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Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

 grouchoben wrote:
Sounds like a test of skill/slashing impact cult to me - raiders and blast pistols would benefit a lot, and 5-wych squads are pretty much toast if they leave the boat.


That would make perfect sense. Problem is, it's looking like pretty much all of my battles for the next few months will be against my friend's Harlequins. I'm not looking to list tailor (much), but I'd be reluctant to take Test of Skill when none of his boats have more than 6 wounds.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/16 12:53:54


VAIROSEAN LIVES! 
   
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Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Ahhh I see. And on the plus side, wyches are pretty damn good against troupes!
   
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Had my first test game yesterday with Dark Eldar vs all-primaris ultramarines, using all the new points and new eternal war ITC missions.

Spoiler:


Me:

Patrol
Prophets of Flesh
HQ: Haemonculus 65, EC Whip 5, Stinger Pistol 5
Troops: x5 Wracks 60, Hexrifle 5 Ossefactor 5
Elites: x5 Grots 200, 5x Flesh Gauntlets 25
Heavy: Cronos 70
Elites: Mandrakes x7

Black Heart Kabal
HQ: Archon 60, Huskblade 5, Writ of the Living Muse
Troops: Kabalites x5 with Blaster 55
Troops: Kabalites x10 with Blaster+Dark Lance 110
Transport: Raider 70 with Dark Lance 15
Transport: Venom 60 with Splinter Cannon 10
Fast: x5 Scourges 75 with 4x Haywire 40
Heavy: Ravager 85 with Dark Lances 45

Custom cult: Test of Skill+Slashing Impact
HQ: Succubus 55 with Shardnet+Impaler 10 and Helm of Spite relic (S Drugs)
Troop: X10 Wyches 110 with Shardnet 10 Blast Pistol 5 and 2x Hydra Gauntlets 10 (Move Drugs)
Transport: Raider 70 with Disintegrator 25 Grisly Trophies+Chainsnares 4
Fast: X12 Reavers 344 with 4x Blasters 40 and 4x grav talons 12 (T Drugs)
Fast: X15 Hellions 225 with Agonizer 5 (A Drugs)
Flyer: Voidraven 185 with missiles 0


Opponent:
HQ: Primaris Captain in Gravis
HQ: Primaris Librarian with force sword
HQ: Primaris Lieutenant with storm shield and power sword
Troops: Intercessor squad x5
Troops: Intercessor squad x5
Troops: Infiltrator squad x5
Troops: Infiltrator squad x5

Elites: Aggressors x4 with bolts
Elites: Redemptor Dreadnought with miniguns
Elites: Invictus Warsuit with flamer and bolter

Fast: Inceptor squad x3 with plasma
Fast: Suppressors x3
Fast: land speeder with dakka

Heavy: Repulsor Executioner with the big plasma gun
Heavy: Thunderfire Cannon

Ultramarines tactics, with some special relics and psychic powers I don't exactly remember.

We played the eternal war mission "Retrieval Mission" which gave us one backfield objective to defend and 4 in no man's land, with pairs close to one another on either side. My opponent took the mission specific secondary (bonus points for keeping a larger % of your units alive) and also took Thin the Ranks and Domination. For my secondaries I took Engage on All Fronts, Slay the Warlord, and Repair Teleport Homer.

Our board setup was the minimum size, with several big ruins, and quite a bit of wall terrain - both the smaller ruined sector mechanicus style walls which were our main source of "dense cover" and small pipes and aegis lines which we did as Light and Heavy+Defensible as well as Breachable. No Man's land had 3 ruins in it, providing pretty solid Obscuring coverage, and each deployment zone had a nice ruin in it as well. I got to choose DZ, and chose the one with the ruin much closer to the deployment line as it would allow me to deploy my Reavers and Hellions out of LOS. My opponent set up his army with the infiltrators and warsuit on my left flank pair of objectives, and the big ball o' space marineage on his home objective, not really making use of the ruin in his backfield.

I deployed the reavers and hellions behind the ruin, wracks and kabalites on my home objective, the raider full of wyches ready to hop and get to the infiltrators if I were to get first turn, and the venom with 5 kabs right up on the line as a sacrifice to the invictus suit if my opponent were to get first turn. Grotesques, Cronos, Haemie on the line ready to move in towards the unoccupied objectives.

