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mrFickle wrote:
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.

For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles. I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.


I wonder about that. Specifically Lion v Magnus. The assumption is always Magnus wins because 'best psyker like, evah' but the Lion stood against a Lord of Change with just a sword, spent his pre-Knight years in a forest hunting what is generally accepted chaos-infused beasts, heck in the latest Primarchs book he's co-ordinated an assault on a psychic heavy race/opponent and beats it down through force of will.
Not saying Magnus can't win, just it would be a curious encounter given the Lion's track record of hunting monsters and killing them.

 
   
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mrFickle wrote:
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.

For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.


The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.

For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.


The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.


*polite cough* Angels not Angles *polite cough*

And to be so irritating, you just want to hit them. Its like the Lion grew up alone in the wild fighting off wild chaos beasts or something.

Since the Lion only beat Russ when Russ let his guard completely down. In the first fight there was no clear winner until Russ let his guard down, thinking the fight over. In the second fight Russ basically tried to commit suicide by brother. Lets just call it a draw and stop the trolling.

Onto the new forgeworld model, which this thread is about, I like the model. I like the bearded head. The scene reminds me of a horror movie where the monster (Lion'el Jonson) kills the victims one by one, where they try and fail to put him down.
   
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BlaxicanX wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As said above, he's a 30k model not a 40k one, just like Angron, Horus, Perty, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, Corax, Kurze, Russ, Ferrus, Lorgar, or Vulkan.

Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
Because he is literally not only alive in 40K per canon but also basically awake?

The real question is why anyone would assume that he won't be appearing in 40K at some point. He will.
Yes, but why this model? He clearly shares more in common with the 30k aesthetic, and it's not like GW to use their 30k Primarch models for 40k. Why the jump to conclusions that an ostensibly 30k sculpt would be usable in other games?

I'm not doubting that the Lion *could* come back in 40k, but they won't be using that model for it, I can assure you.


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I have to admit I did not realise, when I started this thread, that there was a different model for RG in 30 & 40.

I could say why are GW releasing a new 30k lion model when many people are waiting for the other 40k primarchs to be released. It’s a bigger market.

But maybe GW aren’t actually doing that
   
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40k might be a bigger market, but Primarchs are far more of a 30k thing than a 40k one. Primarchs were around in 30k (in model form) way before they were in 40k.


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Tygre wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.

For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.


The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.


*polite cough* Angels not Angles *polite cough*


*looks at quote chain*

Are you sure you're not a Dark Angle, Tygre?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
Tygre wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.

For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.


The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.


*polite cough* Angels not Angles *polite cough*


*looks at quote chain*

Are you sure you're not a Dark Angle, Tygre?


That's some Hounds of Tindalos scariness

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mrFickle wrote:
I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.

Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement
   
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Yazima wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.

Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement

Angron isn't a duelist. Sanguinius nearly every other Primarch respected and expected to lose against 1-on-1. You're right that there's very little mention of him winning duels against the others (apart from Russ and Konrad).
Heck I'd not even call Horus a duelist. That's Fulgrim and Saunguinius' thing.

Now would I expect the Lion to win 1-on-1 against most of the other Primarchs? Sure. The ones he probably can't beat: Sanguinius, maybe Fulgrim (we wont ever know), Vulkan (assuming Vulkan plays the long game and the Lion doesn't account for that so probably a stalemate), Guilliman (only in rematches after Guilliman worked out why he lost last time, maybe).


 
   
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The Primarchs have quite distinct styles, and so I think one might have an advantage over another, but be weaker against a different one.

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 BroodSpawn wrote:
Yazima wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.

Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement

Angron isn't a duelist.

Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Sanguinius nearly every other Primarch respected and expected to lose against 1-on-1. You're right that there's very little mention of him winning duels against the others (apart from Russ and Konrad).

