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Voss wrote:
 Grumblewartz wrote:
This was one of the worst aspects of the new fluff. It shattered the image of an Imperium struggling to survive but still on the cusp of collapse. I have come to reconcile it by looking at it not as a sign that the Imperium is suddenly more capable of production but, rather, that the Imperium has always lacked focus, a clear unified agenda, and strong leadership. The primarch's return means that there is a rare glimmer of unity that has been sorely lacking with various institutions literally fighting one another. If even a small fraction of the Imperium's resources could be marshaled under with a single goal in mind, they could more than easily produce the arms, ships, weapons, etc. necessary to outfit millions of marines. The point is that to do so means taking resources from another branch of the government and, normally, that would have led to overt conflict that stalled any ambitious plans.


Its actually even more byzantine and complicated than that.
There are a lot of details to it, but the hard stop is the Ad Mech aren't part of the Imperium. They're _allied_ to the Imperium.
In practice this line gets blurred, but the Ad Mech have a lot of ability to say 'No.' Especially at lower levels- any random general or fleet commander doesn't have a lot of leverage barring exceptional circumstances like, 'Hey, there is a tyranid fleet incoming next month, and we can just not be here when it arrives.'

And equipment from Forge Worlds usually flows to the Ministorum, who assign it based on the information they have, which may be years or decades out of date. The Navy and the Guard are also separate organizations so things can also get out of whack there, and sometimes the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition can put their own individual oars in. Oh and sometimes supplies go out on chartered ships, so that's another organization involved. And the Navigators are their own organization with their own pull, and despite being filthy mutants, that matters sometimes too.

Any supply trip involves at least a half-a-dozen institutions, plus the local planets and their rulers, and any of them have the ability to introduce complications.


The Martian Mechanicum had a proper alliance with the Emperor, but post-binary succession and the creation of the Adeptus Mechanicus they are well and truly part of the Imperium. You also seem to otherwise be a bit confused with your terminology and description of the power/administrative structure. The Ministorum is the Ecclesiarchy, the other one-third of the Imperium. The Imperial Guard sort under the Munitorum, the Navy under the Fleet, the Munitorum and the Fleet sort under the Administratum which sort under the Adeptus Terra which is on the same level as the Mechanicus and Ministorum.
   
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Executing Exarch






Keel wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Grumblewartz wrote:
This was one of the worst aspects of the new fluff. It shattered the image of an Imperium struggling to survive but still on the cusp of collapse. I have come to reconcile it by looking at it not as a sign that the Imperium is suddenly more capable of production but, rather, that the Imperium has always lacked focus, a clear unified agenda, and strong leadership. The primarch's return means that there is a rare glimmer of unity that has been sorely lacking with various institutions literally fighting one another. If even a small fraction of the Imperium's resources could be marshaled under with a single goal in mind, they could more than easily produce the arms, ships, weapons, etc. necessary to outfit millions of marines. The point is that to do so means taking resources from another branch of the government and, normally, that would have led to overt conflict that stalled any ambitious plans.


Its actually even more byzantine and complicated than that.
There are a lot of details to it, but the hard stop is the Ad Mech aren't part of the Imperium. They're _allied_ to the Imperium.
In practice this line gets blurred, but the Ad Mech have a lot of ability to say 'No.' Especially at lower levels- any random general or fleet commander doesn't have a lot of leverage barring exceptional circumstances like, 'Hey, there is a tyranid fleet incoming next month, and we can just not be here when it arrives.'

And equipment from Forge Worlds usually flows to the Ministorum, who assign it based on the information they have, which may be years or decades out of date. The Navy and the Guard are also separate organizations so things can also get out of whack there, and sometimes the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition can put their own individual oars in. Oh and sometimes supplies go out on chartered ships, so that's another organization involved. And the Navigators are their own organization with their own pull, and despite being filthy mutants, that matters sometimes too.

Any supply trip involves at least a half-a-dozen institutions, plus the local planets and their rulers, and any of them have the ability to introduce complications.


