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Made in us
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roboemperor wrote:
The whole canon/noncanon thing is just GW justifying their desire to retcon anything and everything they want. Nothing more.

So unless a later source material definitively contradicts and earlier fluff, it's canon until further notice.

There's canon which can taken more seriously than others. Codex is about as official as it gets, videogame by minor studio is waaaay down the totem pole.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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roboemperor wrote:


Right. Everything is a legend. Everything is a rumor. Everything is a second hand accounting.Everything is true. Everything is not true.

Nice "continuity" you got there. Explain how it works then..


It works because GW works much like american superhero comics. It doesn't matter that there's several dozen different versions of Batman through the ages. They are all canon in their own way by virtue that they all embody similar tropes and themes that remain mostly fixed. Only the specific details shift around, the generalist concept remains the same (barring those alter-ego ones of course).

40K works the same way; there are specific details but they are not set in stone. Authors, creators can change and shift them around; adjustments are made and the game moves forward. It's why Titans from Titan Legions era when it was just titans are often depicted in the art as being VASTLY bigger than they are in most of the games and much of the modern lore. Then again some of the cities they march through have also grown in size. 40K does not have a JRR Tolkien who is master of world building holding allthe cards keeping it tightly constrained to specifics. Instead they aim for the cinematic style. As long as that Battle Barge is a floating cathedral in space with over the top gothic architecture then it doesn't matter really if its 1 mile or 10 miles long. That latter part is a specific that doesn't matter so much as the feel and theme of the flying cathedral.

   
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Norn Iron

 Overread wrote:
I'd forgotten that bit on the dominatrix carrying them, though I've a feeling that it might be a bit of lore that's shifted around a bit. I recall it being something in Epic 40K, but since then the queens have shifted. IT might also be that the idea of the queen has never really been set in stone in the lore itself (since it has no model) and that as a result we might have two or three different types of queen or creature; all called the Norn Qyeen.


Never much went for the idea of the Dominatrix carrying around the 'real' synapse creature on it's back. Symbiotic creatures don't make much sense when you're talking about a superorganism that can shuffle selected genetic sequences around at will and grow the results. Surely a better idea to stick that set of psychic synapses in a thickly-armoured head rather than in a high-up exposed cradle?
I could make an exception for bio-weapons, but again, why glue different creatures together when you can grow them whole? It's not like that individual termagant is ever going to swap out it's fleshborer for a deathspitter.

Ditto Old One Eye and the Swarmlord. Background-wise, special characters are anathema to Tyranids. It's like making a Borg Queen. Not to mention Old One Eye turned up in third, looking kind of incongruous alongside those ridiculously customisable mutation rules. I'd agree with the idea that they're a ocassional genetic glitch that the Hive Mind somehow, somehow, hasn't figured out how to replicate

   
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I'm ok with specialists in the Swarm. They just need to be like Malanthropes in that they are simply higher organisms that are super rare and hard to recreate so the Swarm only makes very few of them. Gameplay wise it lets Tyranids have "heroes" that are not heros; model wise it gives us more choices and lore wise it gives GW more big beasties they can beat up and kill without Tyranids ever "losing" them.


Personally I'd rather Old One Eye slipped into being a myth and just being a tough as nails carni. Instead creatures like the Red Terror and Deathleaper are more suitable for that mysterious almost unique Tyranid that seems to sneak its way in everywhere.

   
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I like the idea that 'special character' nids require some sort of rare resource as a catalyst for their growth and accordingly they are more limited in how often the Hive Mind can deploy them. So if Old One Eye needs the fleet to expend plottinite to grow, their deployment of Old One Eyes is limited by the supply of plottinite. Accordingly Old One Eyes are only deployed sparingly and not more than one at the same battlefield in order to not overspend plottinite.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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Much like the Doom of Malan'Tai requires a Zoanthrope (or likely Neurothrope now) to devour a vast glut of Eldar spirit stones and souls and psychic energies in order to reach full potential. The kind of thing that will only very rarely happen. A creature that the Swarm might not break down at the end of combat and will preserve. Passing it from swarm to swarm as needed. Rare creatures that are possible to replicate, just very very hard to achieve in the end.

   
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Norn Iron

Sort of a 'nurture on top of nature', environmental trigger effect, like migratory locusts? I can dig it.

   
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Fixture of Dakka




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You know what I find most interesting about Tyranids.

Go look at the first generation tyranids - most of their weapons are held in their arms. They have clearly defined hands and talons holding weapons.

Sure they still have blades and claws, but the majority are held weapons, even if they might have a connection tube to the unit using them.


