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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





A lot of experts all view Custodes as one of the top 5 factions likely to shine among the over 20 factions in 9th Ed. Honestly, I am not sure what is the concern here. You have an army that is high toughness with mostly 4++ invul or even 3++ invul saves. I don't think even primaris gets that, unless they are characters.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?


So according to you nobody takes twin multimeltas in the game...seeing those are alone 50 pts and nobody has as cost effective carrier either. And is worse weapon as well.

So if 60ppm eradicator is junk nobody takes what kind of super hyper mega trash twin multi melta is then? In fact if 40 pts is good then how little twin multi melta needs to cost? 15 pts?

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





tneva82 wrote:
Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?


So according to you nobody takes twin multimeltas in the game...seeing those are alone 50 pts and nobody has as cost effective carrier either. And is worse weapon as well.

So if 60ppm eradicator is junk nobody takes what kind of super hyper mega trash twin multi melta is then? In fact if 40 pts is good then how little twin multi melta needs to cost? 15 pts?


not really, most people tended to avoid melta's in 8th, only army that ued them much was sisters who don't exactly have much choice.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fi
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Yet I see them. But what's the price you would take twin melta's then? Seeing how good platform eradicator has it has to be fairly substantially lower than 40 seeing that's eradicator price(so can't be same price or higher) and is top of that worse than eradicator. And eradicator carrier is pretty damn effective.

15? 20? 30 would be way too expensive.

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
Yet I see them. But what's the price you would take twin melta's then? Seeing how good platform eradicator has it has to be fairly substantially lower than 40 seeing that's eradicator price(so can't be same price or higher) and is top of that worse than eradicator. And eradicator carrier is pretty damn effective.

15? 20? 30 would be way too expensive.


right now Multi melta's are 20/25 points (depending on if it's on infantry or something else) this gives a 24 inch range, S 8 AP -4 D6 re-roll damage within 12 inches or less weapon.

By comparison

A Lacanon is AP -3, S9 Range 48 D6 damage. for 15/20 points (15 on infantry 20 on anything else)

they're over priced. only army I know that takes Multi-Melta's competivly tend to be SOBs, and thats more because they don't have anything else for anti-tank

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:35:08


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Have Ultramarines, Knights and Tau.

Given up on the marines as they are too damn cheese it's no fun rofl stomping everyone even with a stupid list.

When people would rather play against a competitive Tau list or a Pure Knights list than a 30k/40k Marine list you know Marines is brokenness personified

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:54:29


 
   
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I just wish primaris models had stopped at 2 wounds, now many of them have 3. How many other armies have that and can fulfill as many battle roles as the SM or as well as the SM. Not to talk about as cheaply as SM.

The way GW buffs SM one would think they are afraid they are gonna lose their biggest income unless they make them superior. Maybe we should all just stop buying other factions so we end up with only SM vs SM fights, that'll be SO FUN!

Also again the lore, Aren't the Custodes supposed to be able to easily dispatch a Space Marine or two? In a 1 vs 1 melee Bladeguard/Custodian Guard i think the Custodes has it, but say if there were 2 Bladeguard I think the Custodes will lose.

Just increase the points costs of these undercosted units and I'd be way more fine with it playwise though, Though I suspect the next SM Codex and supplements will buff them even more rather than make their units more expensive.
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.
¨

And what if you compare to other armies stuff? You know comparing new marine unit to units from broken codex doesn't really tell much about is it OP unit or not...


People say Marine and Scout bikes are OP?

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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.


Ah so you're just saying that Bladeguard are more points efficient wound-wise. All right, now that I understand your point better I think I can agree.

But like, who cares? Two Custodian guard also has far superior shooting to three Bladeguard.

Firing at 18" range, the max range of Bladeguard pistols, two Custodian guard on average will usually get one wound on a Primaris and proceed to kill one.

Bladeguard have a 50% chance to do a whopping 1 damage to them.

In 12" or less, rapid fire range, it's not even close and their chance of success doubles to a near certainty.

At 24" range, maximum Custodian range, the Bladeguard can't shoot at all.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.


One single S4 AP-1 D2 attack at 12" range = FAR SUPERIOR.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

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Annandale, VA

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.


Totally agreed with all of this. I took OP's point to be not that Custodes are weak, as they got great benefits out of both a general lack of points hikes and mechanics that favor MSU and melee. It's more an indictment of Bladeguard as symbolic of Marine undercosting- they're better than Custodes in certain respects and near their level in others, all coming in at just 2/3 the cost- and the worst part is that by Marine standards, they're not all that amazing.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Is there anything behind this idea that Custodes are going to be a top faction beyond the fact they got a below average points decrease?