I'd agree with that, to me Sanguinius is the best duellist outside of strengthened Horus. I still think hes only about 60/40 with Angron though. I can't remember which book its in, maybe a Corax one but he describes Sanguinius as their best weapon against Angron, he states that he is the primarch with the best "chance" of defeating him

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Heck I'd not even call Horus a duelist. That's Fulgrim and Saunguinius' thing.

Fulgrims a duellist because he kills Ferrus Manus? Fulgrims style certainly suits the duelist vibe but he is not on a par with Horus, hell Fulgrim even starts losing to Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus, even the Great Khan frightens Fulgrim. Horus' entire way of war, his ethos to battle (duels included) that is built up throughout every novel he is featured in show what a merciless and efficient fighter he is. I know we are not discussing rules here but I believe his "disabling strike" rule perfectly encapsulates his style, its identical to how he fights against the Emperor in the WD excerpt of their battle. He disables his opponent, slowly dismantling their combat potential without outright killing them - he cuts the Emperor's wrist tendons making him drop his sword first, breaks his spine, tears off his arm. Horus is an absolutely devastating force. I believe Corax ranks him as the strongest Primarch but I could be wrong there. Nonetheless in addition to his brutal fighting style he wields arguably the best wargear amonst the primarch's with his armour being indisputably the finest and the Worldbreaker having been forged by the Emperor himself. He also has feats of battering a transfigured Lorgar into submission (lol) and soundly dismantling Russ. Admittedly Russ almost does nearly kill him but that is heavily implied to be due to the power of the spear in reaction to the Chaos forces now within him and is a lucky, desperate strike after he has been mauled. He is also blinded by his arrogance and newfound powers. I believe a rational Horus Lupercal would have killed Russ exactly as Loken (who has seen both Primarch's fight extensively) predicted.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Now would I expect the Lion to win 1-on-1 against most of the other Primarchs? Sure. The ones he probably can't beat: Sanguinius, maybe Fulgrim (we wont ever know), Vulkan (assuming Vulkan plays the long game and the Lion doesn't account for that so probably a stalemate), Guilliman (only in rematches after Guilliman worked out why he lost last time, maybe).


Why? Other than simple fanboying, I haven't heard any particularly impressive 1v1 feats of the Lion and none of the others ever describe him as being top tier. Angron is explicitly implied multiple times to be beyond him, Fulgrim - no idea, Horus would slap him about. A few borderline friendly bouts with Russ where he wins by a cheap shot is hardly proof of him being top tier imo

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/05 14:39:46


 
   
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Yazima wrote:Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.
While I do absolutely agree that Angron is an absolute beast of a melee Primarch (not being so much a duellist as combat blender), I do want to just clarify the Guilliman fight in Betrayer.

Guilliman is one Primarch, still recovering from extensive void exposure (Lorgar literally notes how Guilliman's skin is unnaturally pale and almost blue/purple as a result), facing off against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time. And, more tellingly, Guilliman does manage to land some pretty nasty hits on Lorgar and Angron both.

"Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets."

While Angron definitely won the fight, it wasn't a curbstomping. And, again, it was a 2v1, and by this point, Angron wasn't exactly far from Daemon Princedom. In fact, it's some of Guilliman's attacks that actually push Angron over the edge (smashing the chain of skulls on Angron's breastplate).

And, while Angron is definitely in that top tier of Primarch combatants, we shouldn't forget that Perturabo royally messes with Daemon Angron.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/05 15:29:33



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Not sure this is resolvable or even has a point.

Any Primarch could've beaten any other Primarch, even multiple other Primarchs, if the plot needed it to happen.

99.999% of the time, it'll always end in some type of stalemate or draw in any type of Primarch vs. Primarch conflict we've seen or will see in the books and other Black Library material out there, simply because there isn't a whole lot of genuine, one-side-gets-wasted beat-downs in the half page or so of original Heresy fluff this is all based on, and those have all pretty much been covered (except Horus vs. Sanguinius at the very end, admittedly).
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yazima wrote:Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.
While I do absolutely agree that Angron is an absolute beast of a melee Primarch (not being so much a duellist as combat blender), I do want to just clarify the Guilliman fight in Betrayer.