Steadily as we head thorugh the following generations of evolution we see more and more the weapons fusing into the arms of the Tyranids. More and more we get models where the gun is inseparable.
Makes you wonder about future generations, will the weapons continue to blurr and meld into the Tyranid form. Does this represent the Swarm's hyper evolution getting more and more focused on war and war alone and perhaps does it also suggest that earlier strains were more adaptive at an individual level. We also see this with Warriors, Carnifex and tyrants - the original core of the army which are all very adaptable with weapon types. Moving forward things like the Exocrine and alike are much more singular in their focus. Designed from birth for a single role .

   
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Auckland, NZ

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like the idea that 'special character' nids require some sort of rare resource as a catalyst for their growth and accordingly they are more limited in how often the Hive Mind can deploy them. So if Old One Eye needs the fleet to expend plottinite to grow, their deployment of Old One Eyes is limited by the supply of plottinite. Accordingly Old One Eyes are only deployed sparingly and not more than one at the same battlefield in order to not overspend plottinite.

I recall back in the previous codex, the fluff for the swarmlords bone sabers said they contain a crystal core that can't be found in our galaxy. So that sort of fits.
   
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The concept of a special character is weird only in that they won't just deploy broods of them.

There have been more primarch clones running around than simultaneous swarm lords. It's dumb.


The swarm doesn't need to exclusify its resources like that an indeed it's antithetical to their way of existence that they don't absolutely capitalise on the creation of a swarmlord by making every new hive tyrant a swarm lord.


The character of a nid army should be in its unique expression of the Hive Mind due to its evolutionary history. The Gestalt mind of the uberswarm is still just a communications network rather than a true singularity of being.

It's not unlike all the disparate infinity circuits combining to form Ynnead. Each one is still a unique expression.


If they want people to have characters in their army, they need to create Hive Mind Quirks, or Traits that reflect the unique evolutionary path of that particular swarm.

The HM can still deploy intelligent organisms with personality, it's just that they're expressions of that swarm's gestalt mind in particular forms.

Unlike a normal army you wouldn't use unique names for special characters, but rather unique designations, like Nexus Prime, Covert Echelon etc.




   
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Look at it as a resources vs result dynamic. If growing a Swarmlord costs the same amount of resources as growing 2000 Termagants, the Hive Mind will only grow the Swarmlord when a Swarmlord is more useful than 2000 Termigants.

If a Hive Fleet is eating a world full of civilians that don't have weapons, the Hive Mind can throw Rippers at them with some Warriors or Malanthropes to run the show. If the Hive Fleet is facing an armored division, it has to grow some Hive Guard to kill the tanks cause Rippers can't get it done.

If the Hive Fleet is facing organized resistance lead by a skilled, experienced leader with strong plot armor and a wide range of units, it grows a Swarmlord.
   
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Tyranids have always practised varied production of units. If they only produced the best of the best we'd only have Hive Tyrants on the table and nothing else - smart, physic, synapse monsters with thick armour, fast mobility and an array of weapon options from artillery to close combat and wings. Why make anything else if there are no limits to what the Swarm produces.

They'd just make billions of Hive Tyrants and win every battle.

Instead we see a vast amount of specialist diversity and a focus on swarming concepts. We see synapse as a limited resource within the swarm as well as a whole range of units that appear only rarely from a few within a swarm down to single instances. Clearly rare resources are a thing for hte Swarm and it might even be that within its network of thinking of the Hive Mind that it has to have gaunts and non-synapse creatures as part of how it lives and exists.

Another consideration is that we don't know the history of the Swarm; some of these limited units might be the result of long seated elements from way back when it began life. Old ways of approaching things much like how necrons still have pilots on some vehicles because they still cling to a non-machine past. Tyranids might be clinging to something like that, only for them instead of a closer to emotional link; its perhaps instinctive or genetic.

   
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 Overread wrote:
Tyranids have always practised varied production of units. If they only produced the best of the best we'd only have Hive Tyrants on the table and nothing else - smart, physic, synapse monsters with thick armour, fast mobility and an array of weapon options from artillery to close combat and wings. Why make anything else if there are no limits to what the Swarm produces.

They'd just make billions of Hive Tyrants and win every battle.

Instead we see a vast amount of specialist diversity and a focus on swarming concepts. We see synapse as a limited resource within the swarm as well as a whole range of units that appear only rarely from a few within a swarm down to single instances. Clearly rare resources are a thing for hte Swarm and it might even be that within its network of thinking of the Hive Mind that it has to have gaunts and non-synapse creatures as part of how it lives and exists.