As I see it you have edition more focused on objectives and an army which still isn't especially good at claiming or holding them. Bikes aside its a relatively slow, relatively weak shooting army that you can just pick apart on your terms.

But maybe there is stuff among the broken combinations of forgeworld and PA.
   
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Different army. Different role. Only remotely valid comparison is the outriders vs jetbikes.

This thread is really, really silly.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
Is there anything behind this idea that Custodes are going to be a top faction beyond the fact they got a below average points decrease?

As I see it you have edition more focused on objectives and an army which still isn't especially good at claiming or holding them. Bikes aside its a relatively slow, relatively weak shooting army that you can just pick apart on your terms.

But maybe there is stuff among the broken combinations of forgeworld and PA.


They have some legs in that they don't have aura's and every model has obsec so they can do some list building shenanigans and style that other armies can't.
They also benifit alot in CP from the detachment changes so they can finally throw around strategums like candy.
However they also took a hard hit with marine 2.0 last year being one of their worst matchups do to AP spam.

I dont think most people are calling them OP, I think it's mostly been most improved army, which isnt the same.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Arguments about non troops costing to many points to sit on objectives when you give them a transport is straight up arguing in bad faith.

Though frankly that those are the lengths people are going to to defend marine's as not over powered/undercosted shows just how rediculous the are compaired to other factions.

Even adding 10 points to each model (45ppm) they don't compair unfairly to xeno options, same with outriders. Eradicators are just so broken they need 20 points and likely more added to balance against xeno options.


No, I'm literally asking you what is the line where you would stop using this clearly overpowered combination of 6 BG in an Impulsor.

Because there is a line. And acknowledging that line helps to demonstrate how little room for variance there is for units like this.

BG are about worthless walking across the table, but cheap enough at present if you wanted to. And while they could maybe use a small point hit that change is such a small percentage of a list it is almost inconsequential.

And, no, it isn't a simple thing to compare units across codexes. Different units have different outcomes in context of their army.

Size limits also affect outcomes. Spawn are limited to 5. If they were limited to 10 you'd see them more often. If they were limited to 20 they'd be broken. This a concept clearly demonstrated in the Rule of Three. What happens if we gave 20 Spawn to Marines? They wouldn't be as broken, because Marines don't have the tools to make it worthwhile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 13:23:12


   
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Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And while they could maybe use a small point hit that change is such a small percentage of a list it is almost inconsequential.


Sure. Now repeat this across the other units in the Marine codex that punch above their weight, and then it quickly starts to matter. A 5pt increase on Bladeguard is a 14% increase, about on par with the 8th->9th transition- I don't think anyone argues that that was inconsequential.

An increase of as little as 5pts would put Bladeguard about on par with Custodes- better in the first round of combat, but inferior shooting and reduced performance in subsequent rounds. Add 10pts to Eradicators, and now the Indomitus contents are up 45pts just from those alone, about 5%.

5% matters- having to shave ~50pts off a 1K list, or ~100pts off a 2K list, doesn't feel inconsequential to me.

I feel like pointing at a single unit that is part of a broader problem and going 'well, nerfing just this one unit a bit won't make that big a difference' is rather missing the forest for the trees.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 14:09:52


 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 14:23:38


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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I personally rather doubt many of the units will keep their current point cost from Indomitus.

Yes, the cumulative effect over the army can have an effect, but let's play out this 100 point increase on this list. What gets cut? The Bladeguard. Intercessors and Scouts are necessary. HQs are bare minimum. Eradicators are required. Outriders provide the only flex. Aggressors are more useful.

Could you reconstruct the list? Yea, I'm sure, but the immediate consequence is no BG.

   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.

It isn't like the Fire Pike was THAT good to begin with even in previous editions so...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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This whole Blade Guard vs Custodes comparison doesn’t even take into account the fact that Blade Guard could even have a 5++ fnp from IH+chief, or advancing and charging as White Scars and doing flat 3 dmg each with ap -4 on turns 3, 4 and 5.
   
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LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.

The custodes don't get any more benefits. Their 5++ is improved to 4++ by the chapter tactic like ability called the Emperor’s Chosen.

How the 9th edtion of warhammer fantasy should/could have been: Warhammer CE http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373349-Warhammer-CE-the-definitive-rule-set-for-WFB-veterans 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.
   
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 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.


Advancing and charging, or 6++ fnp, are not super doctrines. Yet nobody accounted for any of that in this thread when comparing mobility or durability. But of course the army synergies should also be taken into account. But I didn’t even talk about stratagems. Marines have the Custodes beat there also.
   
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.

It isn't like the Fire Pike was THAT good to begin with even in previous editions so...
Fun fact: It used to be a 24" range Meltagun that could be taken by a model who could fire it twice. Hmm. . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.


Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -

-no wait, hold on.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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