The Martian Mechanicum had a proper alliance with the Emperor, but post-binary succession and the creation of the Adeptus Mechanicus they are well and truly part of the Imperium. You also seem to otherwise be a bit confused with your terminology and description of the power/administrative structure. The Ministorum is the Ecclesiarchy, the other one-third of the Imperium. The Imperial Guard sort under the Munitorum, the Navy under the Fleet, the Munitorum and the Fleet sort under the Administratum which sort under the Adeptus Terra which is on the same level as the Mechanicus and Ministorum.


Are there any books that pick up from where Mechanicum leaves off ?
Mars is pretty much a heap of magma and corrupted code at the end of mechanicum..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Keel wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Grumblewartz wrote:
This was one of the worst aspects of the new fluff. It shattered the image of an Imperium struggling to survive but still on the cusp of collapse. I have come to reconcile it by looking at it not as a sign that the Imperium is suddenly more capable of production but, rather, that the Imperium has always lacked focus, a clear unified agenda, and strong leadership. The primarch's return means that there is a rare glimmer of unity that has been sorely lacking with various institutions literally fighting one another. If even a small fraction of the Imperium's resources could be marshaled under with a single goal in mind, they could more than easily produce the arms, ships, weapons, etc. necessary to outfit millions of marines. The point is that to do so means taking resources from another branch of the government and, normally, that would have led to overt conflict that stalled any ambitious plans.


Its actually even more byzantine and complicated than that.
There are a lot of details to it, but the hard stop is the Ad Mech aren't part of the Imperium. They're _allied_ to the Imperium.
In practice this line gets blurred, but the Ad Mech have a lot of ability to say 'No.' Especially at lower levels- any random general or fleet commander doesn't have a lot of leverage barring exceptional circumstances like, 'Hey, there is a tyranid fleet incoming next month, and we can just not be here when it arrives.'

And equipment from Forge Worlds usually flows to the Ministorum, who assign it based on the information they have, which may be years or decades out of date. The Navy and the Guard are also separate organizations so things can also get out of whack there, and sometimes the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition can put their own individual oars in. Oh and sometimes supplies go out on chartered ships, so that's another organization involved. And the Navigators are their own organization with their own pull, and despite being filthy mutants, that matters sometimes too.

Any supply trip involves at least a half-a-dozen institutions, plus the local planets and their rulers, and any of them have the ability to introduce complications.


The Martian Mechanicum had a proper alliance with the Emperor, but post-binary succession and the creation of the Adeptus Mechanicus they are well and truly part of the Imperium. You also seem to otherwise be a bit confused with your terminology and description of the power/administrative structure. The Ministorum is the Ecclesiarchy, the other one-third of the Imperium. The Imperial Guard sort under the Munitorum, the Navy under the Fleet, the Munitorum and the Fleet sort under the Administratum which sort under the Adeptus Terra which is on the same level as the Mechanicus and Ministorum.


Administorum is the one I'm thinking of, yes. Thanks. The nonsense words blur together.

As for Ad Mech, I'm going to blame the Cain books for my impression of that continued division. Both sides seem more than happy to let the other rot in their own problems and stick to their own chains of command and logistics.
Nobody in that series likes or respects the 'cog boys,' and that feeling is returned with machine like regularity.

It comes up in other materials too, like the Priest/Lords/God of Mars series, where the division between Ad Mech and Imperium is really stark.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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I remember a story about some techpriests scheming to get a Knight house back under their control (it used to be aligned with the Mechanicus but switched alliegance to the Imperium at some point).
Whether the AdMech is officially part of the Imperium or not, it certainly has its own agenda and its own sphere of influence.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Space marines draw upon the resources of a 1 million planet empire. It is pretty close to infinite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
The good news is that once all the old marines are largely passed away and all the chapters are largely primaris they can give all the old bolt guns and power armour to the imperial guard. Because surely any right minded general would want to buff the majority of its fighting force, not just focus on their elite units that only engage in focused area of combat along the war zones.

The IG commits more soldiers to war than SM so much f cawl can creat fancy new power armour etc why wouldn’t he make a better las rifle and more resilient flack armour?

Slightly upgrade the tools of a trillion men? or greatly upgrade the tools for a million super soldiers?


