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Made in nl
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

a_typical_hero wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Pretty sure you can't fit the daemon list. LoC is 270, KoS are 210 each on the cheap version, so 690 right there. 30 PB without banner or instrument is 270, so we're already over by 60 and you're still missing two nurgling units at 54 each MSU, so it's basically a 1168 pt list.

Also, I find your thinking weird: "Look bro, I don't feel like building weak lists with my marines, so if you want to stand a chance against me better get on that triple greater daemon plan and soon".


As I wrote, I'm going from memory. Might have been one KoS less but some kind of support character for the PBs.

You misunderstand me due to language barrier.

I don't mean "I didn't feel like adapting to the others, so deal with what I bring".

I mean "I don't feel that the BA list I made is weaker on purpose to account for non-Marines around me".


I see now. However, this is exactly the point of many people in here. With Space Marines you can almost just go blindfold and pick units out of the codex with a fork and you will still end up with a playable and potentially strong list. With most other armies you have to really struggle if you want to even bring something that is meant to compete, and then a 4-2 wound probably be the dream result anyways.

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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Bosskelot wrote:
My local community, which has a broad spectrum of players, saw a huge drop in activity because of the 2.0 Marine Codex.

People weren't wanting to play versus Marines and Marine players weren't able to get any games. They couldn't even play mirror match-ups because they were sick of playing Loyalists v Loyalists all the time. If you're a narrative-minded player there's only so many times you can justify a "training exercise" between Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.

Saying the issue is only applicable to the competitive scene is ridiculous. It arguably affects the casual/average game more, mainly because to even fight on an even footing with Astartes you NEED to bring a competitive list and even then when 80% of your normal games are against Marines it really kills your desire to play. Even now, with things opening up a little, people are searching for games with the caveat of wanting no Marines.


This here too. There was almost a 40% drop in attendance about 2 months after the drop of marines 2.0, and that continued on. Interestingly the pandemic gave us a chance to take a breather and regrow our club a bit, as we had people who were previously just online/hobby warhammer fans join in to the pandemic chats and a bunch of them turned into regular players.

Of course, predictably, a few of them are already showing signs of frustration at the continued imbalance. There's already someone quite confused as to how his eldar wraiths could be like this in the game, while Aggressors are very similar statwise but seem to have the firepower to delete a whole guardian squad off the board each...

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Bosskelot wrote:
My local community, which has a broad spectrum of players, saw a huge drop in activity because of the 2.0 Marine Codex.

People weren't wanting to play versus Marines and Marine players weren't able to get any games. They couldn't even play mirror match-ups because they were sick of playing Loyalists v Loyalists all the time. If you're a narrative-minded player there's only so many times you can justify a "training exercise" between Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.

Saying the issue is only applicable to the competitive scene is ridiculous. It arguably affects the casual/average game more, mainly because to even fight on an even footing with Astartes you NEED to bring a competitive list and even then when 80% of your normal games are against Marines it really kills your desire to play. Even now, with things opening up a little, people are searching for games with the caveat of wanting no Marines.

This hits the nail.
Imagine you attend a two-day tourney with your IH and then you face IH twice, RG, Sallies and IF.
I guess you will attend once and wait for a shift of the meta which may or may not come.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 12:19:18


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.

That was not demanded and you know it.

Reigning in the outleirs on SM2.0 behalf, strengthening rules support for other factions including much needed buffs for units that have in some cases not seen the board ernestly in decades and not just via pts. Because as much as SM2.0 is head and shoulder above in casual list building , that is probably just as much an issue with SM and with the lack of an ernest update to the other factions. (by the by gw could also release all dexes at once instead of this nonsense , considering we heard very promising things from playtesters which however all were playing allready with full dexes...and were in some cases really disapointed with the hold over rules we got...)

Switching up release cycles including space were marines are not with everything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 12:37:57


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.


I think marines have had too much attention lately. Most factions got a single model, if even that, in the time that Marines got the entire primaris line. The weaker codices released in the beginning of 8th are starting to show so major age while Marines are on their 3rd incarnation AND additional supplements, AND support from multiple PA books.

Everything released has had the ... "and this Primaris unit/dataslate!" caveat to it.

