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 iGuy91 wrote:

Unlikely. They only target 1 unit to begin with. My money is they don't change. We'll see.


Right there are a lot of "not an aura" type abilities. I imagine those could be exceptions to this. We've also see the (Aura) keyword on other stuff so we know it will be called out.

   
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 Xenomancers wrote:

No major game mechanics had changed.


This is demonstrably false. As you yourself go on to admit. Im beginning to recall why you're unable to grokk quite literally anything placed in your path.
   
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 Aaranis wrote:
As I said in the AdMech thread, I think it's a great change and I'm all for it, but they'll need to do more than copy-paste 8th codices to 9th as for example, Kastelan Robots are terrible without rerolls, and I doubt they'll be "Core". It could also mean that less used characters could be rewritten so as to fill a role of buffer of specific units, like the Datasmith could give the Robots +1 to Hit if he's nearby or something more original. That would give use to forgotten characters if done right.

Makes units and intra-codex balance hell of a lot easier too. Like, Guilliman could be costed better knowing he won't just be surrounded by 6 tanks in game.

9th giveth the ability to shoot your bots twice in melee and 9th taketh away the ability to still hit the majority of the time by having re-roll everything from Cawl. Archon buffing Ravagers was to me a common and unsightly sight in 8th. I hope Talos become core, it would be real silly if Haemonculus could not babysit their big babies. I wonder if targeted abilities like MWBD and psychic powers will be limited in any way, it seems a little unfair that Necrons can order their tanks to shoot harder, but not Adeptus Astartes. I hope that FW Dreadnoughts don't become core, I don't think they need to be.
   
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 iGuy91 wrote:
Voss wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Hooooly crap.
That is a massive, massive meta-shaking change. Depending on what gets 'core' list comp is going to shift dramatically.

Characters also not getting their own reroll auras makes for an interesting change too.

(Also - Snickers as a Necron player who basically never got aura buffs to begin with)


You realize this is likely to affect My Will Be Done and the new Relentless March, right?


Unlikely. They only target 1 unit to begin with. My money is they don't change. We'll see.


What now?
Relentless March (Aura): When a <Dynasty> unit within 6" is selected to make a Normal Move or Advance. add 1" to the distance it can move

So, yeah. This is obviously affected.

MWBD may not be, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't change to 'select one <Dynasty> Core Unit.'

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:12:30


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sooooooo why shouldn't a Captain be inspiring anything shooting to begin with? Inconsistency is inconsistency.

It's stupid because it's GW showing they can't write rules. This is literally the same as every other nerfhammer thing they've done. The fact people are for it shows they have memories of goldfish.


(fills out another box on the Dakka bingo card)

Why does this display an inability to write rules?

In what way are selective auras different from stratagems that target specific units?


Stack army with core units. Buff whole army.

Don't do it - get less value.

OFC your point is taken. Stratagems that buff entire units buff more based on the number of models and does not increase stratagem cost (in most cases). This is fundamentally unbalanced. I suspect stratagems will also follow this core unit trend. Might not be a problem. If units that aren't core get a big drop in price.

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Let's tone things down please, rule #1 is not optional.

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 vict0988 wrote:
I wonder if targeted abilities like MWBD and psychic powers will be limited in any way, it seems a little unfair that Necrons can order their tanks to shoot harder, but not Adeptus Astartes. I hope that FW Dreadnoughts don't become core, I don't think they need to be.


I doubt dreads will be core. It's a huge relief to not deal with Stormcannon rerolls.

We also saw that "Witchfire", "Malediction", etc keywords are coming back, right?

   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

No major game mechanics had changed.


This is demonstrably false. As you yourself go on to admit. Im beginning to recall why you're unable to grokk quite literally anything placed in your path.

How can you make a claim that my subjective opinion is false? Major has a different meaning to me I guess. Insults don't really help any kind of argument you are making ether. BTW - do you have that formula for how they were charging auras?

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

No major game mechanics had changed.


This is demonstrably false. As you yourself go on to admit. Im beginning to recall why you're unable to grokk quite literally anything placed in your path.

How can you make a claim that my subjective opinion is false? Major has a different meaning to me I guess. Insults don't really help any kind of argument you are making ether. BTW - do you have that formula for how they were charging auras?


because you present your opinion as fact.

