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a_typical_hero wrote:
How many Primaris fit into a Rhino?

What is your point?

Primaris don't. Abaddon is somehow both the size of a normal Terminator but also the size of a Primarch. Can Primarchs ride in Land Raiders?

Here is a Pewter guardsman next to a marine. I did not think the other comparision was complete as all the regular humans were post cadian/catachan plastics.

Of note is that gw scale is super inconsistent and loads of pewter dudes were bigger. An example would be colonel shaeffer, a head higher than most other guardsmen

My point is: Do you think Primaris not being able to ride in an old transport has anything to do with their actual height?

The rules don't perfectly reflect what could happen in a "reality 40k".

I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.

I would feel awkward having a unit composed of both old and new models; I probably could have gotten my head around keeping my old stuff in one detachment and my new stuff in another, but I've recently decided to just update the whole army.

I certainly don't think it is done entirely to squat old models; I agree with what many have said already- if larger, they can be not only more detailed, but easier to assemble and paint. Differences in scale do exist, but as long as you don't mix units, they can still be used side by side. If you're a real stickler, you can keep them in separate detachments.

Funny story: I have an old metal Keeper of Secrets- not even the most recent metal. She is tiny compared to the modern, awesome, towering Keeper. I'd never get away with using her as a Keeper in a game against a stranger. I actually always recommend that I use her as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, because that's closer in size.

But I want to play a 25PL Crusade game, and the best match-up I can make right now includes that Keeper vs. my painted old sisters. It's a friendly game with my spouse, so it's not an issue.

a_typical_hero wrote:
My point is: Do you think Primaris not being able to ride in an old transport has anything to do with their actual height?

The rules don't perfectly reflect what could happen in a "reality 40k".

The rules don't "perfectly reflect", but they generally "somewhat reflect". There's a balance between rules and presentation, generally, and if you stray too much from conventions things can break down. Terminators can't ride in Rhinos, Primaris look closer to Terminator size, maybe Primaris really can't squeeze in those Rhinos. Abaddon doesn't look like he could even make it through the assault ramp of the Land Raider. Not that models are necessarily scaled 1:1 with each other, but stray too far the suspension of disbelief comes apart.

Seriously, I'd rather build an Abaddon stand-in from a normal Chaos Terminator that take that ridiculous model. I'd get four free Terminators out of it, too.

PenitentJake wrote:
I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.

I would feel awkward having a unit composed of both old and new models; I probably could have gotten my head around keeping my old stuff in one detachment and my new stuff in another, but I've recently decided to just update the whole army.

I certainly don't think it is done entirely to squat old models; I agree with what many have said already- if larger, they can be not only more detailed, but easier to assemble and paint. Differences in scale do exist, but as long as you don't mix units, they can still be used side by side. If you're a real stickler, you can keep them in separate detachments.

Funny story: I have an old metal Keeper of Secrets- not even the most recent metal. She is tiny compared to the modern, awesome, towering Keeper. I'd never get away with using her as a Keeper in a game against a stranger. I actually always recommend that I use her as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, because that's closer in size.

But I want to play a 25PL Crusade game, and the best match-up I can make right now includes that Keeper vs. my painted old sisters. It's a friendly game with my spouse, so it's not an issue.

I have no such qualms concerning model scale. Especially concerning Chaos. GW made it, it's good to go.

Like you, I've got an ages old greater demon. In my case it's a Bloodthirster from when I started in the RT/WHFB 3e days. On the base he was supplied with.
"Dinky" has killed hundreds of thousands of pts in the name of the Blood God over the decades. Hell, he's killed models that most players have never even seen except as blurry pics on a Google search. He will NEVER be demoted to mere "prince".
If my opponent has a problem playing against "Dinky"? Then I will accept their surrender.

 Crimson wrote:
This thread is useless without pics.

Yep not seeing it. Immortal is taller. Not to mention bulkier. Height is very similar but not bigger than immortal


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PenitentJake wrote:
I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.