Marine players have had to shell out a fortune to keep their collections up to date, both rules and model wise.

Non-marine players are looking at finecast and metal bullcrap wondering when the pub is going to open up so they can treat their models to a drink after turning 21.

Codex creep and everything aside, it is really hard to not see how much the Marine side of the house has exploded over the past 3 years. Someone did a list of winners and losers, release wise, for 8th. It wasn't pretty.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Yeah, loyalists don't just need to be brought down in power, everyone else needs to be brought up. Loyalists can run a fluffy list right now and still be good, a lot of other factions need to rely on janky tactics and wombo combos to function. It isn't alright that some factions can only compete with loyalists by using one good set of tactics and units. We need our new codexes.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Not Online!!! wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.

That was not demanded and you know it.

Reigning in the outleirs on SM2.0 behalf, strengthening rules support for other factions including much needed buffs for units that have in some cases not seen the board ernestly in decades and not just via pts. Because as much as SM2.0 is head and shoulder above in casual list building , that is probably just as much an issue with SM and with the lack of an ernest update to the other factions. (by the by gw could also release all dexes at once instead of this nonsense , considering we heard very promising things from playtesters which however all were playing allready with full dexes...and were in some cases really disapointing with the hold over rules we got...)

Switching up release cycles including space were marines are not with everything else.


Definitely agree we should see all books out together, the release cycle should be less marine centric now there are 4 fewer codex in the pipeline, but box sets they trialed without marines in all tanked for various reasons, so I think it'll remain marines v w/e for any future boxsets.

Glad you identify that it's a mix of tripping the top off the marines and adding a little onto everyone else's bottom line that would be best though. Buffing other factions through the nose is no more or less helpful than nerfing marines back to the floor, so a mixed view is better.

It would be nice to see win rates at events narrow to within 10% and even better if it's different factions nabbing top 5's or 10's every time.
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Equality of faction strength is important, but models do play a significant part in the popularity too. I'm sure Eldar, Orks and Guard would be a lot more popular if half their units weren't older than some of the members here.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.


A large number of the people who stopped coming and who were experiencing the worst marine burnout are exclusively marine players. People who had marines+something else actually stuck around, they just started playing their alt army in order to stop having the marines vs marines mirror matches.

I understand this is just kind of a hyperbolic pearl-clutch, and I think we both get that, but I just figure it's relevant to point out that while the first wave of people leaving were people frustrated at getting stomped by marines, the second wave, a month or so later, was marine players who'd post up on the looking for game thread with

"have marines, want to face other marines"

We had one week where there were five people with some variation of that request, and none of them ended up showing that week. They all decided they'd rather sit it out than play marines against marines again.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Super Ready wrote:
Equality of faction strength is important, but models do play a significant part in the popularity too. I'm sure Eldar, Orks and Guard would be a lot more popular if half their units weren't older than some of the members here.


It's not just model updates, it's in some cases also a question of the pricing, as it stands it is significantly cheaper to start marines (any flavour including the one that cuts itself) then say, orks guard, GSC etc.
The worst exemple were R&H, which did at multiple pts in their iteration cost 60£ with the cadian sprue for legs, for 30-40 pts overall for what ammounted at the time to a 3rd of a troop choice... In an army centered around infantry.
Not to mention the nutjob prices on banshees or mek guns.....

Further, and that is an general issues with most dexes, one specific build / combination of units and traits and stratagems, does not make for a healthy dex.

When 75% of your FA are never picked and 25% only with a specific build to backup , then you have an army that in essence has no tool in consideration for that slot.
When we still have factions that lack efficient AA / airsupport then we have a problem.

etc.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

Blood of the Phoenix tanked because it had a few new models, and a whole lot of really old, uncompetitive stuff that nobody wanted.

If it had consisted of new scupts for Scorpions, Banshees, Karandras and Jain Zar vs new sculpts for Incubi, Trueborn, Drazhar, and an Archon on a jetbike, it wouldn't have any problems selling.

Would indomitus have done as well as it did if it just contained a couple of new models, and a whole load of old Space Marine bikes?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/27 13:04:06


VAIROSEAN LIVES! 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?



I don't know as I can't speak for others but I have been very happy with 8th edition SW codex, IMHO it's exactly how a SM codex should be in terms of performances. And I mean just the codex stuff, eventually with SotB new stuff but no doctrines.