I win the roll to go first. Hellions move on to the closest objective to me, getting into cover and nicely positioned relative to Dense cover. Grotesques advance up with the haemie party, ready to fire and fade onto the other empty objective. Wyches and Succubus roll up ready to hit the infiltrators. I position my Raider, Voidraven, Blasters, lances etc so most of them can see both the Executioner and Warsuit, with some of them having Dense Cover in the way of one of the two shots. Priority 1 warsuit, priority 2 executioner. I also void mine the farther squad of infiltrators, killing 2.

I put the reavers, the kabalites, and the hekatrix' darkfire weapons into the warsuit and it goes down, and 4 dark lances and 2 void lances go into the executioner bringing it down to 3 wounds I really felt the lack of Test of Skill on my raider and ravager. Splinter fire, disintegrator, and voidraven missiles wipe the farther Infiltrator squad, leaving just one squad uninjured. Raider charges the infiltrators first, he rolls high so I swing him far around to sit his butt on the objective farther from me. Wyches and Succubus both successfully make the charge against them. Slashing impact hits them for 4, and I go first with the succubus and manage to take out 2 more with her net, so the wyches only have a sergeant to kill and consolidate nicely into a defense line right next to the objective.

End of turn 1 I hold 5/6 objectives, 3 points for Engage on All Fronts, my opponent has a lot to deal with. With 5 grotesques and 15 Hellions on one side and 10 wyches 1 succubus and a raider on the other, my opponent correctly assesses that the latter pair of objectives is a smarter play. He does a stratagem to make the repulsor fight like it's not injured, and another one to put the aggressors into tactical mode so they can move and double shoot. he's already spent some making the captain and librarian into special boys, so I have about twice the Cp he's got at this point since I've literally only spent one on fire and fade and I got a bonus one from soothsayer. Speaking of which I get one from Labyrinthine off his spending so I'm at 14. He moves intercessors, dreadnought, land speeder, HQs (keeping the captain just within 6" of the executioner) and aggressors towards the objectives.

He casts a psychic power that gives him a CP and that's it.

In his shooting phase, the executioner blasts the raider so effectively that it's gone, and my opponent cannot charge it with his aggressors to get on the objective. I'm made of paper like a fox! The TFC kills about half the wyches, and the aggressors first round of shooting way more than wipes the other half. Their second round of shooting goes into the hellions, who have both kinds of good cover from them (+1sv and -1 to hit) so I decide to do the extra +1sv in cover stratagem to try and keep them ticking. Surprisingly it works pretty not bad, I lose 5/15, and then another one from the landspeeder. The dreadnought tries to kill the succubus but she's an american hero and makes most of her invulns, and she's actually behind a ruin so the intercessors mostly can't shoot her, so they try to shoot Reavers who are in rapid fire and it doesn't go great, I lose 2 more reavers. Suppressors try unsuccessfully to shoot the plane. In my morale phase I spend 2 to not roll with the reavers as they're just at half strength, and the hellions roll a 1.

My turn 2, I get 15 primary points for holding my 4 objectives to my opponent's 2 - turns out I didn't even need the succubus to survive, she was just awesome. Theme for this turn is "gotta get those aggressors." I get the haemonculus crew comfy on their objectives, with the cronos and haemie sitting on the close one, and the grots sitting on the far one - I just leave the haemie's aura with them because there are few weapons it matters against for them to be t6. Mandrakes drop down way in the far corner of my opponent's board, just behind a ruin, and go "hey, it cool if we fix this teleport homer back here?"

The voidraven just styles on the repulsor executioner, so all the other dark lances and blasters just go into first the land speeder who is actually on the objective then the aggressors, who are 2+sv right now thanks to cover so my splinter stuff isn't gonna do gak. After some pretty poor rolling, they go down to just massive anti-tank fire. Hellions charge intercessors, and I give up a lot of my Slashing Impact rolls to avoid a heroic intervention from the characters so I only deal 1mw. I give the hellions hyperstimm - they're not gonna survive to the end of the battle round so let's go out with a bang. They deal 4 unsaved wounds and leave one dude, and I consolidate into the lieutenant and librarian in order to wrap him, and they kill half my remaining poor hellions.

So at the end of the turn, I have mandrakes in the backfield doing a secondary and getting me full table quarters again for 3 more, I have 4 objectives held fairly annoyingly (one with a succubus behind Obscuring terrain and next to Reaver bikes, one with grotesques, one with all my kabalite stuff, and one with a cronos and haemonculus). I do realize I forgot to bring my haywire scourges in like a dumbass - I mean, tactically reserved them because I didn't think they could kill the dreadnought alone, of course.