Ignore the vast majority of your army and just focus on outfitting a small percentage? Great way to sell models not a great way to win the war. The imperial guard goes through soldiers like PizzaExpress goes through cheese. They must be making new kit constantly to supply the sheep’s of war
   
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Exactly that reason.

Guardsmen don’t tend to survive long. At all. Hence they rely upon overwhelming numbers.

Now, you’ve a billion soldiers to not only equip, but train. And you need them on the frontlines as soon as possible.

Most of them likely can’t read, and are pretty young.

Some might come from PDF’s, where you taken the cream of the crop. They’ll have basic training, and familiarity with deliberately basic weapons (so if you need to re-educate a rebellious planet, it doesn’t take too long)

Technological ignorance is also the coin of your realm. Provided they’re from a fairly advanced planet, their only interaction with technology will be from their family’s allotted tasks.

Now, the more complex the weapon, the longer it takes to train them in how to maintain it.

Lasguns are of course pretty straight forward as covered. No moving parts, ammunition is plentiful, rechargeable, and light to carry. If a part does wear out? Easy to replace. Even the most backwards savage can be taught how to unscrew a barrel and screw in a replacement.

They’re also produced in frankly staggering numbers.

IG equipment is a balance between effectiveness, ease of maintenance and ease of production.

Change that for Bolters or slightly better weapons? You’re altering that dynamic, and the resources required to equip your billion men.

Oh, and you’re training and equipping a billion men every single week, possibly every single day. Any changes to the equipment will mean changes to the production facilities, materials required, and the expertise needed to produce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally? (Yay afterthoughts!)

If you don’t meet your quotas? You’re probably dead meat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 09:26:10


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I accept the the logistics of the IG are staggering. What I am saying is that Mr Cawl is clearly such a genius that he could create a better lasrifle and a better flick jacket that requires no extra training. They are the same thing but better. You don’t need to read the instruction if you splash out on a good pair of jeans, you put them on. Las rifle point and shoot.

All I’m trying to donut point out a big gaping hole that GW have created by creating a new bit of lore so they can molly coddle their favourite army.

If Cawl can get away with enhancing marine tech the heads of the Astra militarum should be spitting acid that the AD Mech is ignoring their army. I don’t believe the IG have been fighting 100% the same way for 10k years, again if everyone else can change why not them.

And the sister of battle! Don’t they want heavy bolters. The point is that now the imperium can make these things, even if they haven’t made them yet because the lore now exists that states the imperium can innovate and win the internal religious and cultural arguments that have prevented it from happening in the past. Just some thicker armour for a tank, high velocity rounds. Bring back displacement shields. It’s all on the cards

But it won’t happen cos GW have tried to Pretend that this isn’t the the change they have implemented in the lore.
   
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mrFickle wrote:I accept the the logistics of the IG are staggering. What I am saying is that Mr Cawl is clearly such a genius that he could create a better lasrifle and a better flick jacket that requires no extra training. They are the same thing but better. You don’t need to read the instruction if you splash out on a good pair of jeans, you put them on. Las rifle point and shoot.
Maybe Cawl could. But again, think of the scale.

If the upgrade takes even only 1% more effort, across the whole Imperium, that's an utterly OBSCENE amount of work to go through for upgrading what is essentially cannon fodder. You seem to assume that Cawl *does* have infinite resources, which simply isn't true. Does Cawl have massive resources and political pull at his disposal? Absolutely. Does Cawl have enough to re-equip the entire Imperium's military? Definitely not.