I made a mistake in judgement until tneva82's post as I assumed that SW obj sec rule was referred only to infantry models. Well, it's definitely overpowered as it is, but it's also a clear mistake that will be fixed. Like bomb squigs that fire multiple times as they can't die while embarked since abilities don't work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 12:49:21


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Dudeface wrote:

Definitely agree we should see all books out together, the release cycle should be less marine centric now there are 4 fewer codex in the pipeline, but box sets they trialed without marines in all tanked for various reasons, so I think it'll remain marines v w/e for any future boxsets.

Glad you identify that it's a mix of tripping the top off the marines and adding a little onto everyone else's bottom line that would be best though. Buffing other factions through the nose is no more or less helpful than nerfing marines back to the floor, so a mixed view is better.

It would be nice to see win rates at events narrow to within 10% and even better if it's different factions nabbing top 5's or 10's every time.


the first one wont happen because gw do gw things and thinks in quartals, by spreading out sales constantly (also a reason for the constant additional rules releases) they can guarantee to consistently monetise, equating to shareholder happiness.

The second one, let's be very clear, it is either A: Bring SM down to the level of the other factions again, massively deescalating. or B: escalating all the other dexes to a similar style of power and behaviour and access.
I don't know what is smarter, both versions have massive disadvantages for the players and the company. It's just that B is easier to monetise that ties in with my first point.
2.5 GW has also designed alot of factions into a corner, take CSM, without specific combinations alot of the killer units are actually really overpriced. The same holds true for other design choices for factions, like GSC, which just didn't work out due to the parameters of the basegame or the picture of the meta as a whole which denies entry to whole archetypes.
( i count the smaler tables to a degree into this aswell, as a parameter that negatively affected transports not to mention the no disembarkation unless you are a primaris transport, after movement...)

As for the 3rd, by virtue of the spread rules and constant add ons, the system could indeed be this balanced but due to the fact that all the rules are never in play at once, we would not even see it.,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 12:54:02


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in nl
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.


Personally for me: Change most of the army wide buffs to either Stratagems or character buffs targetting single units. Remove Chapter master alltogether.

Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?

As a second step, don't give marines stuff that is hands down strictly better than the things other armies get for no reason at all.

If I create a Tyranid custom fleet, I get worse traits to choose from than Marines do, I also lose all access to the main Hive Fleet bonuses AND I lose the fleet specific psychic power and stratagems. So why can Marines choose custom traits, keep the main faction bonuses, the strats and the powers AND have said traits be strictly better than what the Tyranids get?

Don't give centurions super thunderhammers with flat 4 damage and no penalty to hit and then give them outlandish shooting output on top of that. Obliterators have equivalent body and kind of same role in the field. Do you know what their melee weapon does? str +1, ap-1, d3 damage. Not str x2 ap-3 4 damage with no penalty and no points cost attached to it.

When I need to cast a 7+ WC power to give one unit +1 to hit, power that can be failed to cast, denied, auto dispelled on a 4+ and even devoured and that can make my character explode, don't give it for free on a Marine character to just bless a unit with flat BS 2+ (much better than +1 to hit) for completely free.

When I need to purchase a 110 pt daemon character that is T3 and has 4 wounds total to give my SINGLE GOD army a 6+++ save, don't give Marines a 110 pt character with T5 and 7 wounds that gives around 5+++ instead.

When I need to cast a Tyranid psychic power to make one enemy unit fight last this turn, don't give it as a free ability to the new sword guy who doesn't even need to be in combat to apply it.

Don't make units that are good in every phase of the game. Why can centurions both shoot 72 shots AND attack with str 10 damage 4 weapons in melee AND have T5 and 2+ saves? Why can aggressors also do something similar? Why can intercessors shoot 36" ap-2 damage 2 weapons AND have their sergeant casually one shot daemon princes and Carnifexes in melee on top of that? Why can 6 RG centurions shoot and kill a fully buffed Magnus upon deep striking with 100% certainty AND also Magnus doesn't dare to charge them? Why does the repulsor have half an army's worth of weapons on it AND also have -2" to be charged? What is the weakness of the Space Marine units exactly?

