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Martel732 wrote: All single shot high quality weapons are basically garbage now.
*dealer spins roulette wheel*
Martel: Welp, that's it, I'm out of here, it's definitely going to land on red. Dammit, lost money again!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
What I can see happening is that High ROF weapons getting a price hike, and due to a bit more consistency, blast weapons will follow suit. This does alleviate design space as it does allow for high quality shots to remain relatively cheaper, making them a more efficient AV tool
And this would mean that vehicles and monsters suddenly become very hard to kill. So any army that can be run with a lot of them would be better, then a normal infantry based one.
Would invalidate a lot of marine lists too.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: And this would mean that vehicles and monsters suddenly become very hard to kill. So any army that can be run with a lot of them would be better, then a normal infantry based one.
Would invalidate a lot of marine lists too.
Conversely it also makes bringing anti-horde weapons more expensive, which helps infantry blobs. Whether it would be enough to offset the new buffs that explosives get vs hordes remain to be seen.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Where are you guys seeing this? Didn't see it on Warhammer community
Stream.
I just hope that this doesn't completely ruin horde armies. Those should be a viable option too, not one or the other.
I hope it completely ruins horde armies. No offense, but they're awful to play against. Nothing like spending 45 minutes watchjng someone shuffle Orkz around.
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Martel732 wrote: Can't say I'm happy with how they play right now.
I feel like your track record has proven that you only really need the first 4 words in that sentence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 19:55:50
I hope it completely ruins horde armies. No offense, but they're awful to play against. Nothing like spending 45 minutes watchjng someone shuffle Orkz around.
Actually SM armies require much more time to play with than ork hordes... sick of spending 45 minutes watching someone re-rolling the 450000 shots they fire every turn
Sasori wrote: I'm not super happy about this set of rules so far, mostly concerning the numbers and amount of shots. D3 blast weapons getting 3 shots all the time against 6+ models is not great. The max blast weapons for only 11+ is going to be brutal. They're going to need to not raise (Or actively decrease)the price of Horde units otherwise they are going to be pointless.
The terrain rules are going to have to just be bonkers otherwise.
Except horde units are getting price hikes as well. Cultist got 50% rise. With them 6 pts no way ork boy will stay same so will go to 8 minimum. 9 possible. Even 8 is relatively same up % as intercessors while rules help the marine and hurts boy. Grots could very well go 4 pts model as well. IG infantry? 5.
When company and playtesters want horde units go away they aren't being subtle about it.
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Tyel wrote: All can be fixed by points perhaps - but I felt the stream was made a bit weird by the fact they kept going on about "you can now really mangle that horde of gaunts with battle cannons and volcano cannons and the humble frag grenade".
Newsflash to GW - no one is going to be running gaunts unless they get some amazing new rules. Those big blobs of Ork Boys also simply won't be on the table after the first month if they are there just to be obliterated.
And ork boyz. They kept using boyz as punching bag. Dreadnoughts cutting through hordes of boyz shooting and smashing them apart. Basilisk blowing huge holes to hordes of boyz.
As I said. GW isn't being subtle at all. Horde units are relegated as cannon fodder to marines if somebody is silly enough to bring them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 20:17:19
I agree, it doesn't make sense to go from a Wyvern doing 14 shots on average against 10 models to a flat 24 shots against 11 models. On the flipside, it doesn't make sense either for a 4D3 weapon to do the same thing against 5 models as against 50.
Idea of blast weapons is good as such. GW just went too overboard with their crusade against horde models. Minimum(maybe scalable based on unit size) rather than just flat outs. 11+ unit and dice rolls less than 3 counts as 3. Much more reasonable and removes those complete whiffs.
While I might wait until more rules and points values are released, buying a forgefiend and making it into a cerberite actually might make sense now as it would give me a serious anti-infantry platform (I'm guessing that ecotplasma cannons will have the blast ability) and not just something that I want to get because it looks cool.
I hope it completely ruins horde armies. No offense, but they're awful to play against. Nothing like spending 45 minutes watchjng someone shuffle Orkz around.
Actually SM armies require much more time to play with than ork hordes... sick of spending 45 minutes watching someone re-rolling the 450000 shots they fire every turn
Yep. Slowest games I have are against marines and eldar. Particularly dark eldars takes ages.
Orks are fast army to play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 20:28:23
I hope it completely ruins horde armies. No offense, but they're awful to play against. Nothing like spending 45 minutes watchjng someone shuffle Orkz around.