All I’m trying to donut point out a big gaping hole that GW have created by creating a new bit of lore so they can molly coddle their favourite army.
There's no gaping hole. It's as simple as "Cawl thought enhancing Space Marines would be more effective than trying to enhance the Guardsmen due the initial time investment into Astartes being significant, and Guardsmen not have any investment"

If Cawl can get away with enhancing marine tech the heads of the Astra militarum should be spitting acid that the AD Mech is ignoring their army.
The heads of the Militarum honestly don't care about their troops. The heads of the Militarum would also understand the massive logistical nightmare that upgrading every single one of their troops would be. So, no, I don't think they run to Cawl crying about "why did you focus on the Emperor's angels instead of these grunts?"
I don’t believe the IG have been fighting 100% the same way for 10k years, again if everyone else can change why not them.
The Militarum have changed on an ad-hoc basis, and arguably since the Great Crusade, have gotten WORSE. There's been no massive positive sweep through the system. Localised forced might get some good stuff from their local forge world or culture, but these aren't widespread. Again - the Imperial Guard is MASSIVE.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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As Sgt_Smudge said.

Consider the roles of the IG and Marines.

Marines are surgical. Their purpose is to utterly annihilate the enemy command structure. Against pretty much all the Imperium’s foes, it’s the quickest way to destabilised the enemy war machine.

Take out the Warboss, and the Waaagh! Spends as much time fighting itself as fighting you.

Tear apart the Hive Fleet, and that problem is largely contained for the time being.

Eldar? Each Farseer lost is arguably irreplaceable.

And so on and so forth. Cawl has ensured they’ve the killiest and most efficient tools to do so. The biological tweaking also means your average Marine remains combat effective for longer, both in the field and in terms of life expectancy over their career.


IG? Overwhelming numbers that can, with a fair warp (there’s always a problem!) just be ferried in in endless droves. They are a tool of sheer attrition. So they’re not equipped to a high standard, let alone the logistics of improving their weapons and other basic equipment.


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If it were true that 1% of change would be too much effort then it would have been impossible to establish the the IG in the first place. The imperium is one big war machine, all you have to do is stop making lasting V1 and start making Lasgun V2 and eventually turn over will see the whole army upgraded. The effort that is going into building floating tanks must be significantly more than enhancing simple tech.

And the point is it doesn’t have to be Cawl, he has just broken the mould. Any ambitious Ad Mech dude wanting to secure favours from someone within the AM, Navy or anywhere Else could turn up with some boosted gear.

And it’s not Cawl. It’s the Cawl story line that has created an inconsistency that can justify Significant technological advancement can happen in one place but can’t take place in another.

The reason GW have for Dark Angles being able to field certain different types of weapons and an a seemingly unlimited number of Deathwing terminator was because the core of the rock Is full of ancient armouries from the crusade. That’s how Sammeal can fly around on his jet bike. Not because there was a terminator production line.

Now that’s redundant story isn’t it because the admech can just make stuff for you.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
If it were true that 1% of change would be too much effort then it would have been impossible to establish the the IG in the first place. The imperium is one big war machine, all you have to do is stop making lasting V1 and start making Lasgun V2 and eventually turn over will see the whole army upgraded.


all you have to do is stop making lasting V1 and start making Lasgun V2


all you have to do


That in and of itself is a horribly difficult thing to do.

See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. 
   
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Cawl had 10 000 years to work on his projects. I don't know how much of it was spent on weapon design and how much was spent playing solitaire, but improving lasguns even a little bit might well take a few millenia.
   
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It’s the year 40K and people fly through a different dimension in a Bubble of reality to avoid being eaten by demons. “It’s difficult” doesn’t support any Argument

It took 10k years to sort out the primaris. Anything is possible
   
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England

mrFickle wrote:
It’s the year 40K and people fly through a different dimension in a Bubble of reality to avoid being eaten by demons. “It’s difficult” doesn’t support any Argument


...it does. It literally does. How far do you think Cawl would have got with Primaris if he’d been doing it under scrutiny? Forge Worlds do their own thing. They have done since the Long Night. They’re not going to suddenly change their manufacturing techniques.

See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. 
   
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 DalekCheese wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
It’s the year 40K and people fly through a different dimension in a Bubble of reality to avoid being eaten by demons. “It’s difficult” doesn’t support any Argument


...it does. It literally does. How far do you think Cawl would have got with Primaris if he’d been doing it under scrutiny? Forge Worlds do their own thing. They have done since the Long Night. They’re not going to suddenly change their manufacturing techniques.


