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Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
While whole legions may not worship Chaos, many splinter groups still do. And even then they're a minority. Rules shouldn't cater to minorities among whole factions.

If anything those groups should have anpart of their legion trait to not roll for a Boon and give them a different bonus to represent their legion traits. Like giving Iron Warriors a 6+++ to represent their heavy augmentarion.

Three out of the the seven legions in the codex are a big minority. And you could still represent chaos worship if you wished through more impactful marks. Csm 3.5 2.0 is what we need. Csm should have lots of options to represent the fact that they're not a standardized force.

@Insectum7, yeah I figured you'd be on the same page.

Meh. I never bought into Night Lords and Alpha Legion being godless. Especially since older stories say Alpha Legion are Tzeentchian.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
While whole legions may not worship Chaos, many splinter groups still do. And even then they're a minority. Rules shouldn't cater to minorities among whole factions.

If anything those groups should have anpart of their legion trait to not roll for a Boon and give them a different bonus to represent their legion traits. Like giving Iron Warriors a 6+++ to represent their heavy augmentarion.

Three out of the the seven legions in the codex are a big minority. And you could still represent chaos worship if you wished through more impactful marks. Csm 3.5 2.0 is what we need. Csm should have lots of options to represent the fact that they're not a standardized force.

@Insectum7, yeah I figured you'd be on the same page.

Meh. I never bought into Night Lords and Alpha Legion being godless. Especially since older stories say Alpha Legion are Tzeentchian.

Can't fully speak for the Alpha Legion, but the Night Lords have been portrayed as being primarily godless in every codex and most fiction. They'll use chaos as a weapon, but they don't worship it, and the warbands that do so are looked down upon by the majority of the legion. The legion never fell to chaos during the Heresy or Scouring, and were already renegades before Horus turned. Chaos wasn't a factor in their turning on the Imperium, they didn't need it, they were monsters from the start.

That's why I love them.
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Night Lords can still fall under Chaos Undivided (I mean they invented Warp Talons didn't they?) and gain boons even if they don't serve any one god.

Like the Beastman from AoS: they'd fight against even the gods if given the chancw but are empowered by a more primeordeal part of Chaos that exists beyond the gods.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

Basic CSM should get to have chainswords, bolt pistols and bolters in their cost for one. Not that it would fix their issues but that would be a nice start.

Death to the False Emperor should be changed to a general exploding 6. And probably apply to shooting as well. Call it Vicious Killers or something. Or keep DttFE abd give CSM a passive reroll 1s to hit in CC.

Give them a second attack.

Keep them the same points and I'd feel a little better when primaris bolt rifles sweep squads off the table in turn 2. And they completely bounce in close combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 22:23:37


 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Giving them a chainsword standard would up their attacks to 2 base, if they add another then they'd be 3 base which feels a bit silly for troops who have access to decent shooting.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

Having attempted to use chainsword chaos marines. The base 1 attack plus the chainsword is not enough to produce much damage. On average 10 csm with chainswords will kill 4 space marines or 2 primaris including hateful assault. Giving them 2 base attacks a chainsword and hateful assault gives you one more space marine or one more primaris on a one wound.

Not too crazy. And csm would still have the issue of being easy to kil. So you would probably need 15-20 chaos marines in a squad to get 10 into close combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 23:49:08


 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:32:52


 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

CSM don't have decent shooting though. They are pretty awful as shooters. I mean sometimes they do something cool with either their heavy or support weapons but from my own experiences opponents are happy to ignore their feeble ranged attacks until its convenient to sweep them off the table.

Basic chaos marines don't want to get in a shoot out with anything in their own weight class/points level.

I'd be happier for their shooting to be cover fire for their punching. At least while punching your opponent won't be shooting up your army.

 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

They have decent shooting. They lack AP on bolters, but a 3+ to hit is never bad.