Actually SM armies require much more time to play with than ork hordes... sick of spending 45 minutes watching someone re-rolling the 450000 shots they fire every turn
Orks are as guilty rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
I'd assume blast weapons are more expensive now that they don't suck as much. I don't think it should be immediately decried as a bad thing that frag grenades are actually worth something.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Where are you guys seeing this? Didn't see it on Warhammer community
Stream.
I just hope that this doesn't completely ruin horde armies. Those should be a viable option too, not one or the other.
I hope it completely ruins horde armies. No offense, but they're awful to play against. Nothing like spending 45 minutes watchjng someone shuffle Orkz around.
By far my slowest experiences in the current edition have been with armies chocked to the gills with special rules, character shennanigans, and gobs of rerolls, not hordes. The only game this edition I've genuinely been tempted to quit mid game due to how long everything was taking and just give my opponent the win on during a Tournament was a "Raven Guard" (that week) list built mostly around MSU primaris units with less than 40 models.
Martel732 wrote: All single shot high quality weapons are basically garbage now.
I'd like to hear your reasoning for this one.
While I don't agree entirely, there is a case to be made that they're substantially less useful than they should be, as they're much more vulnerable to whiffing single rolls and abilities like invuls on many prime targets substantially reduce their viability in favor of more generalist weapons, or even small arms when sufficient rerolls and AP bonuses are present. A squad of intercessors sporting S4 AP-2 and getting hit and wound rerolls will do more to a typical tank than than a quad bank of BS3+ lascannons will. GW appears to substantially overvalue such weapons (see the Vanquisher vs Battlecannon too )
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Martel732 wrote: All single shot high quality weapons are basically garbage now.
I'd like to hear your reasoning for this one.
Would you really? I'll let someone else field this.
I'll take that bullet for you Martel.
What he is saying is that since blast weapons are so awesome, it's better to take them. Being guaranteed a certain number of shots is huge, especially if each shot does multiple damage. That's the theory, and it does hold water. Of course, we don't know relative points values between single shot high damage and blast weapons. We've hypothesized the later will go up, but we know nothing about what's happening with the former.
Without knowing points, it's true, blast is so much better, that many will stop taking non-blast.
Most of us, I think, are assuming that points will go some distance toward fixing the issue. Martel, in my experience, is a bit too jaded to hope for that.
Their is another issue that's common in the language of competitive players- the idea that only the best is not garbage. Are their 3 elite options in your book? One is OP and obviously the other two are garbage. Got two different options for troops? Well that means one's good and the other is garbage. It's the reduction of a spectrum of performance to a binary.
Martel is not alone in this perceptual/ linguistic over simplification. When it is used, it tends to make legitimate concerns sound far more unreasonable than they actually are. Often, I think these guys just feel bad about something they used to like, and respond in the moment, and passionate language takes over.
Anyway, if the cost for single shot high damage stays the same or goes down, and blasts go up significantly, well in that case, the former still has a place at the table. If not, I'd say the concern is legit, even if the language is a bit over the top.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 21:18:09
Orks are as guilty rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
We are probably the army that have lesser re-rolling 1s tools. I can only think of badrukk giving that aura to flash gitz and flash gitz alone and a couple of clans/subcultures that allow those re-rolls. Orks are probably the only army in the entire 40k universe that doesn't have a single unit/character that provides universal re-rolls by some aura. Even their "shooting twice" stratagems have harsh limitations: once is locked into a specific clan (one of the worst), the other one only works on walkers and big meks and requires an additional CP just to give those units the keyword that grants them the possibility to burn another 2 CPs in order to fire twice.
I've played SoB, orks, SW and drukhari in 8th and orks were definitely the ones with lesser re-rolls available.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 21:16:43
I am glad someone started a discussion thread on this, as I hate putting long opinions on the news tread.
This is the first of the new 9th rules I really don't like. I don't think the 6+ getting a min of 3 shots is all that bad. I think 11+ for that rule and 21+ for the max hits would have been better but the 6+ for the 3 shots is not what is bothering me. Nor is it weapons like grenades, battle canon or other D6 shot weapons getting 6 max hits without rolling. For me what the problem is going to be is all of the multiple dice shot weapons, like Knight battle cannons, IG artillery etc. And the problem is the wording states at 11+ you get max shots. There is a big difference between D6 max shots and 4D6 max shots, or even just 2D6 max shots.
Personally I think the rule would have been much much better if it was min 3 shots at 6+ min 6 shots at 11+ and maybe add a min 9 shots (if they have it) at 21+.