But SM gears wasn’t made all in one place it was made on lots of different forge worlds and the same must be true for primaris
   
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When Lord Guilliman, biological Son of The Emperor, and Regent by appointment of the High Lords of Terra (which includes the head honcho of the Mechanicus) says you devote certain resources to arming Astartes?

You......kinda do it.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
When Lord Guilliman, biological Son of The Emperor, and Regent by appointment of the High Lords of Terra (which includes the head honcho of the Mechanicus) says you devote certain resources to arming Astartes?

You......kinda do it.


Yes and he could say, now do the IG
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
When Lord Guilliman, biological Son of The Emperor, and Regent by appointment of the High Lords of Terra (which includes the head honcho of the Mechanicus) says you devote certain resources to arming Astartes?

You......kinda do it.


Yes and he could say, now do the IG
And how many resources would that take? Would it even be worth doing it, when you could just upgrade literally anything else first, instead of the meat shields with easy-manufacture arms and armour?

You really do seem to have leant into the "well. Cawl can do anything he wants" approach when you don't even know how true that is. Just because Cawl can upgrade Space Marines doesn't mean for a second he could do the same for Guardsmen, because Guardsmen are totally different.

It's like saying "well, you can lift a car, so you must be able to lift a truck!"

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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mrFickle wrote:
 DalekCheese wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
It’s the year 40K and people fly through a different dimension in a Bubble of reality to avoid being eaten by demons. “It’s difficult” doesn’t support any Argument


...it does. It literally does. How far do you think Cawl would have got with Primaris if he’d been doing it under scrutiny? Forge Worlds do their own thing. They have done since the Long Night. They’re not going to suddenly change their manufacturing techniques.


But SM gears wasn’t made all in one place it was made on lots of different forge worlds and the same must be true for primaris

It was not. And there isn't any reason it 'must' be.

The equipment was (at least up to the unveiling) was made on Cawl's Ark Mechanicus, the Zar Quaesitor. The Arks are ridiculously huge ships, and they casually mention that making the thing would have required stripping "dozens" of worlds of all their resources. Its a miniature forge world, and its manufacturing was primarily aimed at stockpiling Primaris gear. Over thousands of years. Try to imagine the resources of multiple worlds being shaped towards advanced manufacturing for the entire span of human history to date.

There was hold after hold of tanks, battle walkers, aircraft and void fighters, all of unfamiliar, new designs. His battleplate rapidly scanned them for combat capabilities, flashing hints of unknown technologies across his helmplate. All were obviously intended for the Adeptus Astartes. He was still trying to evaluate the equipment when they went into another hold and further wonders were revealed: thousands of suits of power armour waited for wearers in silent ranks, their plates part-wrapped in protective films, hanging from padded armatures in racks dozens of layers high.

Haley, Guy. Avenging Son (Dawn of Fire Warhammer 40,000 Book 1) (p. 167). Kindle Edition.


But no, that isn't the same as providing equipment for billions of guardsmen who are actively using and losing equipment, requiring parts, etc.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 19:36:44


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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, dangerous theory time.

Cawl was, as I am understanding, given direct orders to start stockpiling and keep improving despite what the rest of the Cogboys are doing at the time. He was also one of the original guys (well, kinda) working on Space Marines, so he knows what he's doing more so than the average Cogboy.

Now, keep in mind that Cawl's motivations may be sketchy- but his work has been focused on the Primaris project. He's not been worrying about advancing to the next tier Cogboy priest rank, he's not had to navigate Cogboy politics, he's not had to divide his work efforts between as many things as a good chunk of the Cogboys are prone to doing. Or maybe it has, and he's just been at this so long he's learned to manage his tasks better than they do.

I have a theory that the Admech has spent the last ~10,000 years looking at the Imperium and saying, "Yup, they're screwed". Not "We", but "They". I've had a feeling that the overall Admech has been silently wanting to sever ties to the Imperium and nullify the Treaty of Olympus Mons- but without particularly making it obvious and provoking a response from the Imperium. I think they've not necessarily withheld technology and deliberately slowed production, but maybe they've... taken extra precautionary methods that require more time. Or redirected their priorities for resources here and there.

