanks to me, to a bitch fest. But in no where is this about forge world.

Also, as to the second most supported faction. In forgeworld, yes. We get the loyalist run off. Am I grateful for it? Sure am. As for GW proper we are not the second most supported faction. Everyone is a turd when it comes to loyalist marines and support. Sure, some are less turds than others, but a turd is a turd.

As for Havocs. I think the point price is fine. I have never run my old havoc squad as anything other than a 10 man operation and I have never seen anyone else bring them as a 5 man squad. I am sure people do, but in my neck of the woods it does not happen.

CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

Except drop pods are in the fluff. There is little to no excuse for CSM players not to have the kit on that basis. Legions are only a part of the traitor marines. Red Corsairs alone are as large as every legion sans BL put together ( I may be over selling that ). They certainly do not have dread claws and Khards. Do they turn in their pods to the local imperial armory before going renegade?

In the new Black Legion books they briefly elude to why the legions don't use these things any more. It really just boils down to attrition and years of legion infighting in the Eye of Terror and having no real access to forgeworlds in the early years to resupply their stock of warmachines ect. Is it a good excuse no not really.

That being said there are somethings loyalists have that legions should still definitely have access too. I think the new forgeworld indexes will help as I expect a lot of point drops for things like the dreadclaws as well as them getting the first turn deepstrike rule.

Table wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

Except drop pods are in the fluff. There is little to no excuse for CSM players not to have the kit on that basis. Legions are only a part of the traitor marines. Red Corsairs alone are as large as every legion sans BL put together ( I may be over selling that ). They certainly do not have dread claws and Khards. Do they turn in their pods to the local imperial armory before going renegade?

Then maybe Traitor Marines and Renegades should be represented by the main Marine codex like it should've been from the beginning, and then the CSM book can focus on Legions proper.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

Except drop pods are in the fluff. There is little to no excuse for CSM players not to have the kit on that basis. Legions are only a part of the traitor marines. Red Corsairs alone are as large as every legion sans BL put together ( I may be over selling that ). They certainly do not have dread claws and Khards. Do they turn in their pods to the local imperial armory before going renegade?

Then maybe Traitor Marines and Renegades should be represented by the main Marine codex like it should've been from the beginning, and then the CSM book can focus on Legions proper.

No, simply to deny the fact that we need another book.

Table wrote:
I grow weary of imperial players not understanding what other factions deal with.

Why is it always 'imperial' players and not marine players?

Table wrote:
As for GW proper we are not the second most supported faction

Yes, you are. By a wiiiiiiiide margin in recent years even without forgeworld.

A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
I grow weary of imperial players not understanding what other factions deal with.

Why is it always 'imperial' players and not marine players?

Table wrote:
As for GW proper we are not the second most supported faction

Yes, you are. By a wiiiiiiiide margin in recent years even without forgeworld.

*Checks gw website* 67 entries for csm 64 entries for am. Yeah that's what I'd call a wiiiiiiide margin.

I'm being sarcastic btw.

Table wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

Except drop pods are in the fluff. There is little to no excuse for CSM players not to have the kit on that basis. Legions are only a part of the traitor marines. Red Corsairs alone are as large as every legion sans BL put together ( I may be over selling that ). They certainly do not have dread claws and Khards. Do they turn in their pods to the local imperial armory before going renegade?

Yea, I already know this. I even stated earlier in the thread that Crimson Slaughter, created in 6th edition were known for their Drop Pod Assaults, and even had a special mission in their Supplement to represent it (minus the actual pod).

But if the excuse is Fluff/Differentiating model lines (which seems stupid if they want to sell kits) then CSM should be able to teleport/summon.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Table wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
CSM should have a generic deepstrike strat (like Ksons) to represent teleporting via sorcery.

If fluff is the big excuse not to have pods, then we should have other means.

Except drop pods are in the fluff. There is little to no excuse for CSM players not to have the kit on that basis. Legions are only a part of the traitor marines. Red Corsairs alone are as large as every legion sans BL put together ( I may be over selling that ). They certainly do not have dread claws and Khards. Do they turn in their pods to the local imperial armory before going renegade?

Yea, I already know this. I even stated earlier in the thread that Crimson Slaughter, created in 6th edition were known for their Drop Pod Assaults, and even had a special mission in their Supplement to represent it (minus the actual pod).

But if the excuse is Fluff/Differentiating model lines (which seems stupid if they want to sell kits) then CSM should be able to teleport/summon.

Yes, but if fluff is the reason then you run into the problem of the legions who aren't into warp fethery. You know, like the one in your name?

 Trickstick wrote:
That reaper chaingun looks great. Too bad people don't use them.

Wait, what? Not really seen a CSM army used in a while, but weren't these hot gak when they came out with people complaining you only got 1 in the kit and loads of STL files popping up everywhere, and now just... CSM players giving a collective "meh". What happened?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
That reaper chaingun looks great. Too bad people don't use them.

Wait, what? Not really seen a CSM army used in a while, but weren't these hot gak when they came out with people complaining you only got 1 in the kit and loads of STL files popping up everywhere, and now just... CSM players giving a collective "meh". What happened?

Um, I think he's either being sarcastic or it's just something odd about his particular meta.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
That reaper chaingun looks great. Too bad people don't use them.

Wait, what? Not really seen a CSM army used in a while, but weren't these hot gak when they came out with people complaining you only got 1 in the kit and loads of STL files popping up everywhere, and now just... CSM players giving a collective "meh". What happened?

Um, I think he's either being sarcastic or it's just something odd about his particular meta.

Two issues with it.
Nr1 . Tied in it's most effective useage to havocs. Havocs require movement help. Eliminating a lot of subfactions from effective use.
Nr2 : it's enormously pricy and requires support.

These are at the core . Add to this the rather low availability due to gw artificially creating scarcetiy and basically having it's Main purpose beeing in General a non issue due to bolter discipline and you get a weapon that is in a way a dangerous one Trick Pony one Shot killer.
Except pricier and also substitutable with either combi plas termites or obliterators.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
That reaper chaingun looks great. Too bad people don't use them.

Wait, what? Not really seen a CSM army used in a while, but weren't these hot gak when they came out with people complaining you only got 1 in the kit and loads of STL files popping up everywhere, and now just... CSM players giving a collective "meh". What happened?

Um, I think he's either being sarcastic or it's just something odd about his particular meta.

Two issues with it.
Nr1 . Tied in it's most effective useage to havocs. Havocs require movement help. Eliminating a lot of subfactions from effective use.
Nr2 : it's enormously pricy and requires support.

These are at the core . Add to this the rather low availability due to gw artificially creating scarcetiy and basically having it's Main purpose beeing in General a non issue due to bolter discipline and you get a weapon that is in a way a dangerous one Trick Pony one Shot killer.
Except pricier and also substitutable with either combi plas termites or obliterators.

Yeah, not my style, but lots of csm players like those suicide havocs.

Did I not put the qualifier of this is how things are in my meta? I am sorry if I did not.