My opponent scores 3 points for primary, bringing him up to 6 total with 3 points so far from Thin their Ranks. He figures the librarian, sergeant and lieutenant can handle the last 5 hellions so he goes around those with the captain, intercessors and dreadnought to finally get onto a second objective. He brings on the incursors into his own backfield to try and shoot the Mandrakes, but even with blast two survive, and only one runs from morale, so I will score 5 for repair homer simpson. He uses most of his firepower to wipe the reavers, then the TFC sadly takes out my heroic succubus from downtown. Suppressors manage to deal 2w to the flyer finally, earning a joking "good effort participation badge" from my opponent. In the assault phase, my opponent grumbles a bit that me getting to go first with the hellions is kind of a "gotcha" so I let him go first with the librarian, who kills 3/5 of the remaining hellions. I kill the last intercessor with them to keep him from having a second obsec unit, and then they die to the lieutenant.

Turn 3, I get 15 from primary, 5 from my mandrake fixing beloved cartoon icon homer simpson, and I'm already basically set to score another 3 from engage on all fronts, don't even need to move anything. I have my single mandrake do the action again just to force my opponent to kill him. My venom full of kabalites dutifully moves up to take its turn being the sacrificial lamb on the Bloodbath Objective, and I drop scourges right in the middle of most of my kabalite stuff to kill the dreadnought, even though leaving the TFC brings me great pain. The dreadnought dies to the void lances and the scourges, and I have the cunning idea to kill 3 intercessors so I can target the captain. It takes an embarrassing number of my darkfire weapons to get through those 3 dudes - stupid 2+ armor saves vs splinter weaponry. So the captain lives, taking only one dark lance wound from the ravager that only deals 2 damage with a CP reroll. I'd have needed a 6 to wipe him out so wasn't expecting it. 100% Man Mandrake scores me another 3 points for table quarters.

My opponent finally scores 10 for primaries, and his kill point tally is up to 5 putting his point total at 20 to my 44. Thin their Ranks seems like a very low effort secondary for most armies, but he's really regretting Domination. He's got the Inceptors, TFC, Suppressors, and the three HQs left, so he decides he's not going to win the mission, he just wants to kill as much as he can, so the inceptors leave John Mandraclane to win the game single handedly in the backfield. The Inceptors kill the venom, which explodes but nobody cares, and the HQs stupid pistols and fingerguns and rifles kill 3/5 of the kabalites. The TFC and suppressors take most of the wounds off the Ravager.

My turn 4, 15 from primary, 5 from teleport homer, the birds are out of stuff in LOS to haywire so they just pony up to the Death Objective along with the raider full of kabalites. All my stupid crazy anti tank weapons shoot at the space marine HQs and I kill the captain (6 points) and librarian but the lieutenant isn't dead thanks to a storm shield he's got. The inceptors did get within 6" but they were still the closest models to all my stuff.

Space marines score 10 again, the inceptors blow up the ravager, the tfc and lieutenant kill the scourges, and the suppressors and lieutenant in melee deal 4 wounds to the raider.

Turn 5, I max out the table quarters objective and the teleport homer objective and get another 15 from primary, fall back from the lieutenant and leave him alive to duel with my archon. The plane and ossefactor kill a couple of inceptors.

Opponent's turn 5, he scores 10 from primary, the suppressors, inceptor and TFC kill the raider for 1 more kill point, and he gets a total of 41pts. We have a laugh about how he doesn't get 10pts for paint because his miniatures aren't based but mine have some that weren't done with GW paints so 0pts for both sides there. The archon and lieutenant dont manage to kill one another. Final score is 41 to 96, dark eldar win.


TlDR: It went good. I was able to max out Engage on All Fronts and Repair Teleport Homer, but the latter was mostly because my opponent gave up on playing to the mission after turn 3 and didn't devote one of his three remaining combat units to wiping one stupid mandrake who was doing that objective behind a building in his backfield.

Impressions: Turn 1 felt pretty impactful, but more impactful was being able to have the movement to actually get the feth on objectives turn 1 and the durability to stay there. Mostly, my going first just resulted in his invictor and infiltrators being dead skeletons instead of getting to rampage into my stuff for free, and my wyches and succubus getting to move on to their objectives via charge moves. If my opponent hadn't had a bunch of stuff starting in no man's land, I don't feel like winning the turn 1 roll would have been of paramount significance.