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Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

No major game mechanics had changed.


This is demonstrably false. As you yourself go on to admit. Im beginning to recall why you're unable to grokk quite literally anything placed in your path.


You are talking to the guy who repeatdly stated he couldn't wait for GW to "crash and burn" as a result of 3D printers because he was struggling to do anything with his Ultramarines prior to the second Codex. After the release of the aforementioned second Codex, he became for a couple of months one of the biggest defender of GW (what a surprise) before switching back to his old habits when GW came with the nerfhammer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 18:32:40


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sooooooo why shouldn't a Captain be inspiring anything shooting to begin with? Inconsistency is inconsistency.

It's stupid because it's GW showing they can't write rules. This is literally the same as every other nerfhammer thing they've done. The fact people are for it shows they have memories of goldfish.


(fills out another box on the Dakka bingo card)

Why does this display an inability to write rules?

In what way are selective auras different from stratagems that target specific units?


Stratagems were already poorly handled to begin with, but it shows inconsistency in which, as we already were told, some vehicles get it but not others for arbitrary reasons besides "We don't want your Captain to give rerolls to THIS unit", and chances are we will have NO fluff explanation as to why.

So basically that would be not far off from just letting the Ironclad Dread benefit from March of the Ancients because a regular shooting Dread with that Character protection is something people just don't like. If there's a problem where you need to select just a few units to work with a rule when it was generalized to begin with, there was already a core problem. Price the Captain accordingly instead of saying he only inspires a couple of units.

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BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:

How can you make a claim that my subjective opinion is false? Major has a different meaning to me I guess.


We know.

We also know that the core rules fundamentally changed every aspect of the game from 8th to 9th. Your statement therefore is that nothing changed from 8th to 9th, which you yourself have admitted is false.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BTW - do you have that formula for how they were charging auras?


Keep on moving those goalposts. Or did you now want to engage on how Tau, Eldar, Thousand Sons and Daemons arent pointed as though they had multiple overlapping buffs assumed in existence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Selfcontrol wrote:

TL;DR : he is an idiot and a buffoon. Don't answer to him


Oh I dont for a moment answer to him. I just find the whole suite of mental gymnastics on display very entertaining.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:24:05


 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stratagems were already poorly handled to begin with, but it shows inconsistency in which, as we already were told, some vehicles get it but not others for arbitrary reasons besides "We don't want your Captain to give rerolls to THIS unit", and chances are we will have NO fluff explanation as to why.

So basically that would be not far off from just letting the Ironclad Dread benefit from March of the Ancients because a regular shooting Dread with that Character protection is something people just don't like. If there's a problem where you need to select just a few units to work with a rule when it was generalized to begin with, there was already a core problem. Price the Captain accordingly instead of saying he only inspires a couple of units.


Costing a captain too high means that then he's worthless UNLESS he's buffing more powerful units. You're painting yourself in the corner with a change like that. Bobby G, QED.

They could have said INFANTRY and BIKES, right? This is no different except it exerts more control. The "vehicles" are probably things like the new attack bike or other small things classing as vehicles where the occupants can interact with a Captain more directly.

If Gravis/Terminator is excepted then its a matter of those units feeling capable without the efforts of the Captain due to their gear or experience. Regardless of the fluff justification I don't see why a keyword selection is any different than what we have now. Rejecting the rules writing comes down to personal preference at that point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:29:38


   
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Hey SM players, your Tanks and Dreads cannot re-roll shooting hits anymore or wounds but these shiny new eradicators and heavy intercessors which are good at shooting can...buy more models
   
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I like it. A lot.

I wonder how it's going to affect list composition across the board

And I wonder how custodes are going to change because of this. Stings a little that our characters are now going to be doing even less in combat.

While we're speaking of auras, what auras do you think WONT only affect core units? Vexilla? Ancient? Chaplain? What about things like eldar/drukhari?

 insaniak wrote:

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blaktoof wrote:
Hey SM players, your Tanks and Dreads cannot re-roll shooting hits anymore or wounds but these shiny new eradicators and heavy intercessors which are good at shooting can...buy more models


Sucks for those brand new land speeders and tanks. So, buy fewer models? I'm so confused without the GW cabal telling me how to buy things! Those evil sinister bastards.