Another consideration is that we don't know the history of the Swarm; some of these limited units might be the result of long seated elements from way back when it began life. Old ways of approaching things much like how necrons still have pilots on some vehicles because they still cling to a non-machine past. Tyranids might be clinging to something like that, only for them instead of a closer to emotional link; its perhaps instinctive or genetic.

I've always felt that the Tyranid Warriors are as close to the "baseline" Tyranid entity that we see. They're more flexible than any other Tyranid in terms of what gear they can have, which makes me think most other species are designed later to be more specialized designs. One gets the sense that a Hive Tyrant is a "hero" Tyranid Warrior (and the early descriptions described the Tyrant as a big Tyranid Warrior). Warriors are also the baseline Synapse creature. Gaunts are like attack dogs, Genestealers are infiltrators, Carnifexes are Dreadnoughts, etc. And going waaay back, the first "Tyranid" model was warrior-sized, looking like a big Hunter-Slayer/Termagant.

But I also doubt that the Warriors are the grand genetic manipulators. The reference to the Norn Queen is obviously reminiscent of ants or bees. I could see the "original" Tyranids being proto-Warriors headed by a proto-Norn Queen. A hive-society that grew to be very advanced, and very aggressive, and the rest is history.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/30 03:51:54


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
And going waaay back, the first "Tyranid" model was warrior-sized, looking like a big Hunter-Slayer/Termagant.
.


They weren't that big. I've got a pair of the RT tyranid models, they're roughly termagant sized (odd for 2 wound models) and termagant looking, but have some really weird design choices. Their bolters are biological looking, but their middle limbs are hooved (which they run on) and their back limbs are webbed.

That said, you're likely right about the rest. The RT zoat entry describes the other 'slave races' as little more than animals.

Amusingly, the original tyranid entry makes mention of them using mines of minerals and fuels as well as biological material when stripping planets, and they don't leave planets until reducing it to just airless rock.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/31 01:06:48


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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^ The one in this article? The thing looks pretty big compared to the Space Marines it's next to in the photo, and the subsequent size comparison against a Guardsmen. Mind you, these are the Space Marines of the era, which are smaller than the ones of today. But the comparative size still makes the Tyranid pretty beastly!

https://auretioustaak.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/the-rarest-of-them-all-the-unreleased-protonid-aka-the-rogue-trader-tyranid/

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
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Gladius is not canon. Simple as that really.

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Welp I just got Gladius on sale but after 4 hours debugging it on all possible ends it still woudln't run so I asked for a refund :/

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
 
   
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Did you ask on the support threads - though its only just Monday so staff might not have been around at the weekend to provide advice.

   
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They got some kind of vulcan thing that doesnt run on older computers. less old computers had to manually download a driver update.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^ The one in this article? The thing looks pretty big compared to the Space Marines it's next to in the photo, and the subsequent size comparison against a Guardsmen. Mind you, these are the Space Marines of the era, which are smaller than the ones of today. But the comparative size still makes the Tyranid pretty beastly!

https://auretioustaak.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/the-rarest-of-them-all-the-unreleased-protonid-aka-the-rogue-trader-tyranid/


The unreleased one? That they didn't put into production? No. It might as well be a 3-Up for all the relevance it has (well, a 2-Up).

But the ones they actually released and used aren't that big.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^ The one in this article? The thing looks pretty big compared to the Space Marines it's next to in the photo, and the subsequent size comparison against a Guardsmen. Mind you, these are the Space Marines of the era, which are smaller than the ones of today. But the comparative size still makes the Tyranid pretty beastly!

https://auretioustaak.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/the-rarest-of-them-all-the-unreleased-protonid-aka-the-rogue-trader-tyranid/


The unreleased one? That they didn't put into production? No. It might as well be a 3-Up for all the relevance it has (well, a 2-Up).

But the ones they actually released and used aren't that big.

Well then I'm unaware of which model you are referring to, unless you're talking about the little Hunter-Slayers, (proto-termagant). As for relevance I was talking about the evolution of the Tyranid Warrior, of which I the unreleased model appears to be the first iteration. It's roughly the size of the plastic ones released for 40K, Advanced Space Crusade and Tyranid Attack.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^ The one in this article? The thing looks pretty big compared to the Space Marines it's next to in the photo, and the subsequent size comparison against a Guardsmen. Mind you, these are the Space Marines of the era, which are smaller than the ones of today. But the comparative size still makes the Tyranid pretty beastly!

https://auretioustaak.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/the-rarest-of-them-all-the-unreleased-protonid-aka-the-rogue-trader-tyranid/


The unreleased one? That they didn't put into production? No. It might as well be a 3-Up for all the relevance it has (well, a 2-Up).