Right now we don't know what will be blast (maybe knight battle cannons won't be, but I doubt it) but the max shot issue for big titanic weapons are just going to make those units even more of an issue to balance. Now maybe blast weapons got way more expensive, or they are balancing those type of weapons another way, but right now this is the first rule of 9th I am hoping to get a FAQ to change 6 months from the release.
A marine with a meltagun averages 1.5 W at melta range vs t8. 1 solitary wound if t8 has a 5++. The math is not much better for other single shot weapons. Then look at what gw charges foe this privilege.
Theyre garbage, even for casual play because its so counter intiitive
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 21:38:18
xeen wrote: I am glad someone started a discussion thread on this, as I hate putting long opinions on the news tread.
This is the first of the new 9th rules I really don't like. I don't think the 6+ getting a min of 3 shots is all that bad. I think 11+ for that rule and 21+ for the max hits would have been better but the 6+ for the 3 shots is not what is bothering me. Nor is it weapons like grenades, battle canon or other D6 shot weapons getting 6 max hits without rolling. For me what the problem is going to be is all of the multiple dice shot weapons, like Knight battle cannons, IG artillery etc. And the problem is the wording states at 11+ you get max shots. There is a big difference between D6 max shots and 4D6 max shots, or even just 2D6 max shots.
Personally I think the rule would have been much much better if it was min 3 shots at 6+ min 6 shots at 11+ and maybe add a min 9 shots (if they have it) at 21+.
Right now we don't know what will be blast (maybe knight battle cannons won't be, but I doubt it) but the max shot issue for big titanic weapons are just going to make those units even more of an issue to balance. Now maybe blast weapons got way more expensive, or they are balancing those type of weapons another way, but right now this is the first rule of 9th I am hoping to get a FAQ to change 6 months from the release.
You realise a Knight Battle Cannon is 102 points and currently sucks hence why they are generally never take and it's gattling or thermal cannons only.
It avarages less shots than a 22 point Battle cannon on a Leman Russ FFS.
Also fun fact a Leman Russ gains more from this rule as minimums at 6 shots for 6-10 models and 12 at 11+
The Rapid fire battlecannon minimus at 3 against 6-10 on 2d6 and 12 at the 11+ it gains nothing against 90% of the field.
Not up on my statically maths right now but a Leman russ avarages 8+ shots into 6-10 model units.
Russes have to be getting a massive points increase surely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 21:54:11
xeen wrote: I am glad someone started a discussion thread on this, as I hate putting long opinions on the news tread.
This is the first of the new 9th rules I really don't like. I don't think the 6+ getting a min of 3 shots is all that bad. I think 11+ for that rule and 21+ for the max hits would have been better but the 6+ for the 3 shots is not what is bothering me. Nor is it weapons like grenades, battle canon or other D6 shot weapons getting 6 max hits without rolling. For me what the problem is going to be is all of the multiple dice shot weapons, like Knight battle cannons, IG artillery etc. And the problem is the wording states at 11+ you get max shots. There is a big difference between D6 max shots and 4D6 max shots, or even just 2D6 max shots.
Personally I think the rule would have been much much better if it was min 3 shots at 6+ min 6 shots at 11+ and maybe add a min 9 shots (if they have it) at 21+.
Right now we don't know what will be blast (maybe knight battle cannons won't be, but I doubt it) but the max shot issue for big titanic weapons are just going to make those units even more of an issue to balance. Now maybe blast weapons got way more expensive, or they are balancing those type of weapons another way, but right now this is the first rule of 9th I am hoping to get a FAQ to change 6 months from the release.
You realise a Knight Battle Cannon is 102 points and currently sucks hence why they are generally never take and it's gattling or thermal cannons only.
It avarages less shots than a 22 point Battle cannon on a Leman Russ FFS.
Also fun fact a Leman Russ gains more from this rule as minimums at 6 shots for 6-10 models and 12 at 11+
The Rapid fire battlecannon minimus at 3 against 6-10 on 2d6 and 12 at the 11+ it gains nothing against 90% of the field.
Not up on my statically maths right now but a Leman russ avarages 8+ shots into 6-10 model units.
Russes have to be getting a massive points increase surely.
Yea I just picked the Knight battle cannon as it is one of the few weapons off the top of my head that is multi D6 shots. I mean I don't know if they will be good or not without points, but getting max hits is still really good. And I am sure others out there could pin point other multi D6 shot weapons that will be getting a heaping load of shots against 11+.
I forgot the Russ tanks got to shoot twice. Yea they are going to eat anything 11+ alive. It looks like most of guard are going to cut though hoards like a hot knife though butter.
Regardless, my point was this is really the first 9th rule I don't like, maybe I am over blowing it, maybe not only time will tell.