Heck, playing Sisters for several editions I can say even when AP doean't matter weight of dice always helps and 11ppm CSM bring 50% more bodies than Intercessors on points alone.

The problem is that we're clearly in the middle of some kind of bigger update thing that means CSM aren't being updated further to balance them with enough supporting buffs to fight Marines head to head.

Well, not Iron Hands at least. They are probanly not -that- far off from being on par with the weaker traits.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They have decent shooting. They lack AP on bolters, but a 3+ to hit is never bad.

Heck, playing Sisters for several editions I can say even when AP doean't matter weight of dice always helps and 11ppm CSM bring 50% more bodies than Intercessors on points alone.

The problem is that we're clearly in the middle of some kind of bigger update thing that means CSM aren't being updated further to balance them with enough supporting buffs to fight Marines head to head.

Well, not Iron Hands at least. They are probanly not -that- far off from being on par with the weaker traits.
I've run the numbers.

Black Templar Intercessors, standing and shooting from 30" away against Alpha Legion CSM, win. It takes a while, but the least shooty Imperial Marine chapter beats the best CSM Chapter playing to their strengths.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

 JNAProductions wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
They have decent shooting. They lack AP on bolters, but a 3+ to hit is never bad.

Heck, playing Sisters for several editions I can say even when AP doean't matter weight of dice always helps and 11ppm CSM bring 50% more bodies than Intercessors on points alone.

The problem is that we're clearly in the middle of some kind of bigger update thing that means CSM aren't being updated further to balance them with enough supporting buffs to fight Marines head to head.

Well, not Iron Hands at least. They are probanly not -that- far off from being on par with the weaker traits.
I've run the numbers.

Black Templar Intercessors, standing and shooting from 30" away against Alpha Legion CSM, win. It takes a while, but the least shooty Imperial Marine chapter beats the best CSM Chapter playing to their strengths.

Let me crunch some numbers that actually make sense.

So let's look at 5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles vs 5 Alpha Legionnaires at 24". Both groups will rapid fire, both will reroll 1s to hit.
Intercessors shooting Alpha Legion (no cover, no doctrine)
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
1.46 failed saves
1.46 dead CSM

Intercessors shooting Alpha Legion (cover, no doctrine):
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
.97 failed saves
.97 dead CSM

Intercessors with Tactical doctrine vs Alpha Legion in cover is the same as no cover and no doctrine, so let's skip that for no cover and with tactical doctrine:
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
1.94 failed saves
1.94 dead CSM

And finally 5 CSM shooting back:
10 shots
7.78 hits
3.89 wounds
1.3 failed saves
1.3 wounds = .41 models killed

5 CSM shooting with a Combi-bolters:
12 Shots
9.33 hits
4.67 wounds
1.56 failed saves
1.56 wounds = .53 dead models

Obviously I'm not mixing in other stuff the CSM could take and still be as cheap as the Intercessors, or at most the same cost, but they hit at about the same weight in this scenario. They don't tank wounds at the same weight though, and when they lose that extra -1 to hit then things get messier for them.

The flip side is people tend to ignore CSM, but they don't ignore Intercessors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 02:46:22


 
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

While its more back end points I don't think intercessors leave home without a flat reroll to hit and reroll ones to wound.

Codex marines have so many stacked passive buffs that chaos just doesn't have. And in vacuum comparisons don't really tell the story. But that fact that you have to tie intercessors hands behind their backs while giving CSM their one legion that helps for shooting to even get close to parity is sad. But then primaris win in the long run anyways as half dead primaris keep shooting and every dead csm lowers their chance of killing back significantly.

So its then 5 primaris vs 4 csm. Then 4 primaris vs 3 csm. Then 4 primaris vs 2. Then 4 primaris vs 1. Then just 4 primaris.

CSM get in one good hit and then crumble.


