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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





IMO, this is pretty gross. The game doesn't need more wounds for basic infantry.

The multimelta change is also pretty gross, but mostly the Heavy 2: +2 Damage or something should always have been baked in.

But, now we're back in the awkward position of the secondary little gakky guns on a tank being more dangerous than the primary one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:27:22


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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You guys are getting heavily trolled.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

But, now we're back in the awkward position of the secondary little gakky guns on a tank being more dangerous than the primary one.
Well they do have to get a LOT closer.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?

Really strange decision


Basically the way 8th worked between index and codex releases. I maintain a working list to play the game because its fun to do so, but holding off on designing anything until the codex gives me a longer lasting set of rules to work with.


But it isn't like that at all. These changes are far more fundamental and wide-sweeping than anything you saw between index and codex in 8th. You didn't see the basic weapons and basic stats of models completely change from index to codex across the entire faction line.

It's more like if they had released 8th while still using 7th edition stats, then updated each faction's stats to 8th edition stats codex by codex. It's a truly bizarre decision.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:28:24


 
   
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Falls Church, VA

40k has jumped the shark in more ways than just 2W Tactical Marines. It's just emblematic of a much bigger problem.
   
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Irkjoe wrote:
Makes my army better so it's good, don't care about any other effect.
What a small-minded view.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I think somebody failed their sarcasm detection check.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think somebody failed their sarcasm detection check.


Personally, my sarcasm detector has been broken since some of the WARCOM 9th edition articles. It was honestly hard to tell if they were being humorous or serious or what. Like even now this 2 wound tactical marine article - the guy told to write it seems to be wavering between dramatic oversell and sheer biting sarcasm.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Cruentus wrote:
My predictions:

1) I'm going to assume that Primaris get an additional would, taking them to 3, thereby making them still superior to the old marines

They're not.
That’s right – it won’t just be Primaris Marines on 2 Wounds anymore! All of a sudden, a lot of units that may have felt a bit left behind become very durable and appealing. From Battle Company units such as Assault, Devastator and Tactical Marines, to the elite Terminators of the 1st Company (who will be increased to 3 Wounds accordingly), the first born will be back to prove to their Primaris battle-brothers their great worth.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

Anything Marine that isn't a Scout will start at 2W.

2) They're going to tweak all the weapon profiles (i.e. making them do more damage - be prepared to see more D2 weapons) - thereby making 2W troops die just as easily

Maybe, maybe not. More likely than not most Heavy Weapons will at least clock in with 2W minimum. Or at least something that allows for them to either do an additional Wound that can still be saved against or a Mortal Wound in addition to normal damage.


3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.

Maybe, maybe not.

They've cut out a big chunk of codices though. No DA, SW, BA, or Deathwatch standalone books going forward.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




yukishiro1 wrote:

It's more like if they had released 8th while still using 7th edition stats, then updated each faction's stats to 8th edition stats codex by codex. It's a truly bizarre decision.


Its actually bigger than that.
Its somewhat debatable, but I'd be willing to argue that this is a change and shakeup at least on par with the 2nd to 3rd transition, because while that fundamentally changed a lot of weapons (like the poor shuriken catapult and the assault cannon will forever miss its d10 damage die), the non-vehicle unit stats didn't change in a major way, at least not globally (there were actual faction specific updates, but they only affected their own army).

That its happening piecemeal after the edition launch is a major ball drop. Seriously the only thing that would shock me more is if Stormcasts wandered into Bloodbowl for its edition change.

Actually.... hrm. A lot of BB things are changing too, from what I understand.
Has there been a major personnel shakeup in the studio lately? Anyone know?

Because major paradigm shifts usually indicate something happened behind the scenes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:41:07


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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nekooni wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.


Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






I'm into it, although I do agree with this:
Voss wrote:

I do think they should have scrapped all the books and gone with a Ravening Hordes 'get-you-by' update if they wanted to do sweeping changes like this.
Messing with unit and weapon stats makes this feel like a bigger update than 7th to 8th. They've created a muddle of unnecessary uncertainty and are now sprinting to keep up, and have now created a situation where they have to speed churn the codexes for everybody out again, because no one is going to want to wait 2-4 years for their turn to have real weapons and unit upgrades.


Pretty much the only thing I didn't like about 8th, other than Primaris Marines, was legacy stats being carried straight over from 7th, rather than taking the opportunity to rejig them and make things work how they "should". Better late than never, I guess, and hopefully this bodes well for other factions getting similar adjustments (I'm looking at you, Eldar).
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?
Right? Like what are my Gaunts for? What's happening to Genestealers? Stealers better be getting 2D on their claws or something.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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You'll get 2D stealer claws 2 years from now, right before SM 3.0 gives minimarines 3 wounds and primaris 4 wounds. It's more fun when each faction gets Super Saiyaned one after the other, that way you can buy the models of each Super Saiyan faction in turn!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:47:26


 
   
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Falls Church, VA

Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




the_scotsman wrote:

what the hell is a kabalite for?