I can keep this list going on forever. Pretty sure Marine players don't even know all of these abilities are hands down better for no extra cost than what other people get.

And I'm not even going to get into the 120+ marine model releases since the last time we got a new Tyranid model.

I don't want Marine Players to suffer. I want to play on an even field. I don't want to have to rely on above average dice every game just to have a chance to play past Turn 3. I also want the company to respect me as a customer. I pay the same money as you do, perhaps even more. So why do you get the whole pizza and I only get a half eaten crust?

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Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

Equality in model releases is not necessarily something that I expect. Marines will always be the big dog there and that's fine, whatever.

But equality in how new rules are developed and pushed is another issue entirely. It's not just that Marines are getting their 3rd Codex in as many years, it's that even before their second codex, they got beta rules to improve the army because GW acknowledged the game wasn't doing a very good job of representing them lorewise and that they were too "weak" on the table.

My question is, why is this only something Marines should get? Reanimation Protocols was a non-functioning ability for 3 years in 8th. Why should Necron players wait all that time for a brand new Codex to fix it with nothing else to compensate for that? Why couldn't there have been beta rules in WD or one of the FAQ's for new RP rules, or a version of the Command Protocols that the army is going to be getting just as a bandaid fix to tide people over for a while?


Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Personally I think I'd be pretty much fine with marines being the meta army to beat if they had their strength shifted more toward defense than offense. I've played a couple games with opponents where we blanket applied the +4pt price hike to just everything and tried out Firstborns in a traditional mechanized rhino list, and it was an extremely good, close game.

If we had essentially the current meta but the armies that were unstoppable were Eldar with like, Autarch builds that could fly across the board and one-shot knights, and howling banshees and shining spears that could sprint across the board top of turn 1 and engage your army, and striking scorpions with double the attacks that could pop up turn 1 with infiltrating wraithlords that would also charge your lines turn 1, and Tau, with a special rule that allowed Fire Warriors to rapid fire at 30" range if they sat still, and battlesuits that shot twice, and they changed the Ethereal to be a 6" reroll all hits aura, marine players would be absolutely apoplectic with rage. Pretty much exactly how they were in 7th with those two armies. The playstyles would be decried as absolutely antithetical to the spirit of 40k, unfair, unfun, either you decide the entire game on the first turn die roll or you have an army that participates in only one phase and just squats in their deployment zones while they gak all over your army.

I have seen durability metas where it felt like, super crazy overwhelming. Decurion where you'd play a game and remove like 1 model from your opponent's army. But I don't think that's where 2W firstborns are gonna be at personally. Stuff is still killable, but it actually moves in order to get things done. it holds objectives. it isn't just "either I sit wayyyyyyyyyyyy back here and shoot you exactly as effectively as if I were 2" away or I charge you immediately, turn 1, in your deployment zone"

The power boost that they gave marines with 2.0 was needed, it's just frustrating that the form they gave it to them in was cranking deadliness up through the roof, rather than making marines feel actually tough.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Bosskelot wrote:
Equality in model releases is not necessarily something that I expect. Marines will always be the big dog there and that's fine, whatever.

But equality in how new rules are developed and pushed is another issue entirely. It's not just that Marines are getting their 3rd Codex in as many years, it's that even before their second codex, they got beta rules to improve the army because GW acknowledged the game wasn't doing a very good job of representing them lorewise and that they were too "weak" on the table.

My question is, why is this only something Marines should get? Reanimation Protocols was a non-functioning ability for 3 years in 8th. Why should Necron players wait all that time for a brand new Codex to fix it with nothing else to compensate for that? Why couldn't there have been beta rules in WD or one of the FAQ's for new RP rules, or a version of the Command Protocols that the army is going to be getting just as a bandaid fix to tide people over for a while?



honest opinion, most SM players are probably just as pissed at beeing used as cashcows for rules releases as other factions are at the apparent neglect.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dudeface wrote:
Genuine question: what will it take to get people happy with marines?

What will it take, honestly, for people not to have marine burnout or be banning them from shops or people quitting over them?