EDIT: you know what I think I might have a legitimate way to fix CSM. Let me mix Chaos Space Marines and Cultists in squads. Make a Chaos Crusaders squad. It becomes a poor man's primaris. For every one CSM you can have one Cultist in the squad. So as a primaris is spending 6 pts for +1 T4 W, +1 S4 A and a better gun CSM can pay 4pts for 1 T3 W, no LD, +1 S3 A and a second but worse gun. And killing cultist don't count for morale purposes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 04:23:01


 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

 BrotherGecko wrote:
While its more back end points I don't think intercessors leave home without a flat reroll to hit and reroll ones to wound.

Codex marines have so many stacked passive buffs that chaos just doesn't have. And in vacuum comparisons don't really tell the story. But that fact that you have to tie intercessors hands behind their backs while giving CSM their one legion that helps for shooting to even get close to parity is sad. But then primaris win in the long run anyways as half dead primaris keep shooting and every dead csm lowers their chance of killing back significantly.

So its then 5 primaris vs 4 csm. Then 4 primaris vs 3 csm. Then 4 primaris vs 2. Then 4 primaris vs 1. Then just 4 primaris.

CSM get in one good hit and then crumble.


EDIT: you know what I think I might have a legitimate way to fix CSM. Let me mix Chaos Space Marines and Cultists in squads. Make a Chaos Crusaders squad. It becomes a poor man's primaris. For every one CSM you can have one Cultist in the squad. So as a primaris is spending 6 pts for +1 T4 W, +1 S4 A and a better gun CSM can pay 4pts for 1 T3 W, no LD, +1 S3 A and a second but worse gun. And killing cultist don't count for morale purposes.

These days, you're right, Marines likely don't go anywhere without a Chapter Master and maybe Guilliman. I didn't get into CP buffs or some of the other chapter buffs either.

If anything it only reinforces the ludonarrative dissonance between fluff and rules for CSM where the CSM are supposed to be pushing the Imperium onto it's back foot and only the Primaris might allow them to reach a new equalibrium.

And don't mix Cultists into squads. Just make them work like Shield Drones. On a 4+ they intercept a wound as a mortal wound as a Marine grabs them as uses their body as a shield.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points.

In one game running 20 red corsair marines the squad got decimated by primaris turn 1 to a few guys. So I spent CPs to bring back a full squad, deployed them in my opponents back line. Charged a squad of 5 primaris and killed nothing, lost a few, failed morale and by my 3rd turn they were all gone. 40 CSM couldn't even achieve killing 5 primaris.

Take them because you think they look cool. Expect them to never contribute.

No idea how to fix them. The game ground up probably would have to change to make them worth while again.


Were these just regular melee CSM or berzerkers?

He was using Red Corsairs, so Chaos Marines is implied. GW tried to incentivize them with a dumb CP bonus purely under Red Corsairs, only to fail to realize that you only get a couple less without them. Their rules just give a bonus in the first place after all.


Ok, that makes sense. I kind of wish they did that for the various legions for their different cult marines, e.g. berzerkers for WE, noise marines for EC, plague marines for DG, rubrics for TS, and possessed for WB.
   
Made in de
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Germany

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
A lot of the points I am seeing here lead me to the conclusion that if you are someone like me, who wants to use CSM to fill out a battalion, take them in five man squads with bolters, maybe give the champ a combi bolter and chainsword, and fill the rest of my list with killy choices, such as havocs, possessed, etc.


Yes, thats the way to do it. Dont spend too many points on CSM. IMHO AL is the best chaos legion. Any renegade legion like RC has one major disadvantage, they cant use votlw.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Basic CSM should get to have chainswords, bolt pistols and bolters / exploding 6 and probably apply to shooting as well / a passive reroll 1s to hit in CC / a second attack / Keep them the same points
The inevitable destination of all CSM threads for several years now.