Like- imagine one of those shady mechanics that finds 10 problems with your truck when you just wanted him to fix 2 things. He's probably exaggerating most, if not all of the other 8 problems he found- and there's even a chance those 'broken' things are something that he broke and thought you'd never realize it. Some of those problems aren't really 'problems' at all, or they're something you could take care of in an hour. So he's gonna milk you for every buck he can.

Keep in mind that there were a lot of traitors in the Admech during the Horus Heresy and at a certain point, the Imperium didn't bother with trying to figure out which ones were loyal and which ones weren't- they were too important and it simply wasn't worth the effort. After the insanity that went down on Mars combined with the Horus Heresy, I doubt either side wanted to fire up any sort of violent, destructive purge on Mars and deplete even MORE lives and resources- both were content to just agree that all the Cogboys that were left were good Cogboys, and as long as they played loyal there was no reason to speculate otherwise, right?

I think the Admech has, for the longest time, looked at their arrangement with the Imperium and seen the obvious:
-The Imperium needs the Admech, not nearly as much vice versa
-The Admech will get Astartes visits if they don't help the Imperium
-Astartes need to be armed by Admech routinely in order to be dangerous
-The less dangerous the Astartes are, the less leverage the Imperium has over the Admech
-Every world can be a Forge World if you're brave enough

And then comes Cawl, out of nowhere, giving the Chapters of Astartes loads of new wargear and more badass Marines. And there's a living demigod that's pushing that forward.

The game's changed now. So yeah, the Admech hates Cawl for a reason. Well, a lot of reasons- some better than others. But when this MIA Cogboy shows up and essentially tilts the balance of power back into the hands of the Imperium and puts them on slightly more even footing? Well, yeah, of course he's a Heretek. For... reasons and stuff. Like... that stuff other Cogboys have been trying to do or have done themselves, yeah. That's it. Shame on him.

Of course, when something like this happens- you can bet there's a ton of Cogboys that take the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" route and suddenly manifest the knowledge to assist in keeping those new Astartes boys fit to fight. That gun system that took a year to fix? Well of course now they can knock that out in a week. All that stuff Cawl's doing with power armor and the like? Yeah, oh look at that- mmmmaaaaybe those rites and prayers and ungents and what-have-you that took weeks? Well, they can do a condensed version, I suppose. Praise the Omnissiah, I suppose.


Your reasoning sounds plausible to me. We have to remember that most of the "fluff" is actually propaganda - it does not necessarily reflect the realities of the setting. The whole Admech being superstitious almost to the point of luddism sounds to me like some kind of front they want to maintain in order to hide their real agendas & capabilities, maybe even from within themselves. Think of something like Scientology and you'll know what I mean.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 06:20:39


 
   
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As to resources let's face it, the imperium as been on a state of emergency since the rift opened. Boy, you thought the was bad before, afterwards it got a whole ing lot worse.

On most planets still under imperial rule the military is likely the only priority. Mass starvation s the rule of the day for most people. Anyone unable to work in a factorum producing supplies or do any work essential to the war effort has probably been killed. Most likely converted to corpse starch to feed the workers a minimal diet.

Old? Dead. Sick? Dead? Injured and crippled? Dead. Slow? Dead. Have no skills directly related to the war effort? Worked to death at slave labor, dead.

Masses of population have likely been converted to servitors that run on recycled nutrients at minimum levels.

Reproduction is likely tightly controlled, with prenatal screening for any possibly birth defects resulting in early termination of the pregnancy.

Some planets may have 'birth servitors" who do nothing but produce viable worker fetuses constantly.

Maybe the infamous and mystery shrouded methods Krieg uses to produce so many warriors so quickly has been exported to other worlds to produce pure workers, as well as fighting men for the guard depending on the planet's resources.

So yeah they have a lot of resources for the war, by making the current imperium such a hell that it makes the pre rift imperium look like "The good ol' days."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 06:33:46



 
   
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I think it’s worth remembering that Cawl will have made- what- a million suits of MkX armour? Absolute maximum.

There are anywhere from billions to quadrillions of Guardsmen out there.

See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. 
   