Looking at the state of these boards as they are, nothing short of knocking them to bottom half of the tier list and not having a release for a decade will be enough.
Well for one marines could easily survive not getting a new model release for a decade at this point. But ofcourse this is a hyperbole, how about Marines don't get more releases then everyone else or 3 Xeno releases for every marine release (to catch up on the backlog).

As for Marine power level, its not that marines have to be put down, but they can't be at the top and certainly not by a wide margin like we have seen since Marine 2.0
Simply because the army is so popular. If Nids are the best army in the game (by a small margin, a big margin is always bad) then there will be a couple of nids at a tournament but your not going to see 30% of the field being Nids.
With Marines this does happen because who doesn't have a marine army lying around somewhere.

But again, its a matter of degrees. Marines have been head and shoulders above (almost) everyone for nigh a year now. And then came 9th and more marine buffs. Yes in a hypothetical world the new codex might balance marines again. But we don't know that and won't know that for probably another 2 months. And meanwhile pretty much every marine unit from Indomitus is broken. be it Eradicators being probably the best AT infantry the game has that every other army wishes they could field, Outriders being tough bikes with half a dozen attacks each, because reasons. Bladeguards being bonkers tough and killy melee infantry for cheap that any actual melee faction would die for (seriously, compare something like a GSC Aberrant to a Bladeguard Vet), the Judiciar who tells Melee armies to not bother showing up.
   
Made in us
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
Equality in model releases is not necessarily something that I expect. Marines will always be the big dog there and that's fine, whatever.

But equality in how new rules are developed and pushed is another issue entirely. It's not just that Marines are getting their 3rd Codex in as many years, it's that even before their second codex, they got beta rules to improve the army because GW acknowledged the game wasn't doing a very good job of representing them lorewise and that they were too "weak" on the table.

My question is, why is this only something Marines should get? Reanimation Protocols was a non-functioning ability for 3 years in 8th. Why should Necron players wait all that time for a brand new Codex to fix it with nothing else to compensate for that? Why couldn't there have been beta rules in WD or one of the FAQ's for new RP rules, or a version of the Command Protocols that the army is going to be getting just as a bandaid fix to tide people over for a while?



honest opinion, most SM players are probably just as pissed at beeing used as cashcows for rules releases as other factions are at the apparent neglect.


^this too. I've also had several marine players leave because GW's business model forces them into a planned obsolescence cycle that would make Steve Jobs blush.

Even now, many of the original models that GW put out with the primaris range are already obsoleted by Iphone 11 Marines. Remember Reivers, Repulsors, Redemptors and Hellblasters? Nooooo nonono, you need to buy Incursors/Infiltrators, Repulsor Executioners/New Predator Thingy, Invictors and Eradicators now! Must consume! can't stop after rebuying your army once just two years ago! MUST CONSUME!!! CODEX 3.0 1 YEAR AFTER YOU BOUGHT 2 CODEXES FOR THE RULES FOR YOUR ARMY!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 13:14:11


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





the_scotsman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
Equality in model releases is not necessarily something that I expect. Marines will always be the big dog there and that's fine, whatever.

But equality in how new rules are developed and pushed is another issue entirely. It's not just that Marines are getting their 3rd Codex in as many years, it's that even before their second codex, they got beta rules to improve the army because GW acknowledged the game wasn't doing a very good job of representing them lorewise and that they were too "weak" on the table.

My question is, why is this only something Marines should get? Reanimation Protocols was a non-functioning ability for 3 years in 8th. Why should Necron players wait all that time for a brand new Codex to fix it with nothing else to compensate for that? Why couldn't there have been beta rules in WD or one of the FAQ's for new RP rules, or a version of the Command Protocols that the army is going to be getting just as a bandaid fix to tide people over for a while?



honest opinion, most SM players are probably just as pissed at beeing used as cashcows for rules releases as other factions are at the apparent neglect.


^this too. I've also had several marine players leave because GW's business model forces them into a planned obsolescence cycle that would make Steve Jobs blush.