Oh they are. About head. Hands etc about same size so old works on new and vice versa but def taller.

Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.

Dysartes wrote:So you're saying that FW made the model of Horus far too large as well? Interesting that both studios would accidentally release a 3-up instead of the correctly-sized model...

No, I'm saying he's the correct height, they both are.

Insectum7 wrote:How many spaces does he take up in a Land Raider?

40k's transport rule have been borked since they got rid of a lot of unit keywords and modifiers.

 Insectum7 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
How many Primaris fit into a Rhino?

What is your point?

Primaris don't. Abaddon is somehow both the size of a normal Terminator but also the size of a Primarch. Can Primarchs ride in Land Raiders?

In the 30k rules Primarchs are "Bulky" rather than "Very Bulky", which means they take up the space of a Terminator in a transport rather than that of a Bike and can, in fact, ride in Land Raiders.

Alpharius is the only one that can ride in a Rhino, though, and even then he can't stay in the Rhino after he's revealed his presence.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.

It's been slow but present. Look at a 4e-vintage plastic Tactical Marine next to a Deathwatch Marine sometime.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
How many Primaris fit into a Rhino?

What is your point?

Primaris don't. Abaddon is somehow both the size of a normal Terminator but also the size of a Primarch. Can Primarchs ride in Land Raiders?

In the 30k rules Primarchs are "Bulky" rather than "Very Bulky", which means they take up the space of a Terminator in a transport rather than that of a Bike and can, in fact, ride in Land Raiders.

Well Abaddon sure looks more the size of a bike than a Terminator, just sayin.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.

It's been slow but present. Look at a 4e-vintage plastic Tactical Marine next to a Deathwatch Marine sometime.

The Deathwatch models are the standouts. The 3rd ed plastics through the 7th Ed plastics are basically identical, the only difference is that a couple of the later sets of legs are in more upright poses. I think at least one set of legs is exactly the same from 3rd through the current kit.

Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.

Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?

Tell me about it.

My 2nd ed metal space marines are positively diminutive next to the current lot of unobtanium-clad boofheads.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

Gitdakka wrote:
Here is a Pewter guardsman next to a marine. I did not think the other comparision was complete as all the regular humans were post cadian/catachan plastics.

Of note is that gw scale is super inconsistent and loads of pewter dudes were bigger. An example would be colonel shaeffer, a head higher than most other guardsmen

Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.

Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?

I understand that the US is a mix of different races and people, but in countries where this is not the case people have general the same size and an respective age. Now this can mean that if you are danish or a masay you end up real tall, but comparing extrems hardly suit us here. Plus there are no healthy 7 or 8 feet tall humans, and even less whole populations of them. The pump all humans have has its limitations, after a certain size it doesn't matter how much muscle you have, it just isn't able to work properly. That is also why all people doing sports have to be careful, because you can just die from over working your heart when you are having a growth spurt.

the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.

Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?

But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.

That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?

"No the scale hasn't crept, we just changed it!"

Kayback wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.

Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?

But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.

That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?

"No the scale hasn't crept, we just changed it!"

That really depends on where you live. Where I grew up, I was seen as very short and am 180 cm tall, many of my male classmates easily were 2 m. So, yes, it can easily happen. People do vary quite a lot. Which is why I honestly don't care very much for scale in my (albeit mostly historical) armies. In fact, I like it when there is a bit of variety.

Kayback wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.

Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?

But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.

That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?

"No the scale hasn't crept, we just changed it!"

I mean sure, they've changed the scale of a human...since what, 3rd edition 20 odd years ago? A cadian is about the same size as a genestealer cultist (I've got them both in my army) and both of those are the same size as a skitarii, and those are about the same size as the new sisters.

The new sisters look super huge next to the old sisters because the old sisters are fething ANCIENT.

People talk about scale creep like it's some recent 8th edition thing. It's a massive moving of the goalposts if you define "scale creep" as "One scale increase that GW decided on 20 years ago and has slowly filtered through various armies as they gave them newer sculpts."