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 tauist wrote:
Your reasoning sounds plausible to me. We have to remember that most of the "fluff" is actually propaganda - it does not necessarily reflect the realities of the setting. The whole Admech being superstitious almost to the point of luddism sounds to me like some kind of front they want to maintain in order to hide their real agendas & capabilities, maybe even from within themselves. Think of something like Scientology and you'll know what I mean.

Considering that a lot of these 'accounts' are from the perspectives of people on the ground, directly or by proxy- their own interpretations of things are entirely up for debate. In some cases, the source of the information may in fact be absolutely out of his gourd or embellishing the events.

You also have to understand that it's a lot like a modern, real-world military.

In the olden days when I was a Marine (Standard Terran of the Merica region, not gene-enhanced)- we believed things like "the Air Force gets extra money if they aren't in their dorms"- well, there was a little truth and a little myth to that. Truth: If the Air Force was housed in substandard housing for an extended period of time, the Air Force didn't take their full housing allowance out of their paycheck (your housing allowance is basically 'rent' and if you live in the barracks on on-post housing, they just deduct your 'rent' automatically). This wasn't 'extra pay', this was the Air Force basically not screwing over their troops- unlike the Marine Corps, which would stack 3 4 guys in a room too small for a 40k table with communal showers for the whole floor and deduct the same amount as they would if you had your own private room, and shared common area with one other Marine (and the Corps came under fire for this and someone lit a fire under their 4th Point of Contact to get this resolved).

Other things we believed- it was always the same: A bit of truth, a bit of urban legend, and somewhere in between was the reality of it that made sense.

The Admech isn't superstitious and ridiculous about technology- they're cautious. Let's look at these things:

There's that theory that the AI's of the Men of Iron were shattered into fragments of technology, a very tiny dumbed-down version of what they once were- and now exist as 'machine spirits' in common technology across the Imperium. Dark Age Archeotech is beyond human comprehension, and so outright terrifying that even Necrons seethe with envy. Heretical Chaos Scrap Code from 4Chan Hackers on the Deep Web of the Warp can Demon-Possess a machine, which is basically like frequently using Limewire to download porn in 2020. Some of the data could be McAffee antivirus and 30-Day AOL free trials. Oh, and the Void Dragon- or part of it- may have farted out a good chunk of the technology throughout the ages after Big E sent it to the Vaults without dinner for being rude.

So, yeah- to the average guardsman whose entire understanding of technology is "heehaw, chainsword go brrrr"- it probably looks like supersitious religious weirdo stuff. But... Maybe those 'rites and incantations' are the Grimdark equivalent of "Rubber Duck Debugging", or a way for the Cogboy to remember the steps of proper maintenance/assembly/troubleshooting- Kinda like associating a song or rhyme with something to make sure you don't miss a step. Hell, for all we know- they could be just doting on the machine to see how it's Machine Spirit responds; and if it gets nasty they can utilize percussion maintenance before declaring it defective and blaming that guardsman with the dumb face (he looks like the kind of guy that would screw things up, Commissar will believe it).

In a setting where 'technology' is the Deathwatch Stalker Bolt Rifle that explodes the head of a Genestealer Patriarch, a Baneblade that drops a rampaging Heretic's Knight Titan, the Mechanism that keeps the Life-Eater virus bombs inert, the keypad that activates the Gellar Field, and the Cogitator with your hidden folder of Aeldari Hentai- they've got a lot of reasons to be cautious.

And the Admech isn't going to try to explain this to the general public, nor is the Imperium. Why? Because people are people, whether it's Grimdark or modern-day real-world... you'd have thousands of idiots creating religions worshipping the "god" in their microwave. Or worse- guard regiments freaking the hell out over the rumors that the Vox-Casters have the ghosts of AI Robot Demons in there giving them wrong orders on purpose. Before you know it all these crazy superstitions and beliefs create a new Chaos God in the Warp calling itself 'Fore-Chan'. Just like how Orks have a gestalt psychic consciousness that makes them more resourceful and kunnin' over time? Humans have one that makes them dumber.