Even now, many of the original models that GW put out with the primaris range are already obsoleted by Iphone 11 Marines. Remember Reivers, Repulsors, Redemptors and Hellblasters? Nooooo nonono, you need to buy Incursors/Infiltrators, Repulsor Executioners/New Predator Thingy, Invictors and Eradicators now! Must consume! can't stop after rebuying your army once just two years ago! MUST CONSUME!!! CODEX 3.0 1 YEAR AFTER YOU BOUGHT 2 CODEXES FOR THE RULES FOR YOUR ARMY!


it's like the bit i stated about narrative players, their supposedly playing the desperate elite of a tyranical feudal technical stagnating empire, with specific subculture. And then suddendly we get what,the thing reversed?
It's also really iffy, regardless if the unit is actually good or not, just suddendly statwise be better then the former specialists.
eradicators torwards firedragons makes a mockery of the lore.
Intercissors roll over Veterans of the long war.

Not to mention the internal balance issues created by this, because why the feth bother with a IH first born squad, when intercissors just do it better.
and on and on and on.

And yes, planed obsolesence is pretty much the name of the game

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Blackie wrote:
Number aren't information, they must be put into some context. Always.

So don't take those numbers as truth, because they're not. SW for example aren't better than Ultramarines, Ravenguard, White Scars and maybe other chapters and yet their winning rate is pretty higher than those other chapters in that table.

And yes, Harlequins can be competitive, but top tier? I wouldn't be so sure. Actually I wouldn't even be sure that they're the top xeno army. They're also an army with just 8 datasheets so if they really become a thing they would probably be quite easy to counter.

Uh...Space wolves are way better than Ultramarines.
They have broken stratagem combos.
Armor of russ makes you fight first.
Nothing can survive their 4+ for additional hits stratagem combo (literally free if they kill a character with it)...if it's turn 3 just forget it. In melee - you die. You just die. Ultramarines are a middle tier army yet again by the stats...

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

Yeah the constant Marine release schedule is leading to burn out for actual Marine players around here. And this is on top of them not really enjoying the army anymore because some of them honestly feel embarrassed to be playing it. I played a game against a friends Black Templar's for our Crusade campaign and he was just constantly apologetic and making self-disparaging remarks about the army (and it was only BT!) All the Marine players I've spoken to locally are actually hoping for Marine nerfs because the way the army plays and interacts with the rules system makes it feel bad to play.

I've said this numerous times before but a lot of the current issues are more design focused than they are balance focused. You can "balance" a lot of the problems by hiking points up and making things super cost inefficient. But when an Imperial Fists Veteran Intercessor Sergeant with the Fist Relic is deadlier in close combat than a Tyranid Hive Tyrant, it just feels bad for everyone involved. The Fists player wants the fantasy of a horrible Alien threat fighting them, the Nid player wants that creature to represent an apex predator at the top of the evolutionary foodchain. The fact that the opposite happens is bad design. When 6 Aggressors leads to a larger increase in game time than the presence of 120 Ork Boyz, that's bad design. You can double the points of the Aggressors and make them irrelevant, but they'll still have mechanics that slow the game down to a crawl and make it a boring, miserable time for everyone involved.

A good example of this is Naga Siren and Goblin Techies in Dota 2. I've not kept up with the game for a while now, but whenever those heroes would get picked a few years ago you'd hear boos from crowds and ResidentSleeper in the Twitch chat. People despised those heroes. But they had sub-40% winrates so were actually underpowered more than anything. It's just they were absolutely miserable to play against and watch because everything about their mechanics and design were anti-fun.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in nl
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Bosskelot wrote:

A good example of this is Naga Siren and Goblin Techies in Dota 2. I've not kept up with the game for a while now, but whenever those heroes would get picked a few years ago you'd hear boos from crowds and ResidentSleeper in the Twitch chat. People despised those heroes. But they had sub-40% winrates so were actually underpowered more than anything. It's just they were absolutely miserable to play against and watch because everything about their mechanics and design were anti-fun.


Now why did you have to do my guy Techies like that?

14000
15000
4000 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Ordana wrote:

As for Marine power level, its not that marines have to be put down, but they can't be at the top and certainly not by a wide margin like we have seen since Marine 2.0
Simply because the army is so popular
. If Nids are the best army in the game (by a small margin, a big margin is always bad) then there will be a couple of nids at a tournament but your not going to see 30% of the field being Nids.
With Marines this does happen because who doesn't have a marine army lying around somewhere.


This feels like it's worth singling out.