Basic MEQ infantry doesn't really work in 8th. Even sisters whose entire codex is based around stacking bonuses and rigging dice rolls is built around a core tactic of "try to die more slowly". Stacking lots of free buffs just breaks the game a little more, as with regular SMs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 09:20:12


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Strange to see people having problems with WB lists. On paper they have some excellent tools. Maybe I should sub in a WB warband to see how it plays out.
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Table wrote:
Strange to see people having problems with WB lists. On paper they have some excellent tools. Maybe I should sub in a WB warband to see how it plays out.

The problem WB has is the Legion Trait only really benefits taking larger squads (which people don't want to do because they want more CP, so they spam MSU instead), and their main bonus is for summoning (which no one really uses in matched play due to all the restrictions it has).

Don't get me wrong, they have some nice buffs (D2 Possessed is great for example), but those are merely bandaids for the bigger problems the army has.
   
Made in ro
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.


This is what Black Legion and world eater already can do and you don't see anybody raving about how good that is.
1 base + 1 chainsword + hatful assault + WE bonus/ BL stratagem.

And this is despite being able to take out knights in one round of combat if you stack the usual buffs on them.
You still have to actually get there in one piece and they quickly crumble under any enemy attention.
On their own they're ok but you need the buffs which makes them overall quite expensive for how flimsy they are.
Not to mention getting those buffs applied.
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

 Roknar wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was talking about CSM plus Chainsword, plus an additional base attack -before- Hateful Assault triggers. That's 4 attacks on a troop choice that also packs decent shooting. That would be a bit silly.


This is what Black Legion and world eater already can do and you don't see anybody raving about how good that is.
1 base + 1 chainsword + hatful assault + WE bonus/ BL stratagem.

And this is despite being able to take out knights in one round of combat if you stack the usual buffs on them.
You still have to actually get there in one piece and they quickly crumble under any enemy attention.
On their own they're ok but you need the buffs which makes them overall quite expensive for how flimsy they are.
Not to mention getting those buffs applied.

I don't people even rate the WE one when you can smack the opponent with 8 attacks per berserker.

And you're right, they are flimsy, which is why melee only armies don't work this edition. I don't hate the way this edition has taken the game, but they definitely need more work for CSM to feel like actual Astartes on the table.
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Basic CSM should get to have chainswords, bolt pistols and bolters / exploding 6 and probably apply to shooting as well / a passive reroll 1s to hit in CC / a second attack / Keep them the same points
The inevitable destination of all CSM threads for several years now.

Basic MEQ infantry doesn't really work in 8th. Even sisters whose entire codex is based around stacking bonuses and rigging dice rolls is built around a core tactic of "try to die more slowly". Stacking lots of free buffs just breaks the game a little more, as with regular SMs.


Well yah the game floor up would need to be redone for power armor units to do what is claimed on the box. The game has too many high rate of fire medium strength weapons. This has been an issue for a few game editions though. 8th just made it worse by adding a save reducing mechanic to a lot of those weapons.

GW isn't going to go back and have a redo however.

So either its a bucket of free buffs to try and make power armor more appealing or I guess just give them an extra wound and make bolters -1ap for 3-4 nore points.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BrotherGecko wrote:
So either its a bucket of free buffs to try and make power armor more appealing or I guess just give them an extra wound and make bolters -1ap for 3-4 nore points.
Making them stronger and more expensive is the best solution. It's a pity GW were so glued to the older edition stat lines during the move to 8th.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
They have decent shooting. They lack AP on bolters, but a 3+ to hit is never bad.

Heck, playing Sisters for several editions I can say even when AP doean't matter weight of dice always helps and 11ppm CSM bring 50% more bodies than Intercessors on points alone.

The problem is that we're clearly in the middle of some kind of bigger update thing that means CSM aren't being updated further to balance them with enough supporting buffs to fight Marines head to head.

Well, not Iron Hands at least. They are probanly not -that- far off from being on par with the weaker traits.
I've run the numbers.

Black Templar Intercessors, standing and shooting from 30" away against Alpha Legion CSM, win. It takes a while, but the least shooty Imperial Marine chapter beats the best CSM Chapter playing to their strengths.