I felt like the game was a good amount less lethal than before, mostly on the back of terrain rules (it felt like almost everything was in cover all the time and there was a LOT of -1 to hit) and a good chunk of my army at least (not so much my opponents') doing absolutely nothing the whole game but sitting on objectives twiddling their spiritleech tentacles. I made the choice to score points rahter than kill more stuff 3-4 times during the game, which is a big improvement.

Weapon range just..didn't matter. Basically everything was in range all the time. They could basically remove it as a stat at this board size. Only LOS block terrain prevented stuff from shooting.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

That's really interesting, thanks.

Did any of your unit choices really stand out, for better or worse?


I'm looking to get 6 Grots into my list (mainly cos I spent all this time building and converting them), but I'm determined to find points for Rakarth to buff their strength to 6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 14:01:53


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 harlokin wrote:
That's really interesting, thanks.

Did any of your unit choices really stand out, for better or worse?


I'm looking to get 6 Grots into my list (mainly cos I spent all this time building and converting them), but I'm determined to find points for Rakarth to buff their strength to 6.


I have to say, I think Hellions are kinda...not terrible now? two things I think really helped them out, first is obscuring terrain, god was it nice to feel like they werent' just instantly targetable, and Obscuring being an infinite pillar was great for these tall bois, and second was morale. The big problem with hellions was really wanting them to be Red Grief or Test of Skill, but feeling absolutely stupid for doing anything but Cursed Blade on them because they're ld7 and really benefit from being a big unit. INFANTRY keyword, Fly, and a rule that still lets them fall back and do what they really want to do (their shooting is kinda just secondary) makes them actually kind of good.

The ideal "high impact" unit in 9th ed IMO is a unit that can jump out of hiding, get itself on an objective, kill what's on it, and survive or make the task of killing it obnoxious. Hellions can get 3+ saves with the lurk in the shadows strat, they can always be -1 either from dense cover or Lightning reactions, and they have enough punch to usually kill what they want to get in on.

I still felt like Reavers were a little too expensive for what they do and care a little too much about their shooting to be proper bludgeon units. Maybe that was just me running them with Blasters and I need to not do that in future, I don't know.

The mandrakes...holy gak. The combination of a cheap unit that has built-in deep strike, Obscuring terrain, and the fact that you can have both Table Quarters objective AND the action that forces your opponent to go get the unit that's doing it is SO STRONG. Nobody should leave home without at least 2 5-mans of mandrakes IMO, because so many opponents are going to build into the "big brick you can't kill that's gonna go roll into the center of the board and be tough". 9th is a game of step 1, spoil your opponent's objectives, step 2, make sure it's as annoying/inefficient as possible to spoil your objectives. 5-man mandrakes show up, they score you 1-2 points immediately by grabbing a table quarter, and then they go "oOOOoooHHh, I'm fixing the teleporter, are you going to turn around your units and kill little old me with my invulnerable save, or am I going to score 5 points next turn?"

Take 2 units so you can pull that gak turn 2 and turn 3 when every opponent is going to be trying to execute their 'spend all the CPs score all the points kill all the things' battle plan and REALLY REALLY doesn't want to divert resources to kill 5 stupid little fethers in their back corners.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 15:24:55


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

Thats's fantastic.

Mandrakes have been good for ages.....we REALLY need a new sculpt in plastic. I have a second box of them, but I'm not sure I can face trying to assemble and paint them, finecast is so horrible to work with.....metal ones go for about £25 per model on ebay

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/16 15:31:33


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 harlokin wrote:
Thats's fantastic.

Mandrakes have been good for ages.....we REALLY need a new sculpt in plastic. I have a second box of them, but I'm not sure I can face trying to assemble and paint them, finecast is so horrible to work with.....metal ones go for about £25 per model on ebay


I actually use Idoneth Reavers for my mandrakes. The bow+knife guys.

I do have a custom ebay search notification for "40k elder" which has successfully snagged me more than a few 5th ed metal models from folks who didn't really know what they had or just misspelled it and so got way lower traffic.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Roaring Reaver Rider






That's great to hear that you're enjoying Hellions, they're one of my top units that I want to love but just could never make them work. It sounds like they themselves didn't get any better but the game around them has become a friendlier place for them to exist. I'm looking forward to trying them out in my next games.

Mandrakes have always been one of my top tactical units of 8th. They tick the boxes of being able to appear where you need them, shooting mostly so not reliant on not failing charges, ability to dish out MW, and reasonably tanky for their points thanks to invuln and -1 to hit. I don't think there was ever a game of 8th that I regretted fielding them and I don't think that will change in 9th.