(also check another box on Dakka bingo card)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:31:24


   
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blaktoof wrote:
Hey SM players, your Tanks and Dreads cannot re-roll shooting hits anymore or wounds but these shiny new eradicators and heavy intercessors which are good at shooting can...buy more models


So what's GW's plan with the new speeder and Gladiator tanks then? Loss leader? Inherently less profit that infantry models? They miraculously have the Core keyword? Your conspiracy hypothesis breaks down rather quickly.

   
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Yes! I like it! Less rerolling is a good thing. I suspect this will also apply to many things like psychic powers, litanys, prayers, and hopefully strategems, hopefully curtailing WOMBO COMBO "tactics". Yeah, good change.

Selfcontrol wrote:
 clodax66 wrote:
I really like it. I never liked characters being beat sticks. They should be used to buff others units that are doing the killing and not doing the killing themselves. Kind of like how farseers work in Eldar


It depends on the faction. Chaos Lords are all about individual power and many of them lust after demonic artifacts and weaponry to increase their power and killiness. Chaos Lords being melee beatstick is reasonable. Ork Warbosses are also a case where being melee beatstick is okay.

But it is still a pretty neat change.


This is a good point. Csm characters in older editions didn't really do a lot to "help" the other units in your army, they were primarily just nasty killing machines. Loyalists, on the other hand, had "Rites of Battle" which allowed other units to use their captains leadership for things like morale, target priority, etc. They needed it, because most of their units were L8. Meanwhile csm didn't as most of our units were L9 or L10, signifying that they were veterans of uncounted wars who didn't need someone shouting in their ears to fight better, they just knew how to get the job done. This was a distinction between the two factions. It would be nice if gw would bring this back by making csm units less reliant on HQs by improving some of their stats. Will they do that? Probably not, but it would be nice.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Moving forwards, many of the most powerful aura abilities will only affect Core units from a Character’s (sub-)faction. This represents a more realistic form of in-situ command, with Characters acting like they’re supposed to from a narrative perspective. After all, a Space Marine Captain should be issuing orders and inspiring units of his battle-brothers on the front line, not babysitting a squadron of Repulsor Executioners at the back of the battlefield!


A crucial side-effect of this change is that Characters themselves won’t be affected by aura abilities that utilise the Core keyword – they’re supposed to be commanding others, not inspiring themselves to do better! In the example shown above, the Space Marine Captain won’t be able to re-roll his hit rolls of 1 and will instead have to rely on his own merit to strike home. To be fair, he’ll usually hit on a 2+ anyway!


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&utm_content=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&fbclid=IwAR2oAM0YiF0RAFFJVzXDcOQhXdz-StmmhD6oEXAKZrwshZxZY2EFGs9dtw8



Oh, good, this is exactly what the game needed.

What's "core" and receives buffs and what doesn't is invariably going to be arbitrary, or even worse, sub-faction locked. This is in the same vein where C/SM tank crewmen are/were apparently not part of any chapter or legion's doctrine despite their existence on the TO&E and more than one legion/chapter having armored units as integral parts of their doctrine.

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Voss wrote:

MWBD may not be, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't change to 'select one <Dynasty> Core Unit.'


For one buff to single unit isn't that big nor is +1 to hit as big thing as rr all rolls. It's aura affecting pretty much entire gunline that has been issue and which makes giving point cost that's fair impossible. You either underpay or overpay. Single targeted buff is lot easier to assign point cost.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Stratagems were already poorly handled to begin with, but it shows inconsistency in which, as we already were told, some vehicles get it but not others for arbitrary reasons besides "We don't want your Captain to give rerolls to THIS unit", and chances are we will have NO fluff explanation as to why.

So basically that would be not far off from just letting the Ironclad Dread benefit from March of the Ancients because a regular shooting Dread with that Character protection is something people just don't like. If there's a problem where you need to select just a few units to work with a rule when it was generalized to begin with, there was already a core problem. Price the Captain accordingly instead of saying he only inspires a couple of units.


Costing a captain too high means that then he's worthless UNLESS he's buffing more powerful units. You're painting yourself in the corner with a change like that. Bobby G, QED.