But the ones they actually released and used aren't that big.

Well then I'm unaware of which model you are referring to, unless you're talking about the little Hunter-Slayers, (proto-termagant). As for relevance I was talking about the evolution of the Tyranid Warrior, of which I the unreleased model appears to be the first iteration. It's roughly the size of the plastic ones released for 40K, Advanced Space Crusade and Tyranid Attack.


They're the same model, but smaller- same pose, same weapon, same head nodules. They were the 'tyranid' from the RT rulebook (which later became the warrior).

Basically the pink one in the article you linked, if that's a 25mm base. (As opposed to the bigger 'tan' one in the rulebook photo)

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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^The only thing I find that matches that description is what later became the Hunter-Slayers, and then Termagants. I found what looks to be an old catalog image of them referencing them as Tyranids, and describing the pointing one as a "leader". They Tyranid model picture in the RT rulebook is the big guy and it's a bit different.

In fact there appears to be two versions of the big guy, one with the mouth open and one with it closed, although they both look the same size.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/02 06:03:21


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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France

 Overread wrote:
Did you ask on the support threads - though its only just Monday so staff might not have been around at the weekend to provide advice.


Actually didn't ask myself, however i noticed throughout Slitherine's forum that people had the issue since they released their last dlc, found little helpful. Other forums had solved the problem by different means that unfortunatly didn't work out for me...

Kind of went in an anger fit anyway that totally sucked up all hype of playing this game! Since I'm not coming back home that often I won't commit hours at my place to try and get this working, I'd rather stick to other, functionnal games.

Still wanted to warn that people might have to fix malfunctions, sorry for the rant!

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
 
   
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Codex Tyranids, 8th edition, page 7:

"THE HIVE MIND

The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid hive fleet as a separate force, an individual entity that competes with other hive fleets for resources. Indeed, each is self-sufficient, appearing to exhibit different strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome its prey. However, the truth is more complex, for each hive fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage. The Tyranids’ numbers are vast beyond counting, swarms so large that they block out the very stars, yet each and every creature is but a single cell in the living body of a single super-organism.
Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind. It holds all Tyranids in a psychic bond that enables them to act in perfect synchronicity. Under the influence of this ancient consciousness, the Tyranids have fed on countless planets and devoured civilisations since time immemorial."

The tyranid codex > low budget pc game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/02 23:26:20


Tyranid fanboy.

Been around since 3rd edition. 
   
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You can easily draw parallels between the hive Mind and the chaos gods. In this instance the hive Mind is like the god of survival.

Just as a chaos god's demons are but slivers of its being, the Tyranids are individual components of the hive mind
.
Each daemon has its own personality despite being from the same source. Greater demons have an even greater singular identity and see themselves as separate entities distinct from one another.

Therefore I can see hive fleets themselves being identities in a similar way, each with individual organisms that make them up.

Combined they are the hive mind, but they have more autonomy than just separate parts of a single organism, just as the bloodthirsters are autonomous within the scope of khornes domain



   
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Exalted for good analogy.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
roboemperor wrote:


Right. Everything is a legend. Everything is a rumor. Everything is a second hand accounting.Everything is true. Everything is not true.

Nice "continuity" you got there. Explain how it works then..


It works because GW works much like american superhero comics. It doesn't matter that there's several dozen different versions of Batman through the ages. They are all canon in their own way by virtue that they all embody similar tropes and themes that remain mostly fixed. Only the specific details shift around, the generalist concept remains the same (barring those alter-ego ones of course).

40K works the same way; there are specific details but they are not set in stone. Authors, creators can change and shift them around; adjustments are made and the game moves forward. It's why Titans from Titan Legions era when it was just titans are often depicted in the art as being VASTLY bigger than they are in most of the games and much of the modern lore. Then again some of the cities they march through have also grown in size. 40K does not have a JRR Tolkien who is master of world building holding all loating cathedral in space with over the top gothic architecture then it doesn't matter really if its 1 mile or 10 miles long. That latter part is a specific that doesn't matter so much as the feel and theme of the flying cathedral.


This may just about be the most sensible approach to 40k lore I have ever read. 40K is a setting (much like forgotten realms in dnd for example) where its more about making your own story than "this is what happened".