Dying for Ynnead.

Seriously, I don't want to be too doom and gloom about Dark and Craftworld eldar, I really don't. But 9th has stomped them hard, and this piecemeal reveal drama... Well.
WarCom wrote:Now that we’ve all had a bit of time to get our heads around the new core rules, the next big shake-ups will come with this edition’s codexes. There are some big – and we mean full-on seismic – changes on their way.

Yeah. 'Big and full-on seismic' would be a way of dealing with the fact that eldar just don't work the way GW has traditionally done them. Cue blob faction and new units to replace a lot of stuff that has languished for decades now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Right? Like what are my Gaunts for? What's happening to Genestealers? Stealers better be getting 2D on their claws or something.


d3 damage. Genestealers canonically tear terminator armor apart like paper.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:48:56


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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My old school Ultramarines army just became new school

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer

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Ultramarines [1000]
Chaos Knights [1800]
 
   
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It is honestly mind-boggling to me that GW didn't get out ahead of the obvious reaction people are going to have to them making "full-on seismic" changes codex by codex instead of all at once on launch. There should have been a statement on warhammer-community at least attempting to PR this in some way that makes sense, instead of what they posted, something that actually, if anything, plays up the fact that it's happening piecemeal and everyone else will have to wait for their Super Saiyan upgrades.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4?


What's the base cost for the W1 model?

What happens when a Heavy Bolter (now D2) hits both of those units?

   
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 Brother Castor wrote:
My old school Ultramarines army just became new school

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer


Oh that's a good point.

Does this mean we can simplify Space Marine Transport Tetris?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


If you've played 9 editions of 40k and don't just build every list as a skew to beat marines are you really playing 40k?

An anti-infantry weapon? Pffff, I don't need those, everyone plays power armor. Only reason I say "what is a kabalite for" is because I KNOW what a genestealer cult neophyte is for, he's for standing in front of a pair of SEISMIC CANNONS BABY and sitting in a box packed with autocannons.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fi
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Speaking of Rhinos, I really hope they lift the silly transport restrictions allowing the marines to work as a coherent whole.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


I find it absolutely hilarious like you're all pretending that Primaris didn't exist for 3 years. All of their models containing "better weapons".

   
Made in us
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Falls Church, VA

the_scotsman wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


If you've played 9 editions of 40k and don't just build every list as a skew to beat marines are you really playing 40k?

An anti-infantry weapon? Pffff, I don't need those, everyone plays power armor. Only reason I say "what is a kabalite for" is because I KNOW what a genestealer cult neophyte is for, he's for standing in front of a pair of SEISMIC CANNONS BABY and sitting in a box packed with autocannons.


I play the Horus Heresy and I don't even skew to beat marines. You never had to, marines were (kinda sorta not really) a balanced part of the game.

This? This you have to skew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


I find it absolutely hilarious like you're all pretending that Primaris didn't exist for 3 years. All of their models containing "better weapons".


Pretending? No, I didn't like Primaris either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 17:52:14


 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

the_scotsman wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.


Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?

Look, I won't argue that Kabalites are not WAY overpriced, because they clearly are. They need to be fixed, but 2W marines have absolutely nothing to do with that. Your kabalite warriors are bottom tier right now, and they will be when the SM Codex comes out.
The issue is that the Field Manual is a joke, and that's hitting many units across many factions.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4?


What's the base cost for the W1 model?

What happens when a Heavy Bolter (now D2) hits both of those units?
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.

   
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I for one think this is a healthy rock-paper-scissor change.

-2D weapons get a boost as it will have a greater pool of units it invalidates (2W models).
-2W models do better against 1D weapons (has double wound pool).
-1D weapons have higher rate of return on its points expenditure against 1W models (opportunity cost of 2D weapons are wasted).

So, 2-wound models are countered by 2 damage weapons, and it 'counters' 1D weapons; 1D weapons 'counter' (more efficiently) 1W models than 2D weapons and gets countered by 2W models; 2D weapons counter 2W models but gets 'countered' by hordes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/13 18:25:13


 
   
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Will primaris be able to ride in rhinos now? Likewise can sterngaurd ride in impulors? Clearly the size difference between models isn't that significant if they are all t4 3+ with 2 wounds....like...I've seriously never been so disappointed in GW - if this passed the checks you are better off not playing the game.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Falls Church, VA

Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).
   
 
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