They could have said INFANTRY and BIKES, right? This is no different except it exerts more control. The "vehicles" are probably things like the new attack bike or other small things classing as vehicles where the occupants can interact with a Captain more directly.

Thats really under the assumption that giant tanks with the reroll were problems to begin with. They already created a new unit entry for the Chapter Master. If you dont want something expensive you can get the Captain. Rerolling all hits regardless of modifiers should be expensive. You don't want that for anything with dinky offense to begin with.
And Roboute was too powerful because you really can't price rerolling all wounds for ANYTHING in an aura like his. He was too good with Razorbacks but he was too good with even just Predators and Intercessors and Grav Devastators, etc.

Also regardless of the concern of "pricing Captains too expensive" thats like saying the CSM shoot twice strat should have a different CP cost on anything not Obliterators, but you're not going to use it on anything not Obliterators to begin with.
   
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Good.

Puts a balance lever in place that needed to be in place. Silly to have a 68pt captain applying the same RR 1s to hit buff equally to a 50pt scout squad and a 750pt astraeus super heavy tank.

Ideally, they'd replace the use of characters as bubble buddies for your army with some...other job for them to do, particularly with factions who are suffering in the HQ department like DE.

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Spoiler:
Also regardless of the concern of "pricing Captains too expensive" thats like saying the CSM shoot twice strat should have a different CP cost on anything not Obliterators, but you're not going to use it on anything not Obliterators to begin with.


Which is exactly why I expect Endless Cacophonies to be severly nerfed / limited in the future Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:41:34


 
   
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Selfcontrol wrote:
Spoiler:
Also regardless of the concern of "pricing Captains too expensive" thats like saying the CSM shoot twice strat should have a different CP cost on anything not Obliterators, but you're not going to use it on anything not Obliterators to begin with.


Which is exactly why I expect Endless Cacophonies to be severly nerfed / limited in the future Codex.


or just remove it and buff the usual targets with either pts drop or output potential buff.

Termies, Havocs and oblits are overcosted when they dont have VotlW + EC on them.

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tneva82 wrote:
Voss wrote:

MWBD may not be, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't change to 'select one <Dynasty> Core Unit.'


For one buff to single unit isn't that big nor is +1 to hit as big thing as rr all rolls. It's aura affecting pretty much entire gunline that has been issue and which makes giving point cost that's fair impossible. You either underpay or overpay. Single targeted buff is lot easier to assign point cost.


Yeah, this change seems like it was specifically targeted to reign in how prolific Auras are. Auras have probably been one of the biggest complaints of the previous edition and this seems like a good change.

As you pointed out, Auras in general are significantly more powerful than targeted abilities in most cases. I don't see MWBD changing to core for this reason. Same as our new Chronometron.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

If Gravis/Terminator is excepted then its a matter of those units feeling capable without the efforts of the Captain due to their gear or experience. Regardless of the fluff justification I don't see why a keyword selection is any different than what we have now. Rejecting the rules writing comes down to personal preference at that point.



Maybe when they ment termintor cores, they ment termintors which are not elite options for their specific armies.

Change doesn't affect me that much, because GK were never aura masters, but it seems like it is going to have an impact on marines etc No more 2 drop pods with 15 devastators, a chaplain and a cpt is going to be sad for some people here.

What I wish though, that core rule changes were included in the core rule book. Assuming of course this is a play tested change, that GW planned and not some sudden knee jerk to 9th working different, then what GW thought it would.

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 Super Ready wrote:
I like the implications of what this COULD mean. However, I'm concerned for what will end up counting as a core unit.
I'm hoping at least some of the Marine craziness with Aggressors and the like will be reined in.
If Terminators get it, I’d guess Aggressors do too.

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What I wish though, that core rule changes were included in the core rule book.


It is not a "core rule change". Which keyword affects or not a specific unit is very much a Codex thing. Also, not ALL auras will be changed according to GW. As a result, the general core rule according to which auras affect all units and also the unit which is the source of the aura is still very much valid.
   
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Good idea for a rule. Looking forward to learning which units are Core.

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I’d also say be prepared for incredibly stupid things to slip through. Those new non-captain HQ auras etc? Watch them be core only so the Chief Apothecary who’s following around the chapter master doesn’t affect him because whoops.

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