With all that out of the way- the reason I believe there's more assets being diverted to the Astartes? Let's be very, very honest:

A guardsman is very often some dude who's mostly capable of using an idiot-proof rifle and following basic commands, and when he doesn't there's a spicy man with a black trenchcoat to free up his lasrifle for the next unlucky moron that's just learned what bootlaces are and managed to get his footwear on the correct feet.

A Space Marine is created from an extremely rare demographic of guys that can punch Orks to death at the age of 13, and then they get further 'investment' with the very limited selection of gene-seed implantation and the massively expensive/time-consuming process that turns them into Space Marines. Not only that, but there's the Power Armor that goes on this badass and his weapons... oh, and these guys also have been brainwashed to really, REALLY like to go and fight/kill things that also like to fight/kill and those enemy things can sometimes shred Space Marines... but Space Marines practically get a pickle tickle from the idea of dying a heroic death on the battlefield as the last man standing, so... essentially you're trying to keep these self-destructive and hyper-violent sociopaths alive as long as you can, so you're probably going to want to give them stuff that makes them less likely to die and more likely to depopulate an entire army of enemies that had the audacity not to be born human and/or have the wrong religion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:15:08


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I consider the guard to be like the allies in WW2. Lots of them have never driven a vehicle before. But they weren't stupid. Most could read. They used tactics but numbers still mattered especially against more experienced troops with superior equipment. The guard hurr duurr wave attack is mainly a meme.

On the space marine logistics, it would be easier to upgrade marines as they manufacture their own equipment anyway (Well most of it). No need to reconfigure a forgeworlds supply chain when you can just change your own Chapters forge.
   
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Tygre wrote:
The guard hurr duurr wave attack is mainly a meme.

Generals ordering frontal assaults even though the previous ones ended up with tens of thousands of casualties and no progress? Surely no one would be that dense...

   
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New Zealand

 Tiennos wrote:
Tygre wrote:
The guard hurr duurr wave attack is mainly a meme.

Generals ordering frontal assaults even though the previous ones ended up with tens of thousands of casualties and no progress? Surely no one would be that dense...



Yes some generals were dense and used outdated tactics. Frontal attacks worked prior to WW1. Not all generals were that dense. Even Hague improved. And sometimes frontal assaults are warranted, see D-Day in WW2. Mass frontal attacks would be used when appropriate or by some (not all) wasteful generals, but every time.

So I don't derail this thread further, I will reiterate my on topic point from earlier. It would be much easier to change local production than large parts of the logistics chain.
   
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If you want a look at what the guard seems to be based on I recommend "inside the soviet army" by Vikton Suvurov.

He detailed life as a draftee in the soviet army and how it was designed to indoctrinate people into accepting the total power of THE STATE and to submit automatically to any orders.

Sure sounds like the guard to me, you people might like it.


 
   
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Tygre wrote:
On the space marine logistics, it would be easier to upgrade marines as they manufacture their own equipment anyway (Well most of it). No need to reconfigure a forgeworlds supply chain when you can just change your own Chapters forge.


I'd always figured Astartes may have some limited capacity to work on their wargear and maintain it- but the bulk of the raw materials and core components are going to go through a Forge World or at least some collective bunch of Cogboys. The idea of Marines having to produce all of their own wargear- even for 1000 Astartes- they'd be spending well over 90% of their time hunting down resources just to stay mostly functional.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
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Stevenage, UK

My understanding is that raw materials might come from elsewhere, and the initial units might come off of a Forge World conveyor belt. But once it's in the Chapter's hands? The Techmarines and armourers get to maintain it. Everything from bolters and chainswords up to Thunderhawks. It is, after all, pretty much their entire fluff purpose.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
My understanding is that raw materials might come from elsewhere, and the initial units might come off of a Forge World conveyor belt. But once it's in the Chapter's hands? The Techmarines and armourers get to maintain it. Everything from bolters and chainswords up to Thunderhawks. It is, after all, pretty much their entire fluff purpose.


Yeah, techmarines and baseline humans (and failed aspirants, low level tech-adepts) armorers/equerries/whatever the chapter/legion calls them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 20:44:46


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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