BaconCatBug wrote: Please, read the rule. "A minimum of 3 attacks" is not the same as "Each dice is a minimum of 3". If you roll 3D3, you get a number between 3 and 9. So the "minimum of 3" doesn't actually benefit a 3D3 blast weapon.
Likewise, a 2D6 blast weapon can roll between 2 and 12. If you roll a 2, it becomes 3. If you roll a 3, it stays as a 3.
xeen wrote: I am glad someone started a discussion thread on this, as I hate putting long opinions on the news tread.
This is the first of the new 9th rules I really don't like. I don't think the 6+ getting a min of 3 shots is all that bad. I think 11+ for that rule and 21+ for the max hits would have been better but the 6+ for the 3 shots is not what is bothering me. Nor is it weapons like grenades, battle canon or other D6 shot weapons getting 6 max hits without rolling. For me what the problem is going to be is all of the multiple dice shot weapons, like Knight battle cannons, IG artillery etc. And the problem is the wording states at 11+ you get max shots. There is a big difference between D6 max shots and 4D6 max shots, or even just 2D6 max shots.
Personally I think the rule would have been much much better if it was min 3 shots at 6+ min 6 shots at 11+ and maybe add a min 9 shots (if they have it) at 21+.
Right now we don't know what will be blast (maybe knight battle cannons won't be, but I doubt it) but the max shot issue for big titanic weapons are just going to make those units even more of an issue to balance. Now maybe blast weapons got way more expensive, or they are balancing those type of weapons another way, but right now this is the first rule of 9th I am hoping to get a FAQ to change 6 months from the release.
You realise a Knight Battle Cannon is 102 points and currently sucks hence why they are generally never take and it's gattling or thermal cannons only.
It avarages less shots than a 22 point Battle cannon on a Leman Russ FFS.
Also fun fact a Leman Russ gains more from this rule as minimums at 6 shots for 6-10 models and 12 at 11+
The Rapid fire battlecannon minimus at 3 against 6-10 on 2d6 and 12 at the 11+ it gains nothing against 90% of the field.
Not up on my statically maths right now but a Leman russ avarages 8+ shots into 6-10 model units.
Russes have to be getting a massive points increase surely.
Yea I just picked the Knight battle cannon as it is one of the few weapons off the top of my head that is multi D6 shots. I mean I don't know if they will be good or not without points, but getting max hits is still really good. And I am sure others out there could pin point other multi D6 shot weapons that will be getting a heaping load of shots against 11+.
I forgot the Russ tanks got to shoot twice. Yea they are going to eat anything 11+ alive. It looks like most of guard are going to cut though hoards like a hot knife though butter.
Regardless, my point was this is really the first 9th rule I don't like, maybe I am over blowing it, maybe not only time will tell.
RFBC are probably one of the weapons that could be given the rule and probably still need a points reduction.
You want to make sure no-one ever takes more than 10 models in a units take a Wyvern 24 shots on 11+ model units with in built reroll wounds, NLOS required.
Manticore 2d6 S10 -2 d3 120 inch range and NLOS for only 30 points more than a RFBC.
BaconCatBug wrote: Please, read the rule. "A minimum of 3 attacks" is not the same as "Each dice is a minimum of 3". If you roll 3D3, you get a number between 3 and 9. So the "minimum of 3" doesn't actually benefit a 3D3 blast weapon.
Likewise, a 2D6 blast weapon can roll between 2 and 12. If you roll a 2, it becomes 3. If you roll a 3, it stays as a 3.
Well that's completely braindead.
Who the hell wrote this rule?
Guessing a Guard player?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 22:45:23
BaconCatBug wrote: Please, read the rule. "A minimum of 3 attacks" is not the same as "Each dice is a minimum of 3". If you roll 3D3, you get a number between 3 and 9. So the "minimum of 3" doesn't actually benefit a 3D3 blast weapon.
Likewise, a 2D6 blast weapon can roll between 2 and 12. If you roll a 2, it becomes 3. If you roll a 3, it stays as a 3.
Well that's completely braindead.
Who the hell wrote this rule?
Real talk? They probably forgot that some "blast" weapons could have multiple dice. Or they wrote the blast rule only to buff D6 weapons.
The funniest thing is that a Leman Russ with Battle Cannon against a 10 model unit gets a minimum of 6 shots (3 for the first shot, 3 for the second assuming 6+ models are left) while a Macharius Battle Cannon (which is basically two battlecannons and fires 2D6 shots) only gets a minimum of 3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/10 22:46:59