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 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
That's great to hear that you're enjoying Hellions, they're one of my top units that I want to love but just could never make them work. It sounds like they themselves didn't get any better but the game around them has become a friendlier place for them to exist. I'm looking forward to trying them out in my next games.

Mandrakes have always been one of my top tactical units of 8th. They tick the boxes of being able to appear where you need them, shooting mostly so not reliant on not failing charges, ability to dish out MW, and reasonably tanky for their points thanks to invuln and -1 to hit. I don't think there was ever a game of 8th that I regretted fielding them and I don't think that will change in 9th.


I think the big key with them is "if you can make them significantly less convenient to target by giving up their shooting, do so". Their shooting is solid, yes, but in 9th you absolutely NEED to have designated scorers in your list, if you run a list that is just killers vs killers and designated scorers, IMO the second list is going to win most of the time unless they have not made their scorers tough enough.

Tough for their points INFANTRY keyword units that can hold objectives and perform actions are going to be key to include. I liked Axe Wraithblades going into this game, and I REALLY like them now, for example. I also think that's the big thing grots have over talos, but I also think Drukhari are better suited going for the Teleport Homer rather than going for the Hold the Center action secondary.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I took 20 Hellions and mine did dog crap lol, vs 3+ army and no AP they couldn't do anything about the save roles, 19 wounds and 15 saves (yes 2 above average but thats within normal still). I had to fight twice to wipe the unit even with Str5 +1atks.

   
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
I took 20 Hellions and mine did dog crap lol, vs 3+ army and no AP they couldn't do anything about the save roles, 19 wounds and 15 saves (yes 2 above average but thats within normal still). I had to fight twice to wipe the unit even with Str5 +1atks.


I think with their actual attacks mine only killed like 2 models. Slashing did a lot of the work.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.

I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.

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 harlokin wrote:
At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.

I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.


I can't help you, he literally did nothing all game for me except move once in my movement phase, and then he just scored primary points all game long.

so, from a winning the game standpoint: Highly Effective!

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.

I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.


I can't help you, he literally did nothing all game for me except move once in my movement phase, and then he just scored primary points all game long.

so, from a winning the game standpoint: Highly Effective!



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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






I sometimes literally forget the cronos is an optional unit for us

He's such a piece of crap next to the talos.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






I sometimes literally forget the cronos is an optional unit for us

He's such a piece of crap next to the talos.


Indeed, it seems to lack any meaningful roll in the army. It should be a buff/fire support but we don't really have many static units that it could support.

Perhaps they should change it to an anti psyker type unit. At least it would have a roll.

That being said, I always wish they would release a Kabalite heavy support unit and Kabalite close combat unit. Just for the sake of symmetry. The Cronos would be able to support them...maybe.

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AoS is pure garbage
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40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






It used to give out extra Pain Tokens. Spirit Probe gave a Pain token to itself for ANY model killed with it (not just a full unit, so if it killed a full unit it got 2 Pain Tokens), then the Spirit Probe kills in melee you can then gain a Pain token and give it to any DE unit within 12".

PFP chart was only 3 back then
1) FnP (which was a 5+++ not a 6+++)
2) Furious Charge (+1 to Int and Str)
3) Fearless (Ignore Battleshock tests)

But you did not start with any Pain Tokens, so having a unit that can get it themselves and giving them out was good. Note: All Coven units started with 1 Pain Token, and characters "joined" units, so they could give Pain tokens to units, a Haemonculus joining a Grot unit started the game with 2 Pain tokens, characters could also join MC units. Urien used to started with 1 himself and started with D3 tokens to give to any D3 Coven units.

So he did have a purpose, they mad his Pain tokens rules ito Re-roll wounds wound basically.

The old PFP was MUCH stronger, but harder to get.

   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I mean, I use him in the same way you use like a lieutenant. Just a wound roll buffer. And if my opponent targets him hes pretty durable.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

Do Cronos have any interesting interactions with Dark Technomacers, and the new blast rules?

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Roaring Reaver Rider






I liked Cronos with technomancers in 8th, if you could get them in range of both their weapons then they had some potential. To my knowledge the new blast rules will only effect their non-autohit weapon correct?

Overall do we thing the Cronos has a better place in 9th? At firs glance it can only fire one of its weapons in CC and can't fire the other even if it falls back like it did in 8th. I didn't see how many points it went up, does it have a place in 9th lists? I really want to use mine.