Let me crunch some numbers that actually make sense.

So let's look at 5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles vs 5 Alpha Legionnaires at 24". Both groups will rapid fire, both will reroll 1s to hit.
Intercessors shooting Alpha Legion (no cover, no doctrine)
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
1.46 failed saves
1.46 dead CSM

Intercessors shooting Alpha Legion (cover, no doctrine):
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
.97 failed saves
.97 dead CSM

Intercessors with Tactical doctrine vs Alpha Legion in cover is the same as no cover and no doctrine, so let's skip that for no cover and with tactical doctrine:
10 shots
5.83 hits
2.92 wounds
1.94 failed saves
1.94 dead CSM

And finally 5 CSM shooting back:
10 shots
7.78 hits
3.89 wounds
1.3 failed saves
1.3 wounds = .41 models killed

5 CSM shooting with a Combi-bolters:
12 Shots
9.33 hits
4.67 wounds
1.56 failed saves
1.56 wounds = .53 dead models

Obviously I'm not mixing in other stuff the CSM could take and still be as cheap as the Intercessors, or at most the same cost, but they hit at about the same weight in this scenario. They don't tank wounds at the same weight though, and when they lose that extra -1 to hit then things get messier for them.

The flip side is people tend to ignore CSM, but they don't ignore Intercessors.

You kinda forgot one part of that: those were Black Templar Intercessors.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.


Does 10 get more heavy/special weapons than 2x5? Because if not then it's just softer less flexible platform. Thought it was 1 if 5, 2 if 10 which makes 2x5 tougher more flexible than 1x10.

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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On the Internet

Them being Black Templars changes nothing about the shooting since it doesn't buff the shooting.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ClockworkZion wrote:
Obviously I'm not mixing in other stuff the CSM could take and still be as cheap as the Intercessors, or at most the same cost, but they hit at about the same weight in this scenario. They don't tank wounds at the same weight though, and when they lose that extra -1 to hit then things get messier for them.
At the end of the day CSMs / tactical marines should never be trading favourably in a long range small arms firefight with Intercessor-type units.

CSMs / tactical marines have other things that they do better, Intercessors don't - this is their niche in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 14:38:47


 
   
Made in us
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Them being Black Templars changes nothing about the shooting since it doesn't buff the shooting.

That's exactly my point. You chose the best trait for CSM against a unit that has no buffing to its shooting. That shows how little utility the Chaos Marine has.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
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Germany

tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.


Does 10 get more heavy/special weapons than 2x5? Because if not then it's just softer less flexible platform. Thought it was 1 if 5, 2 if 10 which makes 2x5 tougher more flexible than 1x10.


10 is also worse than 2x5, because you only get one champion for the same points.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.


Does 10 get more heavy/special weapons than 2x5? Because if not then it's just softer less flexible platform. Thought it was 1 if 5, 2 if 10 which makes 2x5 tougher more flexible than 1x10.


10 is also worse than 2x5, because you only get one champion for the same points.

That's why encouraging better weapon saturation is key. Look at Kalabites for example. You only get one special weapon in a minimum squad, but a maxed squad gets an additional one AND a Heavy Weapon. Scions don't really mind themselves as they get the extra two weapons and a Hotshot Lasgun from the grunt is better than the Sarge stuck with just pistols. There's clearly ways to do it. However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.


Does 10 get more heavy/special weapons than 2x5? Because if not then it's just softer less flexible platform. Thought it was 1 if 5, 2 if 10 which makes 2x5 tougher more flexible than 1x10.


you still want, if you really want to rely on CSM, get 10 man squads instead of 5 man ones for taking advantage of the RC stratagem and Cacophony, which 10 man squads do better whilest not beeing overly punished by morale.
20 man squads get shot 14 times and the rest run. The Champion slot for a combiweapon is not worth the losing on max damage output and durability overall.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 15:56:07


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In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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