No army should be top, not by any discernable margin at least. But to suggest an army should be harder to do well with because they're more popular is counter productive. Just because an army sells well, it doesn't mean they should be automatically at a disadvantage.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Dudeface wrote:
 Ordana wrote:

As for Marine power level, its not that marines have to be put down, but they can't be at the top and certainly not by a wide margin like we have seen since Marine 2.0
Simply because the army is so popular
. If Nids are the best army in the game (by a small margin, a big margin is always bad) then there will be a couple of nids at a tournament but your not going to see 30% of the field being Nids.
With Marines this does happen because who doesn't have a marine army lying around somewhere.


This feels like it's worth singling out.

No army should be top, not by any discernable margin at least. But to suggest an army should be harder to do well with because they're more popular is counter productive. Just because an army sells well, it doesn't mean they should be automatically at a disadvantage.


Aye, however the popularity indeed exemplifies issues especially in the competitive realm where we had 28% of attendees playing SM of some flavour..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Where are all these space marine players asking for their army to be nerfed? LOL.

Nerf my army please! No one will play with me! LOL.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dudeface wrote:
 Ordana wrote:

As for Marine power level, its not that marines have to be put down, but they can't be at the top and certainly not by a wide margin like we have seen since Marine 2.0
Simply because the army is so popular
. If Nids are the best army in the game (by a small margin, a big margin is always bad) then there will be a couple of nids at a tournament but your not going to see 30% of the field being Nids.
With Marines this does happen because who doesn't have a marine army lying around somewhere.


This feels like it's worth singling out.

No army should be top, not by any discernable margin at least. But to suggest an army should be harder to do well with because they're more popular is counter productive. Just because an army sells well, it doesn't mean they should be automatically at a disadvantage.
When an army played by 1% of players is OP you will have a bad game once in a blue moon.
When an army played by 30% of players is OP you will constantly have bad games.

This is a problem for the perception of your players and we are certainly seeing the effect of that right now.
That doesn't mean marines should be disadvantaged because they are popular, but when the popular army is broken its effect is large and oppressive.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Ordana wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Ordana wrote:

As for Marine power level, its not that marines have to be put down, but they can't be at the top and certainly not by a wide margin like we have seen since Marine 2.0
Simply because the army is so popular
. If Nids are the best army in the game (by a small margin, a big margin is always bad) then there will be a couple of nids at a tournament but your not going to see 30% of the field being Nids.
With Marines this does happen because who doesn't have a marine army lying around somewhere.


This feels like it's worth singling out.

No army should be top, not by any discernable margin at least. But to suggest an army should be harder to do well with because they're more popular is counter productive. Just because an army sells well, it doesn't mean they should be automatically at a disadvantage.
When an army played by 1% of players is OP you will have a bad game once in a blue moon.
When an army played by 30% of players is OP you will constantly have bad games.

This is a problem for the perception of your players and we are certainly seeing the effect of that right now.
That doesn't mean marines should be disadvantaged because they are popular, but when the popular army is broken its effect is large and oppressive.


Yes but there is a place where nobody is op and that's the dream. It's not about marines being weaker and someone else being op, its about everyone having reasonable odds to win.

You'd see more marine wins due to more marine armies still, but it'd be proportional is the idea.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Don't have marines ignoring core rules of the game. Nobody can have 2 warlord traits in a single character. Why can Marines? Nobody can deepstrike T1. Why can marines? Nobody can get reroll all hits as an aura. Why can marines?

At least 3 armies off the top of my head that aren't loyalist marines can reroll hits in an aura. As far as the warlord traits go a lot of armies in PA got strats to give out additional warlord traits to nonwarlord models or the ability to give units additional abilities that are similar to warlord traits, such as Harlequins pivotal role strat. So that isn't really unique to marines.

Drop pods can arrive on turn one but are more of a trade off. Yes you can arrive on turn 1 but the drop pod itself ranges from awful to a liability once it arrives. Drop pods breaking the normal reserve rules has been a thing for what a least a decade in GW games IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Where are all these space marine players asking for their army to be nerfed? LOL.

Nerf my army please! No one will play with me! LOL.

I have seen this before myself. It usually happens because the other person is complaining non stop about marines and the marine player is trying to be "nice".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 14:28:32


 
   
 
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