Guilliman is one Primarch, still recovering from extensive void exposure (Lorgar literally notes how Guilliman's skin is unnaturally pale and almost blue/purple as a result), facing off against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time. And, more tellingly, Guilliman does manage to land some pretty nasty hits on Lorgar and Angron both.

"Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets."

While Angron definitely won the fight, it wasn't a curbstomping. And, again, it was a 2v1, and by this point, Angron wasn't exactly far from Daemon Princedom. In fact, it's some of Guilliman's attacks that actually push Angron over the edge (smashing the chain of skulls on Angron's breastplate).

And, while Angron is definitely in that top tier of Primarch combatants, we shouldn't forget that Perturabo royally messes with Daemon Angron.
Yes, but the part I am referencing is Angron vs Guilliman alone. 2v1 is actually arguably harder for Angron, he has to worry about protecting Lorgar/Lorgar's mistakes rather than focusing on rip and tear. I take into account your points and they are valid, however Angron's fighting style generally pays little regard to his own protection - its the same with his legion as in their battle with the Space Wolves. When Angron fights he takes hits, he bleeds yet at the end he is standing and his opponent is not, its the exact same principle with his world eaters. At the end of the fight, if it had reached its natural conclusion, there would be world eaters standing, albeit battered and Primarch-less but there would be no wolves. I think all the more impressive is the fact that Angron was fighting Gulliman with CHAINSWORDS. Unpowered, unupgraded chainswords that were explicitly stated to be spitting teeth all fight, that is not an insignificant factor, its like fighting against a steel greatsword with a piece of wood. In the same book Kharn talks about the immense difficulty of using an axe against a dueling sword, imagine the challenge of meeting a primarch-sized, activated powerfist with a friggin chainsword, the strength and stamina that must take is mind boggling. And Angron won, handily. Theres a quote where the old chapter Master of the War Hounds Lorkhe admires how unstoppable his pimarch is saying that despite his power Guilliman has "no chance" against Angron. Oh and just to note Angron 'technically' defeated Leman Russ in single combat with his bare hands. Angrons blade broke and he proceeded to still beat his armed opponent into submission. Yes he took hits and was pretty badly torn up but its nothing he can't take, I mean this is the guy who was buried under thousands of tons of rubble, dug himself 50m underground with nothing but a pair of chainaxes tearing his body apart in the process, was stepped on by a titan. He can take a beating and walk away

Also being daemonic does not necessarily translate to greater power, they gain immortality but essentially become slaves body and soul to the dark gods. From what I've seen Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim all appear far weaker in their Daemonic forms than their Emperor-given forms. Fulgrim and Angron are both beaten by Perty while in daemon form, Mortarion loses to a friggin Grey Knight GM. Becoming daemonic has its advantages and disadvantages

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/05 16:05:31


 
   
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Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.

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pm713 wrote:
Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.

He actively saves him multiple times throughout the book even showing concern the second time. He saves him from being crushed by a titan after he is incapacitated by its plasma blast gun by holding its leg up in the air and he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes
   
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Yazima wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.

He actively saves him multiple times throughout the book even showing concern the second time. He saves him from being crushed by a titan after he is incapacitated by its plasma blast gun by holding its leg up in the air and he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes

Every time I learn about Lorgar I walk away thinking he should have just stopped trying. Why did the Librarians want him dead?