Showing the same couple of models who all seem purely coincidentally to be standing on rocks and wearing goddamn pope hats and screaming 'MUH SCALE CREEP IT BE CREEPIN' is not sufficient evidence.

Nor is lying, like it has been repeatedly proven the op just did when making this thread. There's a picture of a necron warrior next to an old warrior, and a picture of a new warrior next to an immortal, they are EXACTLY the same fething size.

Karol wrote:
I understand that the US is a mix of different races and people, but in countries where this is not the case people have general the same size and an respective age.

Yeah but regiments and chapters usually recruit from all over a planet, not from a single country, so it's fine.


How many of those would we accept in a miniature game? But people aren't all the same size in real life.


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 chromedog wrote:
Tell me about it.

My 2nd ed metal space marines are positively diminutive next to the current lot of unobtanium-clad boofheads.

ARTEMIS INQUISITOR .

I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).

However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.

I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.

 vipoid wrote:
I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).

However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.

I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.

But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.

I mean, all complaints of biological realism go straight out the goddamn window when it comes to talking about the shonen anime that is the primarchs.

I just imagine the emperor in his secret biotech laboratory going

"Hmmm, and this one I shall craft as a werewolf. And this one as a giant hot topic guy. And this one as a big red man who can change size like fething voltron. And this one with angel wings, why not?"

Just fething throwing gene soup together in a vat like the opening of the power puff girls.

Genes! Spice! HEAVY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF! This is what little primarchs are made of!

And so The Emperor, having finished building the first 19 Primarch kits realises that he doesn't have enough full-size bits....and decides to make two littleuns instead.

the_scotsman wrote:
Genes! Spice! HEAVY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF! This is what little primarchs are made of!

This got a genuine LOL out of me and now my coworkers are looking at me funny.

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).

However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.

I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.

But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.

I stand corrected then.

As I said, I hadn't read the fluff so I was just going off what seemed plausible for a race of super-soldiers.

Does each SM have differently sized power armour, or is it one-size-fits-all?

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).

However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.

I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.

But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.

That's true. Buuut, the differences in size between models are often distinctly different between units and releases. Like every Marine who is sent to the Deathwatch happens to be 6" taller than your average marine, likewise for every Terminator.

Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.

If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.

I'm sure there is some slight variation I mean that's hardly a problem when its within individual units. Buts that not the problem the problem is every single new unit with a new sculpt is far larger bulkier and taller with usually a bigger base than whatever came before it. If people truly are using absolutely minuscule 1e minis as primaris i pity them and there opponents. It's an insult to the eyes.

On a fluff point, do you think size variance is a big problem when using power armour? I mean power armour is relatively rare and expensive right? Can you imagine spending years training as a neophyte, surviving the biological enhanchments and then during the final ritual the techmarine says "yeahh sorry we dont have your shoe size just yet. We ordered some new from mars but shipping is somewhat unreliable with the warpstorms and all....."

Or do they tailor forge each armour piece at the chapter houses or what? This must be excedingly annoying for terminator armour wich is basicly some rare ancient relics.

When a black templar gets his visions and then recieves the holiest of chapter relic armour prebattle and it's too small for this particular marine, what happens then?

Racerguy180 wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
A Commissar with nine feet? MUTANT! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!

But seriously, don’t sweat the scale creep. I use RT minis and they still work just fine :-)

Same here, I'm looking at my original beakies right now.

Do people not realize that even tho the minis are 28mm scale, it does not mean that are in the same scale in relation to each other. Its Gw, scale is more of a suggestion more than anything. Hell take a look at a tactical marine, then convince me that 12 of them fit inside a rhino.

Hell, try squeezing 40 Guardsmen into a Stormlord...

Kayback wrote:
Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.

If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.

There was definitely one that was abnormally big - Haegr The Mountain, one of the Wolfblade that Ragnar served with on Terra.