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Mounted Kroot Tracker







With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/19 14:05:52


   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

 Oaka wrote:
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.


I've heard peeps mentioning them of late, and it would be interesting to hear how they get on for you.

For me, the 10 points more that Grots cost seems worth it for a 4++, the Infantry keyword, WS 3+ (2+ with PFP), Mortal Wound potential, and Power From Pain.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/19 17:18:06


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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.

They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.

I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.

I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.

Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.

EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/19 18:14:07


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Oaka wrote:
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.


You need a BM, so its not cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.

They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.

I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.

I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.

Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.

EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.


I just wish Beasts went back to 5th, BM being 12pts, super cheap and are int he unit of Beasts. Beasts were way too costly in 8th and they just went up in 9th, as they are now in 9th they are pointless.
A Lone BM is fine, with 12" move and Fly, a character and a Infantry, you can get a lot of secondary points with it for cheap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/19 18:17:31


   
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Oaka wrote:
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.


You need a BM, so its not cheaper.


Depends how your using the units though. A 45 point 12" move model with fly and character protection is also pretty good for using to get secondaries.

Sure you need one for the beastpack options, but that doesn't make it worthless in of itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Oaka wrote:
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.


You need a BM, so its not cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.

They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.

I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.

I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.

Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.

EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.


I just wish Beasts went back to 5th, BM being 12pts, super cheap and are int he unit of Beasts. Beasts were way too costly in 8th and they just went up in 9th, as they are now in 9th they are pointless.
A Lone BM is fine, with 12" move and Fly, a character and a Infantry, you can get a lot of secondary points with it for cheap.


Sure no argument there in regard to what they once were but that is irrelevant at present, but if you agree that a BM is useful on it's own you can't really be using it as a strike against the other options from the pack can you. Again, a 14pt flock or a 35 point fiend open up even more doors for secondaries. Unless you like sacrificing nearly 100 point transports plus possible occupants to secondaries like table quarters or teleport homer repair.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/19 18:21:37


   
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 Red Corsair wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Oaka wrote:
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.

They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.


You need a BM, so its not cheaper.


Depends how your using the units though. A 45 point 12" move model with fly and character protection is also pretty good for using to get secondaries.

Sure you need one for the beastpack options, but that doesn't make it worthless in of itself.


If you are wanting a BM to go run off solo and the Clawed fiend to do the same, that is fine. I'm saying its not cheaper than Grots tho b.c you still need a BM for each solo Clawed fiend. Also taking 3 characters on top of the 3 HQ's we are taking means people will go for Assassination secondary, which give them VP's very easily, its not like a BM is hard to kill.

   
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






You only need a single BM to fulfill the requirement for up to 3 beastpacks per detachment.

So it's 1 BM for up to 3 solo fiends or RWF.

EDIT

Also you'll note that I said it was wrong to even compare them to grots. Apples and oranges IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/19 19:05:38


   
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Fixture of Dakka






 Red Corsair wrote:
You only need a single BM to fulfill the requirement for up to 3 beastpacks per detachment.

So it's 1 BM for up to 3 solo fiends or RWF.

EDIT

Also you'll note that I said it was wrong to even compare them to grots. Apples and oranges IMO.


I mean for points, its not 10pts more with 1 BM a BM is 45pts so he is basically that 10pts for each one.

To add, Court also can be taken over Beasts if you wanted single model units that are infantry and not characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/19 19:34:22


   
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Amishprn86 wrote:
If you are wanting a BM to go run off solo and the Clawed fiend to do the same, that is fine. I'm saying its not cheaper than Grots tho b.c you still need a BM for each solo Clawed fiend. Also taking 3 characters on top of the 3 HQ's we are taking means people will go for Assassination secondary, which give them VP's very easily, its not like a BM is hard to kill.


No actually you clearly stated incorrectly that a BM was required for each pack.

Your also implying again that the BM has no value which is outright false.

A clawed fiend is 35 ppm. Period.

It's a bogus trick to argue the BM inflates the beasts base cost. That's not how it works because I still get the BM. Unless you also want to claim a grot is +26.7 points per model in a min 3 squad do to the Haemi. It's not a fair argument.

   
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Fixture of Dakka






Well you cannot take them without a BM, if you wanted the BM then its not a tax as i said, if you don't want the BM then it is a tax and the Beasts are a higher cost to take.

You can pretend there isn't a 45pt tax, but there is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/19 20:55:07


   
 
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