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They believed that he was killing angron with the ritual that turned him into a daemon
   
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Yazima wrote:Yes, but the part I am referencing is Angron vs Guilliman alone. 2v1 is actually arguably harder for Angron, he has to worry about protecting Lorgar/Lorgar's mistakes rather than focusing on rip and tear.
Eh, Lorgar doesn't really get in Angron's way much. Guilliman pretty much takes out Lorgar, gets bogged down by Angron, and then has to contend with the pair of them. There isn't really a case of Angron consiously defending Lorgar.
And Angron won, handily. Theres a quote where the old chapter Master of the War Hounds Lorkhe admires how unstoppable his pimarch is saying that despite his power Guilliman has "no chance" against Angron.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. As my excerpt says, Guilliman gave as good as he got - Guilliman was definitely losing/defeated, but it wasn't one-sided.
Yazima wrote:he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes
Eh, I don't think he saves Lorgar there out of love or kindness. He saves him more because he sees his Librarians as a threat to him and just wants them dead.

pm713 wrote:Why did the Librarians want him dead?
Because he was leading the ritual turning Angron into a Daemon Prince.


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Can't say too much as I don't remember the exact passage, however, in a 3 way duel one weaker party will usually affect the performance of the other. I don't seem to remember the entire duel blow-by-blow being mapped out. Also Guilliman doesn't take Lorgar out, he consciously steps back of his own will and begins the climax of the ritual after Guilliman crushes the skulls around Angrons waist.

Unfortunately the ebook is on my ipad which now won't turn on so I can't find the passage - a great shame since Betrayer is a great book imo. But I distinctly remember a passage where Chapter Master Lorkhe, a Terran born and highly experienced astarte, notes that Guilliman stands "no chace" against Angron. That seems fairly one-sided to me, even with the distinct gear advantage which you've chosen to not respond to and I'd argue its a salient factor (thats not a dig btw). As I previously argued, Angrons style is not self preservation, he leaves engagements with simple Astartes covered in blood and scars. He is all out attack with no regard for defense, I believe Guilliman managed to cause damage because Angron allowed him to, not that he wanted to take it, he's just so focused on offense that he forsakes defense and it wins him the duels. I think ANY primarch could tear Angron up, but very few could last long enough to win, let alone finish the job

I never suggested it was love or kindness, he saves him nonetheless and multiple times at that, probably to repay the debt of him excavating him from underground

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/05 20:31:31


 
   
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While not his greatest fan, I have always felt that if any Primarch should be the 'best combatant', it should be Angron, for no other reason than that he seems utterly useless at everything else.

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 harlokin wrote:
While not his greatest fan, I have always felt that if any Primarch should be the 'best combatant', it should be Angron, for no other reason than that he seems utterly useless at everything else.

The dudes fairly eloquent and clever when he wants to be, he verbally destroys Russ during their encounter and justifies his case fairly well
   
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Dorn named Fulgrim as a “truly singular opponent” in the context of who the strongest primarchs are.

Still, you guys are sleeping on Jaghatai.

My top 5 in a 1v1 would be

Magnus
Sanguinius
Curze
Jaghatai
Fulgrim


Honestly closely followed by Lion, Horus, Russ, and Angron
   
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Wow. A FW primarch model that DOESN'T look like ass... Thats rare.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
I have to admit I did not realise, when I started this thread, that there was a different model for RG in 30 & 40.

I could say why are GW releasing a new 30k lion model when many people are waiting for the other 40k primarchs to be released. It’s a bigger market.

But maybe GW aren’t actually doing that

Forgeworld might be owned by GW, but they are not run by the same teams. You might as well ask why GW are releaseing Aelves in AoS when they still have outdated Craftworld Aeldari in 40k. FW releases have absolutely no bearing on GW releases.

In any case, it's been pretty clear for most of a decade that FW were going to release all of the Primarchs eventually.
   
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Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
   
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mrFickle wrote:
Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?



Most of them.
You’ll find all of them have access to low AP and high strength.
WS really doesn’t matter past that point either.
Still have to worry about concussive though.

Worst rules wise would be Angron as he’s severely outdated now.

Either way, no primarch will kill another one for a while.
Expect a long and drawn out fight before one of them dies.
   
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Maybe another primarch does more damag per hit

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Maybe another primarch does more damag per hit



It’s 30k, damage isn’t a thing.
   
 
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