40k was born in the mid 80s, a time that tabletop roleplaying was arguably at its height (or possibly just past it) and the concept of "continuity" in any given IP wasn't much thought of because at that time (and trust me, I was there) gaming was mostly done in small, isolated groups of friends (we did not have this new fandangled internet stuff, hell, it was difficult enough to convince your parents to let you borrow the house phone for an hour to talk to your friends) so gaming backgrounds were more open ended and up to you to decide what to do with them. This is why 40k codices are pretty much the definition of "unreliable narrator" fiction biased towards the race in question as it is designed to give you ideas for your own narrative rather than constrict you to following one path or timeline ("battletech" "cough cough" is a great game but I never liked the whole ongoing timeline stuff myself though thats kind of the point)

At the end of the day, I guess that what I'm saying is "if you wanna go with one thing over another go for it, but don't insist others have to subscribe to your inerpretation of lore.

Edit for on topic reasons: I personally like the idea that all Tyranids everywhere are 1 conscious being as I find it far more frightening that all these various hive fleet attacks could be the work of 1 individual so different from our own concept of what an individual is that we struggle to understand it. This may very well be because I am a massive H.P.Lovecraft fan however and the concept of the unknowable alien "thing"appeals to me in particular.

2nd edit: silly grammatical errors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/06 20:20:34


 
   
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I talked around people who know people who know people who know people that worked in game stores.

They all unanimously say
1. GW is greedy as hell
2. GW is incredibly protective of their IP and everyone must be within the boundaries they set for them.

So any of you who says GW sells their IP to anyone is making a baseless claim.

Everything that happens in Gladius is approved by GW.
   
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France

princeyg wrote:
 Overread wrote:
roboemperor wrote:


Right. Everything is a legend. Everything is a rumor. Everything is a second hand accounting.Everything is true. Everything is not true.

Nice "continuity" you got there. Explain how it works then..


It works because GW works much like american superhero comics. It doesn't matter that there's several dozen different versions of Batman through the ages. They are all canon in their own way by virtue that they all embody similar tropes and themes that remain mostly fixed. Only the specific details shift around, the generalist concept remains the same (barring those alter-ego ones of course).

40K works the same way; there are specific details but they are not set in stone. Authors, creators can change and shift them around; adjustments are made and the game moves forward. It's why Titans from Titan Legions era when it was just titans are often depicted in the art as being VASTLY bigger than they are in most of the games and much of the modern lore. Then again some of the cities they march through have also grown in size. 40K does not have a JRR Tolkien who is master of world building holding all loating cathedral in space with over the top gothic architecture then it doesn't matter really if its 1 mile or 10 miles long. That latter part is a specific that doesn't matter so much as the feel and theme of the flying cathedral.


This may just about be the most sensible approach to 40k lore I have ever read. 40K is a setting (much like forgotten realms in dnd for example) where its more about making your own story than "this is what happened".

40k was born in the mid 80s, a time that tabletop roleplaying was arguably at its height (or possibly just past it) and the concept of "continuity" in any given IP wasn't much thought of because at that time (and trust me, I was there) gaming was mostly done in small, isolated groups of friends (we did not have this new fandangled internet stuff, hell, it was difficult enough to convince your parents to let you borrow the house phone for an hour to talk to your friends) so gaming backgrounds were more open ended and up to you to decide what to do with them. This is why 40k codices are pretty much the definition of "unreliable narrator" fiction biased towards the race in question as it is designed to give you ideas for your own narrative rather than constrict you to following one path or timeline ("battletech" "cough cough" is a great game but I never liked the whole ongoing timeline stuff myself though thats kind of the point)

At the end of the day, I guess that what I'm saying is "if you wanna go with one thing over another go for it, but don't insist others have to subscribe to your inerpretation of lore.

Edit for on topic reasons: I personally like the idea that all Tyranids everywhere are 1 conscious being as I find it far more frightening that all these various hive fleet attacks could be the work of 1 individual so different from our own concept of what an individual is that we struggle to understand it. This may very well be because I am a massive H.P.Lovecraft fan however and the concept of the unknowable alien "thing"appeals to me in particular.

2nd edit: silly grammatical errors.


Glory to the headcannon! I feel that until 8th edition when GW really started to want to have things move along and so way tighter drove the story, it was, as often stated on dakka, a setting, a sandbox, not a story. So GW gave you many the boundaries in with you are too play, with many details to help find your place and set up a credible sandbox... then all the rest is yours to do. That's actually the most important part of wargaming to me: assemble whatever books, rules, minis and friends you have at hand and carve you little piece of fun in that sandbox. After all, at the end of the day, neither the internet nor GW nor the government will watch over your shoulder what you make out of the lore.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/07 19:44:20


40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
 
   
 
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